Religion is a Mental Illness

[waauw]

Why were Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln men of faith? (to anyone)

Why not?
Was it simply that that made them admirable people? If so, why wasn't everybody in Lincoln's time on his side? Were the South not people of faith?

No, I don't think just because they were men of intense faith makes them admirable. I think they were admirable because they stood up against tremendous adversity to some of the biggest challenges in all of history for the most important values and principles of humanity, and I don't think they could have come close to getting it done without intense faith and inspiration from it, that they were in fact doing the right thing for the right reasons. I don't know why everyone didn't think the exact same way, but I know they didn't. I don't know how many people of the faith were in the South during the civil war.

I'm trying to explore other reasons, besides the one you provided (killing people), that religion is good/bad/mental illness.

So what you're trying to say is that atheists are unable to do great and admirable things???????? That atheists are only able to commit horrendous acts? Keep in mind all those people in history who also claimed to have been inspired by faith and who ended up bestowing cruelties upon the earth.

The reason they were christians is because it was a mathematical probability, as they lived in a

[crispybits]

no, you're thinking of "leftism"

"religion" is the reason we aren't killing each other and nuking ourselves off the fucking planet.

crazy fucks like you are what happen when most people abandon religion

Aside from the other responses this post has already had, second generation Abrahamic religions tend to attract a small but significant minority of people who WANT the world (or just their own life) to end so that they can be taken up into the loving arms of God. You can see it in both the Christian and Islamic faiths. There have been polls done that show that over decades the percentage of people in America that believe the end of times will come during their own lifetime has remained fairly stable (and if memory serves at around 20-30% but google isn't helping me find the stats)

Also, religion is the cause of much of the conflict America is in right now. Why sit firmly on the side of the only nation within the middle east that doesn't have oil? Why force yourself to continually go in guns blazing to either directly protect Israel or to deal with the fall-out from the extremist Islamic community from the perception that Palestine has been dispossessed for what they see as a bunch of foreigners? It's certainly not freedom or democracy, or there would be plenty of other places to get involved. It's not oil, that's all over the world too (and not in Israel). It's religion, and by this I'm not claiming some batshit crazy government level plot to ensure the bible prophecies about Israel at the end of times are fulfilled (though I think there are some people for whom that is a motivation), but more that fundamentalist christian politicians have appealed to both fundamentalist and more liberal christian voters with messages in very carefully constructed black and white terms.

Look at Dubbya for easy examples. “Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war,… and we know that God is not neutral between them.” He told the world that “you are either for us or against us.” The world is, according to Bush, black or white, good or evil, friend or foe; this is absolutist language. Nothing is ever relative, it is never grey. Just like in the old westerns, good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys wear the black hats. It's very easy for a good person to commit harm against "the bad guys" if they honestly believe that they are doing something moral. Not so easy to do so when you take a more realistic look at the world and note that yes there are still bad guys, but they don't divide up easily along national or religious or political lines, no side has any right to claim the moral high ground, and everyone has a duty to use compassion and careful judgement before doing harm to another for any reason.

(But of course that's atheist morality, which is just arbitrary and never stopped anything evil happening right?)

[Gillipig]

for every religious nutjob, there are 10000 that go about living without bothering others' and their beliefs


*10000 is a number i got out of my ass

It's also coincidentally the amount of times you've put something up your ass.

[/]

no, you're thinking of "leftism"

"religion" is the reason we aren't killing each other and nuking ourselves off the fucking planet.

crazy fucks like you are what happen when most people abandon religion

If that were true, there would be no intelligent life on the planet. Animals have no religion, and sure, they fight over food, dominance, territory, etc. But they don’t try to actively try to wipe their own species off of the planet. Cooperation is natural, unless you think God made humans suckier than every single thing on the planet for some reason, religion isn't the only reason we don’t kill everything.

Why were Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln men of faith? (to anyone)

Why not?
Was it simply that that made them admirable people? If so, why wasn't everybody in Lincoln's time on his side? Were the South not people of faith?

No, I don't think just because they were men of intense faith makes them admirable. I think they were admirable because they stood up against tremendous adversity to some of the biggest challenges in all of history for the most important values and principles of humanity, and I don't think they could have come close to getting it done without intense faith and inspiration from it, that they were in fact doing the right thing for the right reasons. I don't know why everyone didn't think the exact same way, but I know they didn't. I don't know how many people of the faith were in the South during the civil war.

