UN to investigate plight of Native Americans

[AndyDufresne]

Have you ever seen a foreigner more obsessed with America?

Were any of the Foreigner's obsessed with America?


--Andy

[Quirks Wife]

Have you ever seen a foreigner more obsessed with America?

Were any of the Foreigner's obsessed with America?


--Andy

That's one crazy conspiracy theory, Andy.

[Iron Butterfly]

I have never been a fan of the UN. Its more theater and politics then solutions. What exactly could the UN do besides shaming the US? God knows the US govt could care less about being shamed. Most educated and informed people know exactly what the conditions are and the injustices involved in its history with Native People here.

I've been to Pine Ridge several times and the conditions are appalling. The reservation system was set up to segregate and subjugate a conquered people that to this day refuse to be conquered for many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH-Z0l24h88

This thread could not do justice to the conversation needed, the actions that should be taken and the United States history of its interaction with the many nations involved.

[Symmetry]

I have never been a fan of the UN. Its more theater and politics then solutions. What exactly could the UN do besides shaming the US? God knows the US govt could care less about being shamed. Most educated and informed people know exactly what the conditions are and the injustices involved in its history with Native People here.

I've been to Pine Ridge several times and the conditions are appalling. The reservation system was set up to segregate and subjugate a conquered people that to this day refuse to be conquered for many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH-Z0l24h88

This thread could not do justice to the conversation needed, the actions that should be taken and the United States history of its interaction with the many nations involved.

This is kind of the odd attitude that I think has been kind of too prevalent within the US, and, to a lesser extent, within the UK of late. That the UN is should be a tool used by different powers to shame other states. That it's just a theatre of degrees of legitimacy. A UN report by an expert who has studied problems facing indigenous populations around the world gets dismissed because it's under the auspice of the UN.

Posting an article about it gets knee jerk reactions that I'm a foreigner attacking the US (as if the indigenous people are somehow not American?), or the typical demands that I address unrelated issues first, a standard that said posters never apply to themselves.

On your main point though, I'd be interested in a decent thread discussing the problems, and I hope that the investigation will start the kind of conversation you hope for.

[thegreekdog]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

[Symmetry]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

Hmm, think you may have gotten sidetracked by some of the posts above. As far as I can tell, the dude is just investigating, much the same as he did in South America. No allegations would be made, if any, until the report was complete.

The PDF is just a copy of the declaration. If it's not working,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples

Is the wiki on it.

[thegreekdog]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

Hmm, think you may have gotten sidetracked by some of the posts above. As far as I can tell, the dude is just investigating, much the same as he did in South America. No allegations would be made, if any, until the report was complete.

The PDF is just a copy of the declaration. If it's not working,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples

Is the wiki on it.

Investigating in the same way that the UN investigates Iran? I would say that still violates national sovereignty.

Anyway... here are some things from the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples that stand out (to me):

- The wiki icon for indigenous rights seems racist.
- If we assume "rights" means stuff that the government can't take away, here is where the US will have problems:

Article 10 (indigenous peoples cannot be forcibly removed from their land or terrorities without the free, prior and informed consent and with fair and just compensation)
Article 14 (which seems confusing, states that indigenous peoples can have their own education institutions, but that the state has to also provide educational institutions; I just note this because it seems weird)

- Why do indigenous peoples get their own list of rights? Shouldn't these rights be applicable to everyone?

[Symmetry]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

Hmm, think you may have gotten sidetracked by some of the posts above. As far as I can tell, the dude is just investigating, much the same as he did in South America. No allegations would be made, if any, until the report was complete.

The PDF is just a copy of the declaration. If it's not working,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples

Is the wiki on it.

Investigating in the same way that the UN investigates Iran? I would say that still violates national sovereignty.

