Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[CoffeeCream]

Well, if you're taking a world religions class, it would probably be helpful to know that Catholics do endorse evolution. And no, nature did not "magically" select species to survive and thrive, because nature has no will. Natural selection is a perfectly reasonable concept, however. You can't really deny that if something has unhelpful traits, it will die before it can reproduce. Multiply this process by 3 billion years (give or take) and I don't doubt that the result could be what we have today.

Nonetheless, we believe that humans are God's special creation, for a few reasons, but one of these is simply that humans seem to be the only creatures with a knowledge of God.

Well then this is confusing because I hear from some Christians that you believe the world was supernaturally created - BAM! Or at least you think he did it in 7 days. Now you're telling me that it is evolution. If evolution is true then how did sin come into being? Did sin evolve? I don't see how you account for death, disease, etc. if you believe in evolution. I'm not saying I have the answer but it doesn't seem to me that christianity and evolution can both be true at the same time unless you say that your God created the world in with the specific intent of letting it evolve. Something like God created evolutionary processes.

He created the angels, but gave them free will so they may freely love him. He certainly knew the consequences this action would have, but apparently freely given love is more valuable to God than the pain which free will would cause.

As for why he allowed man to eat the apple, well that's simple enough - preventing him from doing so would be a violation of free will.

Hmmmm. This one has got me thinking. I've heard it before but not stated like that.

Well, we believe that he did come down and show himself to everyone. That's what Jesus was all about. Dying for us certainly shows that he is interested in us.

As for proving it, no, you really can't, not empirically, but trying to empirically prove that the existence of an immaterial being seems kind of useless, doesn't it?

You're basically saying the same thing as Goop. So this God became an actual human being. That seems like a lot of trouble to go through instead of just waving his hand and declaring himself to everyone. I get both of your points. So how do you justify that he constantly called himself the son of God. How can someone be both the son of God and actually God at the same time?

The moral issue Christians are generally most associated with is that of abortion. And the thing is, we believe that abortion IS killing someone.

Other issues, such as gay marriage, I really don't have much of a stance on to begin with. I personally think it's wrong and a sin, but I don't think that a secular state has the right to legislate against it.

Which goes back to free will on the abortion thing. I would never personally pay for an abortion. But there are people who are in bad circumstances that need to have it available. If God is for free will then he shouldn't be mad when someone exercises that free will in the form of an abortion. With gay marriage I think that's just silly. You don't need Christianity or the Bible to say it's wrong. It's obviously anatomically impossible for 2 men having sex to have a baby or 2 women for that matter. This is one reason why I believe there is a creator somewhere. I don't think it's just coincidence that men and women anatomically compliment each other. However, I can't recall hearing even one verse from your holy book where Jesus spoke against homosexuality. Maybe you do.

Whether or not you accept Jesus is of fundamental importance to salvation, because we believe that Jesus IS your salvation. However, the culpability of not accepting Jesus can be diminished by any number of things. Maybe the Christians in your life are jerks, and are thus driving you away from Christ more than drawing you to him. Or maybe you have legitimate, reasonable concerns about Christianity which are never addressed. Or maybe you just never heard the Good News in its truth.

No. Every Christian I've met or talked to is a nice person. I was really shocked to see all the hatred exhibited here against you guys. I'm not paranoid of you people. You're some of the best tippers in the cafe where I work at! It's not you guys personally that I have a problem with but it's your inability to explain inconsistencies in what you believe.
I ask people I know who are Christians these same things and they usually just say "you gotta have faith". Well I need a little more than that.

Now, on the topic of "living a good life" - you have to tread softly in this area, because we cannot know the motives behind someone's "good life". A supposedly good external life could be due to less-than-sincere motives. Humility is required in addition to good works.

Now, about Hell - we believe that it is a choice freely made. God is simply not going to stop you from making it. This freely made choice ALWAYS boils down to a lack of love for God. Like I said, God gave us the free will to freely love him - or not. Idea is, without loving God, who created you, who is your very reason for being, you can't be happy.

Granted on the motives part. On the free will thing I'm still not convinced.

Here's an interesting thing I'll pose to you.

Assuming there is a God (an assumption we both agree on), where did the idea that a God exists come from? Since everything presumably came from God, this idea clearly must have come from God as well. Would an apathetic God give us the idea that he exists?

I don't know how to answer this. But I do believe that a loving God would be more involved. That's my opinion and I have no way to back it up with facts.

