Continuation of Christianity debate.

[jay_a2j]

just one question...were did the dinosaurs come from? pretty sure they wouldnt fit in the garden of eden.....

and mary was married to joseph for how long? and didnt have sex? imaculate conception.....reeeeaaaaalllyyyy...

And what happened to jesus between 15-30 cos it aint in that great "factual" book know as the bible.

Annnnd how about all those missing gosbels...as the bible is only made up of about 30 percent of what was written..

oh i could sit here and poke holes in religion all day but im sure i would either killed/bombed/slted/called the devil/told im going to hell etc etc.

but on one note i will add...how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion..(or should i say the difference in beliefs..


Cant we all just get along

(chuckles)

1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man.

(chuckles) bible ref pls

Genesis...... Creation days 1-5. Man created on day 6.



btw... what does the size of the Garden of Eden have to do with dinosaurs? The Garden of Eden was for MAN.

[heavycola]

just one question...were did the dinosaurs come from? pretty sure they wouldnt fit in the garden of eden.....

and mary was married to joseph for how long? and didnt have sex? imaculate conception.....reeeeaaaaalllyyyy...

And what happened to jesus between 15-30 cos it aint in that great "factual" book know as the bible.

Annnnd how about all those missing gosbels...as the bible is only made up of about 30 percent of what was written..

oh i could sit here and poke holes in religion all day but im sure i would either killed/bombed/slted/called the devil/told im going to hell etc etc.

but on one note i will add...how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion..(or should i say the difference in beliefs..


Cant we all just get along

(chuckles)

1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man.

(chuckles) bible ref pls

Genesis...... Creation days 1-5. Man created on day 6.



btw... what does the size of the Garden of Eden have to do with dinosaurs? The Garden of Eden was for MAN.

But all the animals came to the garden and were named by Adam. So i am asking you where in the bible it says that dinosaurs were made extinct, and what caused it. You haven't answered the question.

[Bertros Bertros]

just one question...were did the dinosaurs come from? pretty sure they wouldnt fit in the garden of eden.....

and mary was married to joseph for how long? and didnt have sex? imaculate conception.....reeeeaaaaalllyyyy...

And what happened to jesus between 15-30 cos it aint in that great "factual" book know as the bible.

Annnnd how about all those missing gosbels...as the bible is only made up of about 30 percent of what was written..

oh i could sit here and poke holes in religion all day but im sure i would either killed/bombed/slted/called the devil/told im going to hell etc etc.

but on one note i will add...how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion..(or should i say the difference in beliefs..


Cant we all just get along

(chuckles)

1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man.

2. immaculate conception: um yes, back in those times it was common to wait till marriage to um, do the nasty.

3. Jesus 15-30: He grew up. There are a lot of things not in the Bible. Could you imagine how much bigger it would be if everything was in it?

4. Missing Gospels: There are no missing Gospels, the ones in the Bible are the ones God wanted there.

5: Poking holes: You could go on all day making ridiculous statements but you haven't yet poked a hole.

(big deep belly laughs)

1. But God created animals and man on the same day, Saturday wasn't it? So dinosaurs existed for 10 - 15 minutes before God went on to create man?

2. Do the nasty? Geez you guys are more seriously repressed than I thought...

3. I grew up by about 21 I guess. Was Jesus a slow learner or just late hitting puberty?

4. Is God a new name for the early papacy or did I miss something and the pope got a promotion?

5. Is this about the same thing as number two?

[jay_a2j]

just one question...were did the dinosaurs come from? pretty sure they wouldnt fit in the garden of eden.....

and mary was married to joseph for how long? and didnt have sex? imaculate conception.....reeeeaaaaalllyyyy...

And what happened to jesus between 15-30 cos it aint in that great "factual" book know as the bible.

