U.S. Soldiers Plotted to Kill President Obama

[fadedpsychosis]

I'm not. I'm just offering possible reasons for their discontent.


Oh, a contract with the military isn't analogous to a civilian's--who doesn't work for the government. They can still leave. It's legal to do so. What would happen if you left the military before serving your time? You know, you just got on a plane and went back home. Wouldn't that be desertion? Surely, there would be no punishment, right? Because as a civilian, you're free to do so--if your analogy holds true.


Which reminds me! It must be demoralizing to be in the military, fixing helicopters for $30,000 a year, while the civilian contractor next to you is doing the exact job, works less hours and makes $100,000+.

So... what? A normal person gets discontent at their job so they form a plot to kill their CEO, then murder people who found out about the plot? Yeah, real stable individual there.
So here's the thing with a military contract... it's in the contract you sign. Everything is laid out in there, from the fact you are now subject to military law rather than civilian, to what rank and pay you start out at, to the length of service you're signing up for. If you don't read the legal document you're signing, that seems to me to show more a lack if intelligence on the part of the signer than anything else. Tell me, in the civilian world of contracts, what happens when you up and walk away from a contract? Do you get to walk away from it with absolutely no penalties? Are you ever likely to get a good paying job again when you have a reputation for breaking perfectly legal contracts on a whim? Tell me how any normal working class citizen (which is where the majority of the enlisted force comes from) is any less bound to their jobs by the sheer fact that no-one in the middle class or lower can afford to not work? Are they getting shot at or bombed on a regular basis? I sincerely hope not... but then people joining the military already know to expect that. Anyone who joins the military during a time of war and expects to NOT go to a war zone is a fool. You don't like it? Serve your time and get out of the military.
Now I know military service is not for everyone. I've complained about a fair amount of stuff in my time too. But if you really don't like it you have 2 options: do something to change it, or do what the contract you signed says to do and get out with the military's blessings. Most initial enlistments range from 2 to 6 years, the first part of which you're in a constant job training environment anyway.
As far as the DoD contractor thing goes, hell I'm 100% with you on that one. It's one of many things I see as a waste in the military and I think it needs to change, but you know what? I didn't agree with a lot of business practices in my previous jobs either, and quite frankly it's far less demoralizing than some of the bull I had to put up with in the civilian sector.

[saxitoxin]

Tell me, in the civilian world of contracts, what happens when you up and walk away from a contract? Do you get to walk away from it with absolutely no penalties?

You can get up and walk away from a civilian job with no direct penalty. A police officer could walk off the job in the middle of a gunfight with a bank robber and the worst penalty he could get is a bad letter of recommendation. A 95-Bravo who walks out in the middle of a similar situation could (in theory) be summarily executed by his CO.

But if you really don't like it you have 2 options: do something to change it, or do what the contract you signed says to do and get out with the military's blessings.

By organizing the overthrow of the government, weren't they doing option one?

[fadedpsychosis]

Tell me, in the civilian world of contracts, what happens when you up and walk away from a contract? Do you get to walk away from it with absolutely no penalties?

You can get up and walk away from a civilian job with no direct penalty. A police officer could walk off the job in the middle of a gunfight with a bank robber and the worst penalty he could get is a bad letter of recommendation. A 95-Bravo who walks out in the middle of a similar situation could (in theory) be summarily executed by his CO.

But if you really don't like it you have 2 options: do something to change it, or do what the contract you signed says to do and get out with the military's blessings.

By organizing the overthrow of the government, weren't they doing option one?

I'm not saying there aren't some idiocies in the military... hell the term 'military intelligence' is an oxymoron... but I wasn't really referring to direct repercussions. Say you do have a police officer who walks away like that. He'd better have skills other than police work, because I doubt any other department will hire him. Also the last time anyone was executed for desertion was back in WW2... though yes, it is still an option. Most likely what would happen is the person in question would be detained, then sent off with a dishonorable discharge after a court martial.

one last thought: do you honestly believe murder is an answer to a grievance with your chain of command? I'm not talking about the assassination plot, I'm talking about the murder of Michael Roark and his girlfriend because they found out about the plot.

[Gillipig]

I'd never join the military. So many draw backs and so few positives. Lack of freedom and rights, a very dangerous job (that goes without saying lol) and being treated poorly by your superiors. The only positive that I can think of is money but since I don't care much about money in the first place it won't weigh heavy for me. What other positives can you see fadedpsychosis?

[BigBallinStalin]

I'm not. I'm just offering possible reasons for their discontent.


Oh, a contract with the military isn't analogous to a civilian's--who doesn't work for the government. They can still leave. It's legal to do so. What would happen if you left the military before serving your time? You know, you just got on a plane and went back home. Wouldn't that be desertion? Surely, there would be no punishment, right? Because as a civilian, you're free to do so--if your analogy holds true.


Which reminds me! It must be demoralizing to be in the military, fixing helicopters for $30,000 a year, while the civilian contractor next to you is doing the exact job, works less hours and makes $100,000+.