[OnlyAmbrose]

Great talking with you CoffeeCream, I can tell I'm going to enjoy this thread. You're very respectful in your viewpoints and perfectly reasonable

Here's one thing I'd like to say before I make my counterpoints though- Christians do NOT know everything there is to know about God and his ways, and no one ever will in this life - just as we don't know everything about science and it's ways. No one can explain why an electron follows the path it does. We will try, and we will look into it and try to explain it, and once we finally do, there will be a new mystery.

A common misconception that many skeptics (and I do consider myself a skeptic) make is that just because Christians don't know the answer, that automatically makes them wrong. Certainly not the case. We believe that there are many mysteries.

That being said, I will continue:

Well then this is confusing because I hear from some Christians that you believe the world was supernaturally created - BAM! Or at least you think he did it in 7 days. Now you're telling me that it is evolution. If evolution is true then how did sin come into being? Did sin evolve? I don't see how you account for death, disease, etc. if you believe in evolution. I'm not saying I have the answer but it doesn't seem to me that christianity and evolution can both be true at the same time unless you say that your God created the world in with the specific intent of letting it evolve. Something like God created evolutionary processes.

Protestants and Catholics differ on this issue. The belief of the Catholic Church is that human reason will aid in our search for God. For most of us Catholics, reason has led us to believe that evolution is how the organisms around us came about.

Sin is not something which "evolves". When I'm talking about evolution, I'm talking about physical, tangible traits evolving and changing. Animals can't sin, because they have no souls. Human sin comes about when a human freely chooses not to love God, through some act. This isn't something that "evolves".

The evolution of biological organisms and the state of the soul are two very different things. Souls don't evolve - organisms do.

Hmmmm. This one has got me thinking. I've heard it before but not stated like that.

Glad I could be of service

You're basically saying the same thing as Goop. So this God became an actual human being. That seems like a lot of trouble to go through instead of just waving his hand and declaring himself to everyone. I get both of your points. So how do you justify that he constantly called himself the son of God. How can someone be both the son of God and actually God at the same time?

We believe that he has declared himself to everyone, and that everyone has the faculties to know of him. Reason, emotion, and other things are some of these faculties. It only makes sense that it takes intangible methods to discover an intangible being.

The reasons for Christ's sacrifice boil down to the essential rebellion of man in putting himself before God. It is clear to see, however, through the brutal nature of Christ's death, that God puts man before himself.

Which goes back to free will on the abortion thing. I would never personally pay for an abortion. But there are people who are in bad circumstances that need to have it available. If God is for free will then he shouldn't be mad when someone exercises that free will in the form of an abortion.

God is not for free will in the capacity that you should do whatever you want and he won't have a problem with it.

He is for free will in that you may freely sin or not sin.

Abortion, we believe, is murder. There are federal laws against murder. Therefore, we believe that there should be federal laws against abortion.

However, I can't recall hearing even one verse from your holy book where Jesus spoke against homosexuality.

I can't think of Jesus ever speaking about it, but he didn't have to. God already laid down the law on that in the old testament.

It's not you guys personally that I have a problem with but it's your inability to explain inconsistencies in what you believe.

Well here's to hoping we can solve this problem

Granted on the motives part. On the free will thing I'm still not convinced.

What's not to get? To live with God, you must love him. God is not going to MAKE you love him, or else it's obviously not love.

If you rebel against God, you can't live with him. That's why Satan went to Hell.

It's a choice freely made - love or rebel.

I don't know how to answer this. But I do believe that a loving God would be more involved. That's my opinion and I have no way to back it up with facts.

What makes you think God is not involved?

Forgive the rough metaphor, I'm sort of making it up as I go.

When you buy a fruit at your local grocery store, you don't generally think that there was a tree which must have existed for said fruit to grow. You KNOW there must have been a tree, but when you pick up the fruit, your mind isn't on that tree. We believe that God acts very much in the capacity of said tree.

[Jenos Ridan]

Good points Ambrose, I'm not going to highlight any 'winners', they're all good.

[muy_thaiguy]

Ambrose, I'm with jay on the evolution thing, just to let you know.

[d.gishman]

Who are we to say someone stealing food to feed themselves or the such is wrong? Technically we belong to the earth, and so does everything on this planet. So what gives us the right to say, no you can't have or do that. Moreover the point, who gives us the right to judge our fellow man or woman as good or evil, pure or dark. When in reality we are just part of an ecosystem trying to survive.

Okay, let me go over to your house and steal all your stuff.

[silvanricky]

Who are we to say someone stealing food to feed themselves or the such is wrong? Technically we belong to the earth, and so does everything on this planet. So what gives us the right to say, no you can't have or do that. Moreover the point, who gives us the right to judge our fellow man or woman as good or evil, pure or dark. When in reality we are just part of an ecosystem trying to survive.

Okay, let me go over to your house and steal all your stuff.