Annnnd how about all those missing gosbels...as the bible is only made up of about 30 percent of what was written..

oh i could sit here and poke holes in religion all day but im sure i would either killed/bombed/slted/called the devil/told im going to hell etc etc.

but on one note i will add...how many deaths have been caused in the name of religion..(or should i say the difference in beliefs..


Cant we all just get along

(chuckles)

1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man.

2. immaculate conception: um yes, back in those times it was common to wait till marriage to um, do the nasty.

3. Jesus 15-30: He grew up. There are a lot of things not in the Bible. Could you imagine how much bigger it would be if everything was in it?

4. Missing Gospels: There are no missing Gospels, the ones in the Bible are the ones God wanted there.

5: Poking holes: You could go on all day making ridiculous statements but you haven't yet poked a hole.

(big deep belly laughs)

1. But God created animals and man on the same day, Saturday wasn't it? So dinosaurs existed for 10 - 15 minutes before God went on to create man?

2. Do the nasty? Geez you guys are more seriously repressed than I thought...

3. I grew up by about 21 I guess. Was Jesus a slow learner or just late hitting puberty?

4. Is God a new name for the early papacy or did I miss something and the pope got a promotion?

5. Is this about the same thing as number two?

Man was created on day 6, animals were created before man. (I forget which day) No one knows how long each day was, a 24 hour day or as stated elsewhere in scripture, "a day to God is like a thousand years".

The men who chose the books to include in the Bible prayed about it and the Books in the Bible are the ones God told them to put in there.

[Bertros Bertros]

Technically, at least according to the King James version, God created the animals of the Sea and the Birds of the air on the 5th day. The animals of the land he created on the sixth day, just before creating man.

Genesis repeatedly uses the phrase; "And the evening and the morning were the x day". So its pretty clear that a day is a day, unless the Earth revolves differently for God too?

[MR. Nate]

I'm not on the "Not allowed to post to religion threads" so I'm gonna add my two centavos.

Why do you think the NT is incomplete, and compiled by the Catholic Church? The NT canon formed slowly, but was in the form as we know it by 400, possibly earlier. The papacy didn't emerge as the dominant power untill later, in 400, Christianity had only been legal for 87 years.

Why do you think that the Gnostic Gospels are just as good as the canonical ones? They're not, they're horrible and aren't logical. Read a few before deciding that they're just as good as the Bible. The reason that they weren't included in the canon is because they weren't consistent with Christian doctrine, and nobody was using them for edification.

I think what I'm trying to say, is that I don't appreciate it when people pretend to know all the reasons that Christianity is wrong without actually studying it.

[Bertros Bertros]

I'm guessing that was mainly aimed at me, Nate? I'm sorry for being a bit flippant. I do have a better understanding of the foundation of Christianity than I'm letting on and I am on the case with the Gnostic gospels since you provided some direction in the the other thread we're not banned from posting in... yet.

I don't really think of the NT as incomplete, it would be a different book if it had other content. It is selectively compiled, that we all agree on, its just a case of whether you believe God had a hand in the selection process.

I mainly wanted to have a damn good laugh at the "1. dinosaurs: were pre-garden of Eden. They had become extinct before the creation of man. " statement and got a bit carried away.

[MR. Nate]

Actually, Bertros, it was more aimed at thelewis. It seems that there are those who do not often read these posts, then fling in some idea promoted in a novel and mostly made fun of by serious scholars, and demand answers.

As for dinousarus, Jay is representing one particular theory about dinosaurs, which, by the way, I don't necessarily agree with. I have no problem with dinosaurs on earth with man. As for the Garden of Eden, we know that it was in the East and that it had a river running through it. Doesn't seem to be any special indication of size.

[Kokunai]

If God is all powerful then he should be able to forgive the sinner regardless of punishment or not. That's the nature of being all powerful.

God did have the power to forgive without the death of Jesus, but then the Bible prophecies of Jesus would not be true, making it so we could not trust Him. But God stuck with the plan to send Jesus to die for our sins, so therefore you should believe the entire Bible as the direct and true Word of God.