Anyway... here are some things from the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples that stand out (to me):

- The wiki icon for indigenous rights seems racist.
- If we assume "rights" means stuff that the government can't take away, here is where the US will have problems:

Article 10 (indigenous peoples cannot be forcibly removed from their land or terrorities without the free, prior and informed consent and with fair and just compensation)
Article 14 (which seems confusing, states that indigenous peoples can have their own education institutions, but that the state has to also provide educational institutions; I just note this because it seems weird)

- Why do indigenous peoples get their own list of rights? Shouldn't these rights be applicable to everyone?

There is the UN Declaration on Human Rights. My take on it is that this declaration is particularly targeted towards indigenous groups that are slightly outside of normal forms of government, and that still wish to preserve their own traditions.

I kind of take the declaration as having accepted that most other groups don't require that degree of protection.

[BigBallinStalin]

There is the UN Declaration on Human Rights. My take on it is that this declaration is particularly targeted towards indigenous groups that are slightly outside of normal forms of government, and that still wish to preserve their own traditions.

That's a difficult standard to uphold. If all the individuals of an indigenous group want to preserve their own traditions, then I guess there's no problem---assuming that somehow every single one was asked and agreed to "cultural preservation." But what if some of them disagree? They're still part of that indigenous group's culture, but (as we should all know) culture isn't this homogenous blob.

[BigBallinStalin]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

Hmm, think you may have gotten sidetracked by some of the posts above. As far as I can tell, the dude is just investigating, much the same as he did in South America. No allegations would be made, if any, until the report was complete.

The PDF is just a copy of the declaration. If it's not working,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples

Is the wiki on it.

Investigating in the same way that the UN investigates Iran? I would say that still violates national sovereignty.

Anyway... here are some things from the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples that stand out (to me):

- The wiki icon for indigenous rights seems racist.
- If we assume "rights" means stuff that the government can't take away, here is where the US will have problems:

Article 10 (indigenous peoples cannot be forcibly removed from their land or terrorities without the free, prior and informed consent and with fair and just compensation)
Article 14 (which seems confusing, states that indigenous peoples can have their own education institutions, but that the state has to also provide educational institutions; I just note this because it seems weird)

- Why do indigenous peoples get their own list of rights? Shouldn't these rights be applicable to everyone?

How about this:

Article 8

Article 8 guarantees "the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture" to each indigenous people and to indigenous individuals. It requires states to effectively prevent the following actions:

"depriving [indigenous peoples] of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities"
dispossession of "lands, territories or resources"
"forced population transfer" which violates or undermines indigenous rights;
"forced assimilation or integration"
"propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethnic discrimination" against indigenous peoples

States must also provide effective redress when such actions occur.[4]

I guess the US has to give them back their land or compensate them to the tune of... $1 trillion or so??

[2dimes]

I didn't read through this but which group is the palistinians and which group is the israelis in 'merica?

[BigBallinStalin]

Article 23

Indigenous peoples have the right to determine and develop priorities and strategies for exercising their right to development. In particular, indigenous peoples have the right to be actively involved in developing and determining health, housing and other economic and social programmes affecting them and, as far as possible, to administer such programmes through their own institutions.[2]

"active involvement"

haha, I love how vague these articles can be.

[Symmetry]

Hmm, as far as I can tell, the remit of the investigation is mostly to do with modern conditions, rather than long term historical claims. No need for any weird hysteria about the US government having to "give them back their land", unless it was being encroached on currently, or reasonably recently.

My guess would be that that particular part of the declaration is more aimed toward indigenous tribes in the southern part of the Americas, especially with regards to logging and development in the Amazon.

[Iron Butterfly]

I have never been a fan of the UN. Its more theater and politics then solutions. What exactly could the UN do besides shaming the US? God knows the US govt could care less about being shamed. Most educated and informed people know exactly what the conditions are and the injustices involved in its history with Native People here.

I've been to Pine Ridge several times and the conditions are appalling. The reservation system was set up to segregate and subjugate a conquered people that to this day refuse to be conquered for many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH-Z0l24h88

This thread could not do justice to the conversation needed, the actions that should be taken and the United States history of its interaction with the many nations involved.