I'm trying to explore other reasons, besides the one you provided (killing people), that religion is good/bad/mental illness.

There are some great atheists, but most of them were content enough to stay out of harm’s way to make their legacy.
I think a major strength religion gives us is the ability to surpass our own evolutionary instincts. A normal atheist may be willing to kill for a cause, but they almost certainly aren't willing to die for one. When you think that axe to the head is going to transport you to Odin’s mead hall on the other hand, you are able to surpass your fear of death and accomplish your task by any means. In the cases of Lincoln and MLK, they were willing to do what was right even though it angered a great many people willing to kill them.

[betiko]

I think that religions were necesairy at some point because mankind needed answers and had to give itself an explanation about life after death, natural disasters/phenomenoms, give a reason to good/bad things happening to people... Mankind doesn t accept randomness and needs explanations to everything. Sciençe has brought us lots of answers since we were flintsones.

Religions have brought many values in societies. Those legacies are good. Now can we be reasonable and take the good stuff and let the outdated stuff out?

Religions make only desperate people better persons, yes. If they take stuff the right way and not like extremists who think they have a divine mission. It should be something personal. People should make their own spiritual journey and not the one dictated by one of the many books out there, and that they cannot do something in the name of a god.
Yes, faith can make people stronger. As long as they use it wisely i have no problem with that. People following word by word what is written in a book thousands of years ago are a little dumb though.

[jonesthecurl]

Why were Martin Luther King Jr. and Abraham Lincoln men of faith? (to anyone)

Why not?
Was it simply that that made them admirable people? If so, why wasn't everybody in Lincoln's time on his side? Were the South not people of faith?

No, I don't think just because they were men of intense faith makes them admirable. I think they were admirable because they stood up against tremendous adversity to some of the biggest challenges in all of history for the most important values and principles of humanity, and I don't think they could have come close to getting it done without intense faith and inspiration from it, that they were in fact doing the right thing for the right reasons. I don't know why everyone didn't think the exact same way, but I know they didn't. I don't know how many people of the faith were in the South during the civil war.

I'm trying to explore other reasons, besides the one you provided (killing people), that religion is good/bad/mental illness.

I think we're in agreement here for once: It wasn't me that said religion stops you killing people, but j9. I think that looking outside yourself for a moral code is fine. (But I do think we can find one without a divine endorsement).And of the billions who have looked to (say) the Bible for their code, there are perhaps as many Torquemadas as MLKs.

[Phatscotty]

Well Phatscotty, you are saying that religion is what prevent us of killing each other.
But, in lot of case, in the past and in the present, religion is THE REASON why we killed each other...
Some kind of a pb?

true. Mankind has come a long way

[thegreekdog]

Well Phatscotty, you are saying that religion is what prevent us of killing each other.
But, in lot of case, in the past and in the present, religion is THE REASON why we killed each other...
Some kind of a pb?

true. Mankind has come a long way

[Metsfanmax]

The 99.8% of the US prison population that is not atheist called, and wants the "crazy fucks" title back.

they also asked me to tell you that most of the world's crazy fucks aren't in prison. they also requested that you practice what you preach and stop spreading baseless claims without evidence

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... an-answer/

[john9blue]

Aside from the other responses this post has already had, second generation Abrahamic religions tend to attract a small but significant minority of people who WANT the world (or just their own life) to end so that they can be taken up into the loving arms of God. You can see it in both the Christian and Islamic faiths. There have been polls done that show that over decades the percentage of people in America that believe the end of times will come during their own lifetime has remained fairly stable (and if memory serves at around 20-30% but google isn't helping me find the stats)

Also, religion is the cause of much of the conflict America is in right now. Why sit firmly on the side of the only nation within the middle east that doesn't have oil? Why force yourself to continually go in guns blazing to either directly protect Israel or to deal with the fall-out from the extremist Islamic community from the perception that Palestine has been dispossessed for what they see as a bunch of foreigners? It's certainly not freedom or democracy, or there would be plenty of other places to get involved. It's not oil, that's all over the world too (and not in Israel). It's religion, and by this I'm not claiming some batshit crazy government level plot to ensure the bible prophecies about Israel at the end of times are fulfilled (though I think there are some people for whom that is a motivation), but more that fundamentalist christian politicians have appealed to both fundamentalist and more liberal christian voters with messages in very carefully constructed black and white terms.