I wish I could make this my signature.

I for one refuse to believe we belong to the earth. If that was true then that would mean we all belong at least partly to New Jersey.

[Visaoni]

I should define what I believe so we're all clear here. First of all I think the idea of evolution to be silly. Nature just magically selected certain species to survive and thrive? No way! There's too many holes in the theories and nobody's been able to prove it. The people who believe in it are welcome to it, but they've been given enough time to produce the evidence and they never are able to. There's too much complexity and design in the world for me to deny that there is some type of supreme being or higher power. If you want to call it God then go ahead.

So... going to a very simple, classic example of Darwin's Finches. You think each island had a slightly different version of a finch just because some supreme power decided to be nice and put them there, and then you go on to say you don't think he cares about us? So why would he care about some finches?

There is nothing magical about evolution. Nothing at all. How is it magical that those most fit for their environment survive, and those who aren't don't? Oh right! I remember. The animal who is poorly adapted to surviving has as much of a chance to reproduce as one who has all the traits required to thrive. Wait. Huh? What if the poorly adapted one up and dies because uh you know, they can't get food as easily, or get too hot/cold, etc. Think man. Think!

[joecoolfrog]

What is the difference between believing in God and believing in the Easter Bunny ?.......Very few if any people have died arguing about the Easter Bunny or the various interpretations of him.
The above sentence is trite and may be offensive to some but its a fact that arguements about religion have caused endless strife,believe whatever you like but just keep it to yourself .

[satanspaladin]

I have question if i may to jf why did GOD lie to adam & eve .

In genesis he say you you must not eat the fruit of knowledge ,if you do you will die the same day .

It was the snake (evil /devil) that told eve she would not die on that same day.

Question why is it in the book of job god gives one of his own most faithful to satan ""ALL RIGHt" the lord said to satan every thing he has is in your power .

So god lets satan kill all of jobs servants to provea point ,not very merciful
this God .

he then let's satan give job more testing,

"God did you notice my servant job there is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is .

Satan a man will give up everything in order to stay alive ,but now suppose you hurt his body , he will curse you ti your face!

and god most faithful was put to the test one more till job finally broke the silence and curesd the day on which he had been born.

So satan the father off lies ? tell the truth, job cursed god to his face

But to be fair to God he did pay recompense for job woe .

In revelation its 144,000 people of israle will get in to god's kingdom
being kind I dont think he just ment any one from thr land we call israle did he ?

Any one want to workout the percentage 144,000 is of the billions that have lived and are going to be born.

No one would go to the casinos with odd's that bad

[AlgyTaylor]

Is gravity still classed as a theory?

I don't know why people like to bring this up, it is a law, Evolution is a theory, and that's how I have been taught, and that is how I have learned it.

Fucking hell ...
A THEORY IN SCIENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS A THEORY IN DISCUSSION

And Gravity isn't a law, it's a theory. Theory in science being akin to 'a model'.

[ignotus]

Credo quia absurdum.
Credo ut intelligam. (Saint Augustin)

[CoffeeCream]

God created Lucifer, an angel, who later rebelled against God. Being thrown out of Heaven and given the name Satan. Lucifer chose, of his own free will, to rebel. Apple... again is free will. We can tell our children not to do something.... it's up to them to listen and not do it. (By the way I fully reject evolution....sorry OA):D

War is man's free will. God has given us free will and for good reason. (He wants us to love Him because we want to, not because we have no other choice). God intervenes in war, according to His plan. Look at the 6 day war Israel was involved in....there is no explanation why Israel still exists other than divine intervention.

Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

People can do whatever they want to. Christians are standing up for what is "just" in the eyes of God. However, this is futile as long as sin remains in the world. The world will never be as God would have it, at least not until He comes back to rule over it.

What separates us from God is sin. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Jesus came and sacrificed Himself so that we could be forgiven. And upon excepting that forgiveness by repenting and turning and following Christ we are given eternal life by His grace. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved". 1 sin or 1,000,000 sins you are separated from God and need to be cleansed of that sin to be able to have a relationship with God. Jesus provided the way.

We send ourselves to hell by rejecting God.

Jay please don't think I'm ignoring your points. There are 3 of you that have responded so far and you're pretty all much making the same points. Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs. I still think you haven't explained the inconsistency of free will, but at least you took the time to try. Thanks.

It seems that for the most part you Christians think free will is important, or at least you think it is important to your God. The problem I have with that is that if God is really all knowing then he wouldn't have allowed the free will of disobedience to have taken place. To me that's not a loving thing to do. It almost seems like a mean trick to play on mankind. So since I disagree with your take on it I'll at least listen to why you seem to think it's not an inconsistency.