So... what? A normal person gets discontent at their job so they form a plot to kill their CEO, then murder people who found out about the plot? Yeah, real stable individual there.
So here's the thing with a military contract... it's in the contract you sign. Everything is laid out in there, from the fact you are now subject to military law rather than civilian, to what rank and pay you start out at, to the length of service you're signing up for. If you don't read the legal document you're signing, that seems to me to show more a lack if intelligence on the part of the signer than anything else. Tell me, in the civilian world of contracts, what happens when you up and walk away from a contract? Do you get to walk away from it with absolutely no penalties? Are you ever likely to get a good paying job again when you have a reputation for breaking perfectly legal contracts on a whim? Tell me how any normal working class citizen (which is where the majority of the enlisted force comes from) is any less bound to their jobs by the sheer fact that no-one in the middle class or lower can afford to not work? Are they getting shot at or bombed on a regular basis? I sincerely hope not... but then people joining the military already know to expect that. Anyone who joins the military during a time of war and expects to NOT go to a war zone is a fool. You don't like it? Serve your time and get out of the military.
Now I know military service is not for everyone. I've complained about a fair amount of stuff in my time too. But if you really don't like it you have 2 options: do something to change it, or do what the contract you signed says to do and get out with the military's blessings. Most initial enlistments range from 2 to 6 years, the first part of which you're in a constant job training environment anyway.
As far as the DoD contractor thing goes, hell I'm 100% with you on that one. It's one of many things I see as a waste in the military and I think it needs to change, but you know what? I didn't agree with a lot of business practices in my previous jobs either, and quite frankly it's far less demoralizing than some of the bull I had to put up with in the civilian sector.

Hopefully, you realize that a civilian contract and the option to leave is not the same as a military contract which imposes extremely different costs for leaving. They're not analogous, but earlier you were saying that they were--by comparing each of them to show how "similar" they are.

A military contract is essentially a legal form of voluntary slavery. That's fine and all--assuming the recruiting agents are extremely open about all the possible problems with such a contract (hah!), but there's still a major problem. With contracts, there's all kinds of things written down, but there's an issue of implied consent and what exactly phrase "adf asf asfd" means. The employer will take it to mean one thing, while the employee will disagree. In the civilian world, contract disputes are settled in court. In the military world, there really isn't any legal redress.

So, the main point is that even if it's in the contract, there are no legal means to clarify misunderstandings, to provide the employee with a more fair deal, or even to ensure that the employer is treating its employees in a just manner. That's all I'm saying with that.

(If you say "Military Tribunals," I'll agree that they're "legal," but not fair. It would be like having your boss of some company conduct the trials and--what a surprise!--almost always ruling in its own favor).

[saxitoxin]

one last thought: do you honestly believe murder is an answer to a grievance with your chain of command? I'm not talking about the assassination plot, I'm talking about the murder of Michael Roark and his girlfriend because they found out about the plot.

They weren't planning a bank robbery or vandalism - they were definitely planning a military operation and, during the course of that operation, were fixed by an enemy reconnaissance unit (Roark and his girlfriend). They neutralized that unit. There's no difference between this and an infantry platoon in the field engaging and destroying an enemy recce team except in that case 51 senators have said it's legally acceptable. The coup plotters, by the very act of conspiracy, had already chosen to reject the legal authority of the Senate and bind themselves to a different authority which sanctioned their operation.

It seems there's not much information available at this point, however, if this were purely a political act without any other color of criminality, they should be punished as political offenders, IMO, and granted the rights of political prisoners no different than how the British government (used to) grant IRA soldiers political prisoner rights instead of classifying them as criminals. On the flipside, of course, political offenders - by rejecting the legal system - can't logically be tried in a court so they may actually prefer to be classed as common criminals if they have a solid defense. Of course this is all random musings since none of this will happen, they'll be court martialed very quickly and never be heard from again.

I'd never join the military. So many draw backs and so few positives. Lack of freedom and rights, a very dangerous job (that goes without saying lol) and being treated poorly by your superiors.

Wait - doesn't Sweden have conscription?

[fadedpsychosis]

Honestly, it's all what you want out of life. Like I said, the military definitely isn't for everyone. For me it's the free healthcare and college. I get a certain amount of money per year of college the military will pay for me while I'm in, then there's the GI bill when I get out. Also while I'm in I pay nothing for healthcare for myself, and $25 a month for my wife. This included an MRI and subsequent surgery for an injury (non-military related...) to my shoulder. Also, prior to the military I was working a dead-end job doing tech support for a dial-up company getting paid $8/hr struggling to do college... it eventually go to the point where my job quit allowing people to work overtime, so I was making less than my bills. I joined the military, and suddenly my base pay alone was more than I was making at my old job, plus most of my expenses (food, rent, and utilities) were given to me free of charge. It was certainly worth it for that alone. I was originally planning on doing 4 years and getting out... then the job market bottomed out, about the same time I realized I was more content with my actual job than I had ever been at my previous jobs. Yes, some aspects of military life suck, but you know, I think the other benefits work out in my favor... take now for instance. I'm sitting at home on my base in Italy while I type this.