This is kind of the odd attitude that I think has been kind of too prevalent within the US, and, to a lesser extent, within the UK of late. That the UN is should be a tool used by different powers to shame other states. That it's just a theatre of degrees of legitimacy. A UN report by an expert who has studied problems facing indigenous populations around the world gets dismissed because it's under the auspice of the UN.

Posting an article about it gets knee jerk reactions that I'm a foreigner attacking the US (as if the indigenous people are somehow not American?), or the typical demands that I address unrelated issues first, a standard that said posters never apply to themselves.

On your main point though, I'd be interested in a decent thread discussing the problems, and I hope that the investigation will start the kind of conversation you hope for.

Well there are many conversations discussing problems and solutions. There are a lot of good organizations and groups that do their best to make a difference in so far as addressing the most simplest of needs we tend to take for granted. Things like fuel, clothing, educational materials for kids ect.

As far as the UN... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgZu6tcZU

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the UN.

[Symmetry]

I have never been a fan of the UN. Its more theater and politics then solutions. What exactly could the UN do besides shaming the US? God knows the US govt could care less about being shamed. Most educated and informed people know exactly what the conditions are and the injustices involved in its history with Native People here.

I've been to Pine Ridge several times and the conditions are appalling. The reservation system was set up to segregate and subjugate a conquered people that to this day refuse to be conquered for many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH-Z0l24h88

This thread could not do justice to the conversation needed, the actions that should be taken and the United States history of its interaction with the many nations involved.

This is kind of the odd attitude that I think has been kind of too prevalent within the US, and, to a lesser extent, within the UK of late. That the UN is should be a tool used by different powers to shame other states. That it's just a theatre of degrees of legitimacy. A UN report by an expert who has studied problems facing indigenous populations around the world gets dismissed because it's under the auspice of the UN.

Posting an article about it gets knee jerk reactions that I'm a foreigner attacking the US (as if the indigenous people are somehow not American?), or the typical demands that I address unrelated issues first, a standard that said posters never apply to themselves.

On your main point though, I'd be interested in a decent thread discussing the problems, and I hope that the investigation will start the kind of conversation you hope for.

Well there are many conversations discussing problems and solutions. There are a lot of good organizations and groups that do their best to make a difference in so far as addressing the most simplest of needs we tend to take for granted. Things like fuel, clothing, educational materials for kids ect.

As far as the UN... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgZu6tcZU

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the UN.

Cynicism is understandable. I'm also pretty cynical about the UN. I don't think it's right to take it all the way into outright dismissal though, especially when such dismissal comes from the failure of the UN to agree with a certain country or set of countries' point of view.

[thegreekdog]

On the one hand, I would expect (and want) the United States to fight compliance with this resolution/investigation/whatever.

On the other hand... hypocrisy and all that.

I'm going with the other hand - "Yeah US, you want to f*ck with everyone else's sovereignty? HOW YOU LIKE THIS?!?!"

My only question is what human rights violations are they alleging. I cannot access the PDF for some reason.

Hmm, think you may have gotten sidetracked by some of the posts above. As far as I can tell, the dude is just investigating, much the same as he did in South America. No allegations would be made, if any, until the report was complete.

The PDF is just a copy of the declaration. If it's not working,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_Indigenous_Peoples

Is the wiki on it.

Investigating in the same way that the UN investigates Iran? I would say that still violates national sovereignty.

Anyway... here are some things from the Declaration of Rights of Indigenous Peoples that stand out (to me):

- The wiki icon for indigenous rights seems racist.
- If we assume "rights" means stuff that the government can't take away, here is where the US will have problems:

Article 10 (indigenous peoples cannot be forcibly removed from their land or terrorities without the free, prior and informed consent and with fair and just compensation)
Article 14 (which seems confusing, states that indigenous peoples can have their own education institutions, but that the state has to also provide educational institutions; I just note this because it seems weird)

- Why do indigenous peoples get their own list of rights? Shouldn't these rights be applicable to everyone?