I hear you on the whole 'world will never be perfect as long as there is sin in it' thing. My point is why was sin even allowed in the first place.

Don't mistake my disagreements with your beliefs with those here who are addicted to insulting you. It seems that you bring most of that on yourself in my opinion, but at least you haven't swerved from what you believe. I think that's the most intriguing thing in my opinion. Why would someone like yourself be willing to subject themselves to constant criticism and hate. I'm not saying you're right, but it does seem like there must be something to what you believe or else you wouldn't be willing to endure the negativity.

[MeDeFe]

It's even worse than that, CoffeCream, if god exists and is omniscient, free will is impossible. At best we have the illusion of a choice.

[heavycola]

Now Coffee Cream, He didn't know Satan would rebel, he can't see the future. God gave angels free will too. And he didn't create evil, good and evil had existed even before him

But time doesn't work like that, especially not if you are an omniscient being. Does god exist outside of time? Or inside? If he exists inside, how can he be eternal? if he exists outside time, how can he be ignorant of what happens in the 'future'?

[MR. Nate]

What is the difference between believing in God and believing in the Easter Bunny ?.......Very few if any people have died arguing about the Easter Bunny or the various interpretations of him.
The above sentence is trite and may be offensive to some but its a fact that arguements about religion have caused endless strife,believe whatever you like but just keep it to yourself .

If you truly believed that, shouldn't you have kept it to yourself?

I have question if i may to jf why did GOD lie to adam & eve .

In genesis he say you you must not eat the fruit of knowledge ,if you do you will die the same day .

It was the snake (evil /devil) that told eve she would not die on that same day.

Question why is it in the book of job god gives one of his own most faithful to satan ""ALL RIGHt" the lord said to satan every thing he has is in your power .

So god lets satan kill all of jobs servants to provea point ,not very merciful
this God .

he then let's satan give job more testing,

"God did you notice my servant job there is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is .

Satan a man will give up everything in order to stay alive ,but now suppose you hurt his body , he will curse you ti your face!

and god most faithful was put to the test one more till job finally broke the silence and curesd the day on which he had been born.

So satan the father off lies ? tell the truth, job cursed god to his face

But to be fair to God he did pay recompense for job woe .

In revelation its 144,000 people of israle will get in to god's kingdom
being kind I dont think he just ment any one from thr land we call israle did he ?

Any one want to workout the percentage 144,000 is of the billions that have lived and are going to be born.

No one would go to the casinos with odd's that bad

Perhaps God had mercy on Adam and Eve? Usually withheld punishment doesn't draw the ire of the disobedient.

So God says: You may do to Job what you want to, Satan. And you blame God for Satan's evil? And since when do we get to decide how long a person is to live? Job never cursed God. He questioned God, which we are all apt to do from time to time, but when God reminded him of who he was dealing with, he humbled himself.

As for the 144,000 - Keep reading. Immediately after these people were sealed, an uncountable number of people "from every tribe & tongue & nation" stand before God and attest to his saving them. So the first group is set apart for some specific reason, but is certainly not the final number of who will be in heaven.

It's even worse than that, CoffeCream, if god exists and is omniscient, free will is impossible. At best we have the illusion of a choice.

How does God's knowledge of our choice change the fact that we choose it freely? The second I saw this in the forum, I knew that backglass would post. But I don't think I MADE him, I'm pretty sure he chose it himself.

[red bull]

Now Coffee Cream, He didn't know Satan would rebel, he can't see the future. God gave angels free will too. And he didn't create evil, good and evil had existed even before him

But time doesn't work like that, especially not if you are an omniscient being. Does god exist outside of time? Or inside? If he exists inside, how can he be eternal? if he exists outside time, how can he be ignorant of what happens in the 'future'?

lol it seems i am trying to pick a fight with you heavy {that if it was one on one with you and me i think i woul shurly lose } but you have to remember i dont think static ice is talking about the god you are thinking of {the christian God } he is talking about his god from what i picked up ... correct me if im wrong static .. but any way

i believe god can for see the future ... or else how would he be able to give others the gife of for sight but in at the same time he is also eternal ... as it says in the bible he also controls time i would think ...

[joecoolfrog]

What is the difference between believing in God and believing in the Easter Bunny ?.......Very few if any people have died arguing about the Easter Bunny or the various interpretations of him.
The above sentence is trite and may be offensive to some but its a fact that arguements about religion have caused endless strife,believe whatever you like but just keep it to yourself .

If you truly believed that, shouldn't you have kept it to yourself?

I have question if i may to jf why did GOD lie to adam & eve .

In genesis he say you you must not eat the fruit of knowledge ,if you do you will die the same day .