Look at Dubbya for easy examples. “Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war,… and we know that God is not neutral between them.” He told the world that “you are either for us or against us.” The world is, according to Bush, black or white, good or evil, friend or foe; this is absolutist language. Nothing is ever relative, it is never grey. Just like in the old westerns, good guys wear the white hats and the bad guys wear the black hats. It's very easy for a good person to commit harm against "the bad guys" if they honestly believe that they are doing something moral. Not so easy to do so when you take a more realistic look at the world and note that yes there are still bad guys, but they don't divide up easily along national or religious or political lines, no side has any right to claim the moral high ground, and everyone has a duty to use compassion and careful judgement before doing harm to another for any reason.

(But of course that's atheist morality, which is just arbitrary and never stopped anything evil happening right?)

firstly, wouldn't you agree that bush and his ilk aren't truly practicing christianity, but simply using it for their own ends? if so, how can you blame religion itself when it is just the tool of choice for politicians to get their way? do you honestly think they wouldn't be able to use other methods of influence (like obama has done, with VERY effective results) in order to persuade people to do what they want?

secondly, what is "atheist morality"? i thought you guys didn't have any doctrine and were all freethinkers?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... an-answer/

aside from differences in polling methods (the one you linked was a survey of chaplains) there are several factors that would cause an inmate to "find jesus" (the desire for redemption, for example). is there a poll of the religious preferences of inmates before they got sent to jail?

[john9blue]

If that were true, there would be no intelligent life on the planet. Animals have no religion, and sure, they fight over food, dominance, territory, etc. But they don’t try to actively try to wipe their own species off of the planet. Cooperation is natural, unless you think God made humans suckier than every single thing on the planet for some reason, religion isn't the only reason we don’t kill everything.

most animal species are not only incapable of wiping themselves off of the planet, but also face competition from other species and are forced to cooperate. humans don't and are not.

[BigBallinStalin]

This thread:

[crispybits]

firstly, wouldn't you agree that bush and his ilk aren't truly practicing christianity, but simply using it for their own ends? if so, how can you blame religion itself when it is just the tool of choice for politicians to get their way? do you honestly think they wouldn't be able to use other methods of influence (like obama has done, with VERY effective results) in order to persuade people to do what they want?

secondly, what is "atheist morality"? i thought you guys didn't have any doctrine and were all freethinkers?

Ah the good old "no true scotsman" argument. I think that Bush wholeheartedly believed in Christianity and God, and indeed if he was batshit crazy and trying to bring about the end time prophecies of the state of Israel (and I'm not saying he was) that this would be perfectly consistent with someone who thinks that they are doing good work and they want to hasten the time when all the sinners get their punishment and all the good guys get their rewards. It makes no sense to me that more religious nuts don't take up highly dangerous hobbies and jobs so they can increase their chances of going to meet up with God early.

Just out of curiosity (and I don't have any stats on this) if you held a gun to the head of 100 devout christians, how many do you think would beg for their lives? I would bet it would be somewhere well above 80 or 90%. Why bother when they firmly believe that if I shot them they would end up in eternal paradise?

Yes there will always be many means of controlling people, but religion imo is the most insidious and odious and frankly shitty way of doing it. Because there have been other thefts does that mean the police should ignore it if someone steals your car? Because there's a famine in Sudan, does that mean we should stop sending aid to the famine sufferers in Ethiopia?

The atheist morality line was pretty much a joke - but based around that fact that religion always wants to paint a nice easy black/white line between the bad guys and the good guys, and atheists are motivated to actually look at all the factors and circumstances before making difficult shades of grey moral judgements. The thing all atheists have in common about morality is that it comes from hard thought and debate and compassion and fairness, not an easy answer from a stone age book that doesn't even make sense to the modern world (eg. Raped a girl who is a virgin? You must pay her father 50 sheckels and marry her asap!)

[BigBallinStalin]

firstly, wouldn't you agree that bush and his ilk aren't truly practicing christianity, but simply using it for their own ends? if so, how can you blame religion itself when it is just the tool of choice for politicians to get their way? do you honestly think they wouldn't be able to use other methods of influence (like obama has done, with VERY effective results) in order to persuade people to do what they want?

secondly, what is "atheist morality"? i thought you guys didn't have any doctrine and were all freethinkers?