Caleb that is circular reasoning and your not answering the question.


The reason Christ had to die is, in order to be just God had to have an atonement for the sins, He chose blood to be that atonement. You can see this throughout the old testament as they sacrificed animals to atone but these were not permanent. Christ had to die because we needed a perfect sacrifice for the sins we committed and still commit to this day.

God is all-powerful but he is also righteous, part of being righteous is perfect justice. Without a payment for sins (or violation of the law) there would be no justice that payment is the blood of Christ. In order for the payment to fulfill God's righteous nature it had to be a perfect sacrifice, Christ was perfect in that he never sinned, he could have, but he didn't. None of us can earn our way because none of our deeds can ever make us righteous, and because of that we had to have a way provided to us.

[MR. Nate]

Kudos to Kukonai. That's about perfect.

[Kokunai]

Kudos to Kukonai. That's about perfect.

I typically try to stay out of these cause we are not going to "convince" anyone. That isn't the goal. Wish I could remember his name but a Christian writer from a few centuries ago said that it is not through the arguments that people are reached but through the Word. He was one of the guys who spread the Gospel to the Native Americans. He talked about how the educated and uneducated come to Christ, some without having a sense of history or science. Because of that truth I would rather not line out arguments. But, I look in and if I see something worth answering I try my best. Keep in mind I didn't come up with what I wrote, it is all there if you piece it together.

[heavycola]

Kudos to Kukonai. That's about perfect.

It is arbitrary and invented by humans. People have been sacrificing animals to appease gods in a huge number of cultures since civilisation began. Why did god need appeasing with his own blood? Why did he need, or choose, to do anything? How can an omniscient creator choose anything? Why the whole rigmarole? It is still unexplained because it is SO arbitrary. God doesn;t 'need' to do anything. And is god is supremely just, why is the OT filled with such slaughter in the name of Yawheh? The cruelty to women? the slavery? Is god actually supremely just?

And anyone who spread the gospels to native americans was a meddlesome, condescending, ignorant racist. God appears as jesus tens of thousands of years after aboriginal tribes began to appear... So all those poor natives were left unsaved because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And their own relatively ancient religions were, of course, wrong. So thank the lord for the white missionaries! What would the silly brown people have done otherwise?

[Kokunai]

^^ It is that dribble I try to avoid. ^^

[heavycola]

^^ It is that dribble I try to avoid. ^^

The first para? or the second? or both? Those missionaries do make me angry. Saving the poor savages etc. So perhaps a little kneejerk. But i think my questions are valid.

[Kokunai]

Kudos to Kukonai. That's about perfect.

It is arbitrary and invented by humans. People have been sacrificing animals to appease gods in a huge number of cultures since civilisation began. Why did god need appeasing with his own blood? Why did he need, or choose, to do anything? How can an omniscient creator choose anything? Why the whole rigmarole? It is still unexplained because it is SO arbitrary. God doesn;t 'need' to do anything. And is god is supremely just, why is the OT filled with such slaughter in the name of Yawheh? The cruelty to women? the slavery? Is god actually supremely just?

And anyone who spread the gospels to native americans was a meddlesome, condescending, ignorant racist. God appears as jesus tens of thousands of years after aboriginal tribes began to appear... So all those poor natives were left unsaved because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And their own relatively ancient religions were, of course, wrong. So thank the lord for the white missionaries! What would the silly brown people have done otherwise?

But, to answer you. God did not need appeasing, it is the law he set forth that requires payment. It is his hope that every man be saved, but we cannot save ourselves so we needed Him to send Christ.

Your absolutely right, God did not "need" to do anything. He chose to do it for the creation which he loves. We needed him to choose not the other way around.

The OT is full of that because that was the promise he made to the Israelites, that they would rule that land. The one's who took up that land were un appreciative of the plentiful land so God chose a people that would represent him, they had to kill because it was ordered for them to take the land. You can call it what you want but keep in mind it is God's who ultimately decides what is just and what isn't since he is the one who must uphold it. To say you can pas judgement on God is ridiculous in that he would be the supreme being who created the sytem by which you can determine the thing's that are right, and wrong. But, to think you know every nuance in the sytem makes you a fool who thinks himself wise.