How about this:

Article 8

Article 8 guarantees "the right not to be subjected to forced assimilation or destruction of their culture" to each indigenous people and to indigenous individuals. It requires states to effectively prevent the following actions:

"depriving [indigenous peoples] of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities"
dispossession of "lands, territories or resources"
"forced population transfer" which violates or undermines indigenous rights;
"forced assimilation or integration"
"propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethnic discrimination" against indigenous peoples

States must also provide effective redress when such actions occur.[4]

I guess the US has to give them back their land or compensate them to the tune of... $1 trillion or so??

I actually typed up Article 8, then went and did something else, and then went back to repost. Suffice it to say, it was meant to be included in my list.

[BigBallinStalin]

Maybe we're multis?

[Symmetry]

Hmm, as far as I can tell, the remit of the investigation is mostly to do with modern conditions, rather than long term historical claims. No need for any weird hysteria about the US government having to "give them back their land", unless it was being encroached on currently, or reasonably recently.

My guess would be that that particular part of the declaration is more aimed toward indigenous tribes in the southern part of the Americas, especially with regards to logging and development in the Amazon.

[thegreekdog]

Maybe we're multis?

Shut up TGD.

I mean, uh...

[Symmetry]

It's why I gave the same response.

[saxitoxin]

OHHHH DAMN.

Who do you like more - Native Americans or the Earth? THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

1. The Obama administration insists they are going to build solar-power plants.
2. The Confederacy of Tribes of the Colorado River have sent a letter to Obama to stop.
3. Obama did not reply
4. The CTCR summoned a desert spirit.
5. Obama laughed - "your spirit can't stop me!"
6. The desert spirit blew some sand away and revealed a human tooth that was not detected in the pre-construction archeological survey.
7. A court has sided with the desert spirit and is now injuncting Obama's solar construction plans until a new archaeological survey is completed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... Stories%29

[Symmetry]

OHHHH DAMN.

Who do you like more - Native Americans or the Earth? THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

1. The Obama administration insists they are going to build solar-power plants.
2. The Confederacy of Tribes of the Colorado River have sent a letter to Obama to stop.
3. Obama did not reply
4. The CTCR summoned a desert spirit.
5. Obama laughed - "your spirit can't stop me!"
6. The desert spirit blew some sand away and revealed a human tooth that was not detected in the pre-construction archeological survey.
7. A court has sided with the desert spirit and is now injuncting Obama's solar construction plans until a new archaeological survey is completed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... Stories%29

I don't get it. Too much fire spirit?

[saxitoxin]

OHHHH DAMN.

Who do you like more - Native Americans or the Earth? THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.

1. The Obama administration insists they are going to build solar-power plants.
2. The Confederacy of Tribes of the Colorado River have sent a letter to Obama to stop.
3. Obama did not reply
4. The CTCR summoned a desert spirit.
5. Obama laughed - "your spirit can't stop me!"
6. The desert spirit blew some sand away and revealed a human tooth that was not detected in the pre-construction archeological survey.
7. A court has sided with the desert spirit and is now injuncting Obama's solar construction plans until a new archaeological survey is completed.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... Stories%29

I don't get it. Too much fire spirit?

So basically what's happening is -

1. The Obama administration insists they are going to build solar-power plants.
2. The Confederacy of Tribes of the Colorado River have sent a letter to Obama to stop.
3. Obama did not reply
4. The CTCR summoned a desert spirit.
5. Obama laughed - "your spirit can't stop me!"
6. The desert spirit blew some sand away and revealed a human tooth that was not detected in the pre-construction archeological survey.
7. A court has sided with the desert spirit and is now injuncting Obama's solar construction plans until a new archaeological survey is completed.

[Symmetry]

Basically, you're now drunk and trolling.

[saxitoxin]

Basically, you're now drunk and trolling.