Ah the good old "no true scotsman" argument. I think that Bush wholeheartedly believed in Christianity and God, and indeed if he was batshit crazy and trying to bring about the end time prophecies of the state of Israel (and I'm not saying he was) that this would be perfectly consistent with someone who thinks that they are doing good work and they want to hasten the time when all the sinners get their punishment and all the good guys get their rewards. It makes no sense to me that more religious nuts don't take up highly dangerous hobbies and jobs so they can increase their chances of going to meet up with God early.

Opportunity cost. What would they be missing out? (Family, friends, job, security, certainty--for many). Most believers don't truly expect that outcome consistently and frequently enough---otherwise, they'd be dropping like flies. And beyond fanatics/fundamentalists, perhaps most don't really believe that afterlife thing. They of course believe that when they die, they'll go to heaven--but they plan on dying at an old age while reaping the Earthly benefits till then, so they may think: "why stray from that plan? Sounds pretty good!"*

*Sure, that may be inconsistent reasoning, but we're talking about religious reasoning, so it makes sense in that hamster wheel.

Also, isn't there some rule against that? I know suicide is right out, but taking on dangerous tasks in order to increase one's chance of death seems like borderline rule infringement. We'll need to contact the nearest religious authorities and put them on hold for awhile.

Just out of curiosity (and I don't have any stats on this) if you held a gun to the head of 100 devout christians, how many do you think would beg for their lives? I would bet it would be somewhere well above 80 or 90%. Why bother when they firmly believe that if I shot them they would end up in eternal paradise?

Yes there will always be many means of controlling people, but religion imo is the most insidious and odious and frankly shitty way of doing it. Because there have been other thefts does that mean the police should ignore it if someone steals your car? Because there's a famine in Sudan, does that mean we should stop sending aid to the famine sufferers in Ethiopia?

The atheist morality line was pretty much a joke - but based around that fact that religion always wants to paint a nice easy black/white line between the bad guys and the good guys, and atheists are motivated to actually look at all the factors and circumstances before making difficult shades of grey moral judgements. The thing all atheists have in common about morality is that it comes from hard thought and debate and compassion and fairness, not an easy answer from a stone age book that doesn't even make sense to the modern world (eg. Raped a girl who is a virgin? You must pay her father 50 sheckels and marry her asap!)

Obviously, your feeble mind cannot begin to grasp the intricate planning of the Almighty Lord. Bend over a little more so that the priest's divine rod can guide you to the Greater Good.

[thegreekdog]

firstly, wouldn't you agree that bush and his ilk aren't truly practicing christianity, but simply using it for their own ends? if so, how can you blame religion itself when it is just the tool of choice for politicians to get their way? do you honestly think they wouldn't be able to use other methods of influence (like obama has done, with VERY effective results) in order to persuade people to do what they want?

secondly, what is "atheist morality"? i thought you guys didn't have any doctrine and were all freethinkers?

Ah the good old "no true scotsman" argument.

[waauw]

Ah the good old "no true scotsman" argument. I think that Bush wholeheartedly believed in Christianity and God, and indeed if he was batshit crazy and trying to bring about the end time prophecies of the state of Israel (and I'm not saying he was) that this would be perfectly consistent with someone who thinks that they are doing good work and they want to hasten the time when all the sinners get their punishment and all the good guys get their rewards. It makes no sense to me that more religious nuts don't take up highly dangerous hobbies and jobs so they can increase their chances of going to meet up with God early.

Just out of curiosity (and I don't have any stats on this) if you held a gun to the head of 100 devout christians, how many do you think would beg for their lives? I would bet it would be somewhere well above 80 or 90%. Why bother when they firmly believe that if I shot them they would end up in eternal paradise?

Yes there will always be many means of controlling people, but religion imo is the most insidious and odious and frankly shitty way of doing it. Because there have been other thefts does that mean the police should ignore it if someone steals your car? Because there's a famine in Sudan, does that mean we should stop sending aid to the famine sufferers in Ethiopia?

The atheist morality line was pretty much a joke - but based around that fact that religion always wants to paint a nice easy black/white line between the bad guys and the good guys, and atheists are motivated to actually look at all the factors and circumstances before making difficult shades of grey moral judgements. The thing all atheists have in common about morality is that it comes from hard thought and debate and compassion and fairness, not an easy answer from a stone age book that doesn't even make sense to the modern world (eg. Raped a girl who is a virgin? You must pay her father 50 sheckels and marry her asap!)