Now, as to your comments on the spreading of religion to the Native American's and aboriginal tribes. Your speaking without knowledge and making yourself look very foolish. The Bible does not directly say what happens to those who never got the chance to hear the Gospel, that is up to God. I will not even pretend to know. I do know however it is better to have heard than it is to have never heard. The spreading of our religion has to do with the simple truth that it is better to be judged by the Blood of Christ than it is to be judged on your conscience which is what most scholars suggest is the judgement for those who never heard. If, for the simple fact that we have all done things against our better judgement and if that is how they will be judged it is better for them to get to decide yes or no, than it is to allow them to continue going about there way when they may be judged by their conscience.

In closing, I would like to point out that you seem to have a lot of contempt for Christianity in general. As if it is we who chose to condemn the world. You took part in it too. We all did. Which is why only Christ can save us.

[Kokunai]

^^ It is that dribble I try to avoid. ^^

The first para? or the second? or both? Those missionaries do make me angry. Saving the poor savages etc. So perhaps a little kneejerk. But i think my questions are valid.

Answered. BTW, I did not mean to take away the validity of your questions merely pointing out why I do not typically join these types of threads.

[Kokunai]

Where is the guy who rabidly attacked in one of the recruitment threads for Jesus Freaks clan then never posted in off-topic so we could truly have a discussion. This would be a nice oppurtunity for him to chime in I am in that kind of mood today.

[heavycola]

You can call it what you want but keep in mind it is God's who ultimately decides what is just and what isn't since he is the one who must uphold it.

This is presumably the justification used by abortion doctor murderers, by Fred Phelps, and by all atrocities committed in the name of god, allah, whatever. I am of course not suggesting that anything other than a tiny minority of xians and muslims think like this, but the framework is there for them to do so - as is the unshakeable belief held by hindus, jews, muslims, christians, zoroastrians, shintoists, animists, scientologists etc that their religion is the one true faith. If you believe that, you can do whatever you want in its name. And that is dangerous, and one reason why I do have contempt for organised religion as a whole.

As far as spreading god's word to savages goes, i do not feel foolish in saying that i believe mankind did very well before the white man arrived with his smallpox and his homilies and his promises of paradise. As for the scholarly opinion - that these people will be judged on their conscience - well, it seems incredibly unfair, given that god is the supreme moral arbiter and we cannot know for sure what he wants. Could be slaughtering women and children one day, child sacrifice the next, turn the other cheek the next. So these poor ignorant savages discover, at death, that they are going to be judged according to a set of rules they had no idea existed and which may have absolutely no cultural bearing on how they lived as a people...

So yes, i do have aproblem with religion, with unproveable assertions of the supernatural and promises of rewards after death for sticking to some rulebook while you are alive. My country is heading towards a secular, humanist future, and the sooner the better as far as i am concerned.

[Kokunai]

You can call it what you want but keep in mind it is God's who ultimately decides what is just and what isn't since he is the one who must uphold it.

This is presumably the justification used by abortion doctor murderers, by Fred Phelps, and by all atrocities committed in the name of god, allah, whatever. I am of course not suggesting that anything other than a tiny minority of xians and muslims think like this, but the framework is there for them to do so - as is the unshakeable belief held by hindus, jews, muslims, christians, zoroastrians, shintoists, animists, scientologists etc that their religion is the one true faith. If you believe that, you can do whatever you want in its name. And that is dangerous, and one reason why I do have contempt for organised religion as a whole.