[saxitoxin]

I'm sitting at home on my base in Italy while I type this.

Wait - are you in the military? Or in the Air Force?






Woodruff?!















J/K!

[fadedpsychosis]

ok, I'm gonna have to start breaking this down in order to keep track of all this...

Hopefully, you realize that a civilian contract and the option to leave is not the same as a military contract which imposes extremely different costs for leaving. They're not analogous, but earlier you were saying that they were--by comparing each of them to show how "similar" they are.

Yes they are quite different, and each of them has wildly different results if you break them... but there is still a penalty, once that can affect the rest of your life

A military contract is essentially a legal form of voluntary slavery. That's fine and all--assuming the recruiting agents are extremely open about all the possible problems with such a contract (hah!), but there's still a major problem. With contracts, there's all kinds of things written down, but there's an issue of implied consent and what exactly phrase "adf asf asfd" means. The employer will take it to mean one thing, while the employee will disagree. In the civilian world, contract disputes are settled in court. In the military world, there really isn't any legal redress.

... how is this different from wage slavery? I felt more trapped by my last civilian job than I do by my military one. Here if I don't like it, I wait for my enlistment to run out and leave... there, I knew I needed a better paying job, but I was so drained by work that when I got home all I could do was collapse at home, play video games to escape my misery, and dread waking up in the morning.

So, the main point is that even if it's in the contract, there are no legal means to clarify misunderstandings, to provide the employee with a more fair deal, or even to ensure that the employer is treating its employees in a just manner. That's all I'm saying with that.

So, the main point is that even if it's in the contract, there are no legal means to clarify misunderstandings, to provide the employee with a more fair deal, or even to ensure that the employer is treating its employees in a just manner. That's all I'm saying with that.

(If you say "Military Tribunals," I'll agree that they're "legal," but not fair. It would be like having your boss of some company conduct the trials and--what a surprise!--almost always ruling in its own favor).

In the military, you contact a military lawyer, who believe it or not is just like most other lawyers except he studies military law instead of civilian law. Yes the military law is different, but it is still a law written to protect the greatest number of people from harm... really the biggest difference in military VS civilian law is that civilian law is written to protect the individual (or it should be... don't get me started an what congress has been up to lately) whereas military law is written to protect the members of the military as a whole, and has an eye to international law as well (see the link to the Law of Armed Conflict I'll post in a bit)

They weren't planning a bank robbery or vandalism - they were definitely planning a military operation and, during the course of that operation, were fixed by an enemy reconnaissance unit (Roark and his girlfriend). They neutralized that unit. There's no difference between this and an infantry platoon in the field engaging and destroying an enemy recce team except in that case 51 senators have said it's legally acceptable. The coup plotters, by the very act of conspiracy, had already chosen to reject the legal authority of the Senate and bind themselves to a different authority which sanctioned their operation.

It seems there's not much information available at this point, however, if this were purely a political act without any other color of criminality, they should be punished as political offenders, IMO, and granted the rights of political prisoners no different than how the British government (used to) grant IRA soldiers political prisoner rights instead of classifying them as criminals. On the flipside, of course, political offenders - by rejecting the legal system - can't logically be tried in a court so they may actually prefer to be classed as common criminals if they have a solid defense. Of course this is all random musings since none of this will happen, they'll be court martialed very quickly and never be heard from again.

the Law of Armed Conflict (aka LOAC): http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/loac.htm

for starters, who granted them the authority? Themselves? Are they a nation into and of themselves? The right to declare hostilities and such is a right reserved for countries, not individuals, and those countries have agreed upon international laws to govern armed conflict to best prevent inhumane treatment. Any one individual or small group of individuals taking that impetus upon themselves are no more than terrorists and/or criminals. Yes there are countries who sanction such actions that are prohibited by said international laws (the most well known of which are the Geneva Conventions), but these individuals are citizens of the US, and we try very hard to keep to those laws (yes, I know, the US's hands are quite dirty in this respect too, but I'm trying to avoid dragging international politics into this too far).

[Gillipig]

Wait - doesn't Sweden have conscription?

We abolished conscription two years ago. Try to keep up saxi .

But seriously, even before that you wouldn't be selected to serve unless you really wanted to. And even then you'd have to be fit enough and of course judged mentally reliable before they'd let you in. It was not at all like it was during the cold war.
I had friends who did their year (I think it's a year) but I opted not to. Ironically they said I'd probably like it more than they did as I was known as a sport nut lol.

[fadedpsychosis]

I'm sitting at home on my base in Italy while I type this.

Wait - are you in the military? Or in the Air Force?


J/K!

I currently work for NATO, I live on a Navy base, and am the only non Army personnel in my unit....






but yes, I am Air Force.

[spurgistan]

I enjoyed that last sentence.