1) You are making rash assumptions here. You are assuming that even though some religious people value a certain after-life, they don't value their current life. This is an assumption you just can not make. People can value both.
2) Also why start talking shit about religions when you yourself admit that they are just used as a means and that they aren't per sé the cause.
3) Not all atheists are atheists because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought. Nor do all atheists support these concepts. A good example is the former soviet union or communist china, where free debate was oppressed.

There are good people on both sides and bad people on both sides, end of story.

[Metsfanmax]

3) Not all atheists are atheists because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought.

Perhaps this is true. But how many people pray to an invisible man in the sky because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought?

[waauw]

3) Not all atheists are atheists because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought.

Perhaps this is true. But how many people pray to an invisible man in the sky because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought?

It depends on where you live I guess. I know multiple christians who believe in both an invisible man and believe in compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought(without thinking "because god said so"). In my country, most of the christians left don't believe in the literal sense of the bible anymore but rather in some variation(compatible with age of enlightenment concepts and scientific theories like evolution)

I really don't understand why americans always make it atheists & agnostics vs christians.
In europe we found the solution to this. Atheists & agnostics & christians vs muslims

[thegreekdog]

3) Not all atheists are atheists because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought.

Perhaps this is true. But how many people pray to an invisible man in the sky because of compassion, fairness, debate and hard thought?

Thank you for informing me what my belief system is. I was unaware of that before. It may change my attitude now, obviously I was utterly wrong when I thought I cared about anything other than myself.
Then again, maybe you're a twit.

Seriously though...

[Teflon Kris]

"religion" is the reason we aren't killing each other and nuking ourselves off the fucking planet.

stop spreading baseless claims without evidence

I see, so, the Islamic Fundamentalst vs. George Bush Bible Bashers' Crusade is preventing nuclear war?

And, religion stopped the Yank Bible-Fundamentalists from nuking Japan, twice, when the Russians could have invaded?

From the Roman Empire, through the Crusades, into the New World and recently with the United-Statsian-Empire and its 'God Bless America' motto, "religion" has been one of the extremists' favorite political tools and excuses for mass murder and genocide.

i think the reason you believe this is because you think humans are fundamentally altruist and moral beings. and i don't... which may explain some of our political differences, as well.

It explains political difference all right and is an honest admission that the right is indeed about a belief in the dark side of humanity. Strange that those who believe in the dark side also claim humanity is made in the image of a pure-hearted God, whilst those that believe in a variety of God-characters tend to believe in humanity more. Seems like some of those who believe in hell are living it now. We pity you.

crazy fucks like you are what happen when most people abandon religion

Abandoning religion is what sadly happens when crazy fucks twist what it is supposed to be about. At least atheists dont believe in the dark side so we dont need to pity them as much.

[BigBallinStalin]

i think the reason you believe this is because you think humans are fundamentally altruist and moral beings. and i don't... which may explain some of our political differences, as well.

It explains political difference all right and is an honest admission that the right is indeed about a belief in the dark side of humanity. Strange that those who believe in the dark side also claim humanity is made in the image of a pure-hearted God, whilst those that believe in a variety of God-characters tend to believe in humanity more.

What's that mean?

Are you talking about the entire spectrum of "right-wing" politics? If so, then somehow "the left" is about the Light Side of Humanity? (lolwut).

Or are you only referring to religious political groups? If so, then why lump all types of "right-wing" groups with them?

[Gillipig]

This is what he means.

Democrats:


Republicans:

[waauw]

"religion" is the reason we aren't killing each other and nuking ourselves off the fucking planet.

stop spreading baseless claims without evidence

I see, so, the Islamic Fundamentalst vs. George Bush Bible Bashers' Crusade is preventing nuclear war?

And, religion stopped the Yank Bible-Fundamentalists from nuking Japan, twice, when the Russians could have invaded?

From the Roman Empire, through the Crusades, into the New World and recently with the United-Statsian-Empire and its 'God Bless America' motto, "religion" has been one of the extremists' favorite political tools and excuses for mass murder and genocide.

Now, I don't know what kinda propaganda you guys are hearing over there in the USA, but concerning the Bush-policy it was driven out of financial-economic(oil) and geopolitical motivations(hitting oil-supply of China and Russia).

[crispybits]

I think the point is that the mental illness of religion lies not with the calculating bastards at the top, but with the population who are willing to blindly follow them into atrocities because "God is on OUR side - yeeehaw I love 'Murica!"