As far as spreading god's word to savages goes, i do not feel foolish in saying that i believe mankind did very well before the white man arrived with his smallpox and his homilies and his promises of paradise. As for the scholarly opinion - that these people will be judged on their conscience - well, it seems incredibly unfair, given that god is the supreme moral arbiter and we cannot know for sure what he wants. Could be slaughtering women and children one day, child sacrifice the next, turn the other cheek the next. So these poor ignorant savages discover, at death, that they are going to be judged according to a set of rules they had no idea existed and which may have absolutely no cultural bearing on how they lived as a people...

So yes, i do have aproblem with religion, with unproveable assertions of the supernatural and promises of rewards after death for sticking to some rulebook while you are alive. My country is heading towards a secular, humanist future, and the sooner the better as far as i am concerned.

And, you have the same ability to justify atrocities if you so decide.

It may not seem fair to you but I believe that God will fairly judge those who have not heard or did not hear in their lifetime. I said that is what scholars believe from the information available. We will not know the exacts till we get there.

God, has not changed throughtout the entirety of the Bible he has remained the same. At one point we see his wrath at another his love. You seem to be taking what is said and saying he changes look at it carefully you will se that he has remained the same.

There is no rulebook. What rules do you think that there are that can get you into heaven? According to the Bible you have only to accept that Christ is Lord and Saviour and that he died upon the Cross for your sins. Whether you believe he did or not it does not change the truth. Every knee will eventually bow and proclaim Christ is Lord despite what you believe. Your belief has no bearing on the existence of God, nor the work of Christ. You seem to assume it does, that you can thumb your nose at God because he doesn't fit into your box of what Righteousness, Justice, and perfection are. He ultimately decides what constitutes those things and he decided long ago what to do with evil and he will carry out those actions before he rewards the good, but to not believe, your good works are as filthy rags before the Lord.

Christ, and only Christ can save you from your sins through the infinite grace of God. There are no other qualifications than to believe. Those who would say that there are would seek to mislead you by saying that Christ's blood was not enough and that it also depends on you. It is through unconditional love that we can reach salvation. It is available to all, all that is left is for you to ask.

[Bertros Bertros]

Every knee will eventually bow and proclaim Christ is Lord despite what you believe. Your belief has no bearing on the existence of God, nor the work of Christ.

Wow, that is probably the most arrogant and presumptuous pair of statements I have seen as of yet in a debate on this on CC forums.

Firstly. My knee will not be bowing. I will not proclaim Christ as Lord. I just don't believe it and have sinned considerably (haven't we all...) so if I'm wrong I'm on the fast trip to hell anyway.

Secondly. Sure my belief has no bearing on the existence of God, but then neither does yours.

I really want to say something about the filthy rags comment too but I am way to incensed by it to keep it civil...

[Kokunai]

Every knee will eventually bow and proclaim Christ is Lord despite what you believe. Your belief has no bearing on the existence of God, nor the work of Christ.

Wow, that is probably the most arrogant and presumptuous pair of statements I have seen as of yet in a debate on this on CC forums.

Firstly. My knee will not be bowing. I will not proclaim Christ as Lord. I just don't believe it and have sinned considerably (haven't we all...) so if I'm wrong I'm on the fast trip to hell anyway.

Secondly. Sure my belief has no bearing on the existence of God, but then neither does yours.

I really want to say something about the filthy rags comment too but I am way to incensed by it to keep it civil...

Your absolutely right that my belief has no bearing on the reality that God exists and that Christ is Lord and Saviour.

You may be incensed by the comment but it is absolutely true.

Every knee will bow whether you like it or not. It is not arrogance when it is not to me that they will bow but to Christ. He deserves all the glory He will recieve and much much more.

It is sad that you cannot keep it civil cause I would like to se more of what you have to say.

[heavycola]

WELL SAID Bertros.

Christ, and only Christ can save you from your sins through the infinite grace of God. There are no other qualifications than to believe. Those who would say that there are would seek to mislead you by saying that Christ's blood was not enough and that it also depends on you. It is through unconditional love that we can reach salvation. It is available to all, all that is left is for you to ask.

Any devout religious believer, from whichever religion or cult you care to name, can come up with a similar 'revealed truth' that they believe just as fervently. This transcendence, spirituality, mystical experience... whatever you wish to call it, is certainly real IMHO and is an often beautiful side-effect of having evolved as conscious, intelligent beings. Its downside is this sort of tubthumping rhetoric, and the entrenched belief that each religion is the one and only truth. Do you believe that had you been born in Saudi you would have grown up with the same beliefs? It's possible, but really probable?

[Bertros Bertros]

Every knee will bow whether you like it or not. It is not arrogance when it is not to me that they will bow but to Christ. He deserves all the glory He will recieve and much much more.

There is no glory in forced prostrating. I will not kneel by my own volition to yours or any other deity, so if by some means I am forced to do so against my own will, this ignoble act will bring only shame, not glory.

I'm going to catch the train home now and may come back to why I find 'filthy rags' so upsetting when I get home.

[Kokunai]

WELL SAID Bertros.

Christ, and only Christ can save you from your sins through the infinite grace of God. There are no other qualifications than to believe. Those who would say that there are would seek to mislead you by saying that Christ's blood was not enough and that it also depends on you. It is through unconditional love that we can reach salvation. It is available to all, all that is left is for you to ask.

Any devout religious believer, from whichever religion or cult you care to name, can come up with a similar 'revealed truth' that they believe just as fervently. This transcendence, spirituality, mystical experience... whatever you wish to call it, is certainly real IMHO and is an often beautiful side-effect of having evolved as conscious, intelligent beings. Its downside is this sort of tubthumping rhetoric, and the entrenched belief that each religion is the one and only truth. Do you believe that had you been born in Saudi you would have grown up with the same beliefs? It's possible, but really probable?

I am glad you brought this up. Every major religion throughout the world mentions Christ. The Jews as a teacher, the Muslims as a prophet of God, The Hindus as a diety, the Buddhists as a Bodhitsatva(sp?). And, many other religions shy from claiming to be the only way. Buddhists say they are but one path to enlightenment, outside of the radicals Islam believes that theirs is the best way but not the only way, Hindus, believe that many of their dieties control different afterlives and that you end up in one of them. Only the Jewish and Christian religions claim to be the only way. Christianity is the only one where a god provides a blood atonement for sin. You would also be hard pressed to find a religion in the history of the world that had a creator reaching out to reconcile His creation to Him.

Christianity may seem arrogant to you but for the most part is humble as we are to serve those around us not rule over them. Sure, there are examples of people using Christianity as a justification for horrible things. But you can also see many examples of man doing this on his own. That is a sympton of man's desires rather than philosophy.

If you consider it arrogant to know the true way and to try to spread that to all that you can, then I wear that title with honor. Arrogance would be for me to say I know the way and only I know the way and then not share it because you would not understand it, that my friend, is arrogance. I share out of love for those who surround me in a world that is dark, I hope to stand as a beacon of light. And, that only because of Christ who lives in me can I shine brightly to put out the darkness.

It is my hope that my words will lead to a seed being planted within your heart that some day matures to faith and brings you to the saving grace of Christ, who gave to the world a gift that he knew would be rejected by many. Yet, he gave that gift for you.

I will not respond to rants anymore. If you have questions I will gladly answer them.

[Kokunai]

Every knee will bow whether you like it or not. It is not arrogance when it is not to me that they will bow but to Christ. He deserves all the glory He will recieve and much much more.

There is no glory in forced prostrating. I will not kneel by my own volition to yours or any other deity, so if by some means I am forced to do so against my own will, this ignoble act will bring only shame, not glory.

I'm going to catch the train home now and may come back to why I find 'filthy rags' so upsetting when I get home.

You will not be forced, you will recognize Christ as Lord and that you will know you had the option to accept him as such. And, will bow because His is the Glory. You will know this but I fear it may be too late that you realize this. But, you will do it of your own volition, whether you think you will or not.