It was the snake (evil /devil) that told eve she would not die on that same day.

Question why is it in the book of job god gives one of his own most faithful to satan ""ALL RIGHt" the lord said to satan every thing he has is in your power .

So god lets satan kill all of jobs servants to provea point ,not very merciful
this God .

he then let's satan give job more testing,

"God did you notice my servant job there is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is .

Satan a man will give up everything in order to stay alive ,but now suppose you hurt his body , he will curse you ti your face!

and god most faithful was put to the test one more till job finally broke the silence and curesd the day on which he had been born.

So satan the father off lies ? tell the truth, job cursed god to his face

But to be fair to God he did pay recompense for job woe .

In revelation its 144,000 people of israle will get in to god's kingdom
being kind I dont think he just ment any one from thr land we call israle did he ?

Any one want to workout the percentage 144,000 is of the billions that have lived and are going to be born.

No one would go to the casinos with odd's that bad

Perhaps God had mercy on Adam and Eve? Usually withheld punishment doesn't draw the ire of the disobedient.

So God says: You may do to Job what you want to, Satan. And you blame God for Satan's evil? And since when do we get to decide how long a person is to live? Job never cursed God. He questioned God, which we are all apt to do from time to time, but when God reminded him of who he was dealing with, he humbled himself.

As for the 144,000 - Keep reading. Immediately after these people were sealed, an uncountable number of people "from every tribe & tongue & nation" stand before God and attest to his saving them. So the first group is set apart for some specific reason, but is certainly not the final number of who will be in heaven.

It's even worse than that, CoffeCream, if god exists and is omniscient, free will is impossible. At best we have the illusion of a choice.

How does God's knowledge of our choice change the fact that we choose it freely? The second I saw this in the forum, I knew that backglass would post. But I don't think I MADE him, I'm pretty sure he chose it himself.

A trite response to an awkward point - predictable !
I was neither supporting the Easter bunny nor any other Icon so your jibe was irelevent, care to try again ?

[heavycola]

How does God's knowledge of our choice change the fact that we choose it freely? The second I saw this in the forum, I knew that backglass would post. But I don't think I MADE him, I'm pretty sure he chose it himself.

[Backglass]

How does God's knowledge of our choice change the fact that we choose it freely? The second I saw this in the forum, I knew that backglass would post. But I don't think I MADE him, I'm pretty sure he chose it himself.

As I knew it would be the same tired "Ya just GOTTA BELIEVE!" lemming fest.

Wait a minute though...I DID eat a grilled cheese sandwich that day...COINCIDENCE?!

[satanspaladin]

Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin

[CoffeeCream]

Great talking with you CoffeeCream, I can tell I'm going to enjoy this thread. You're very respectful in your viewpoints and perfectly reasonable

Here's one thing I'd like to say before I make my counterpoints though- Christians do NOT know everything there is to know about God and his ways, and no one ever will in this life - just as we don't know everything about science and it's ways. No one can explain why an electron follows the path it does. We will try, and we will look into it and try to explain it, and once we finally do, there will be a new mystery.

A common misconception that many skeptics (and I do consider myself a skeptic) make is that just because Christians don't know the answer, that automatically makes them wrong. Certainly not the case. We believe that there are many mysteries.

Alright it's nice to see that when you don't know something you admit it. You do realize you will be in the minority by owning up to that don't you?

It would appear by your statement that for you it doesn't seem that 'knowing' God is possible. Yet I hear people preaching on tv that it is necessary to 'know' God in order to go to heaven. It's confusing but maybe that's not what you meant.

Protestants and Catholics differ on this issue. The belief of the Catholic Church is that human reason will aid in our search for God. For most of us Catholics, reason has led us to believe that evolution is how the organisms around us came about.

Which is another problem I have with Christianity. If there is a personal God then he would clearly communicate what he wants. Either for us or from us (or both). Why do those who claim to follow him have disagreements on what His message is? I'm not disagreeing with your stance on using human reason. After all, I have reasoned that there must be some sort of creator. If someone believes differently I usually don't argue with them about it but I've reasoned that there is too much complexity and design to ignore it. You know I look at a table and know that someone made the table, and I think it's reasonable to look at the world and people and say it couldn't have all been a mistake.

However, I also think it's reasonable to ask why God's supposed followers have different churches & denominations. I know the historical reasons. What I'm asking is why did the disagreements have to happen if they all believe in the same deity.

Sin is not something which "evolves". When I'm talking about evolution, I'm talking about physical, tangible traits evolving and changing. Animals can't sin, because they have no souls. Human sin comes about when a human freely chooses not to love God, through some act. This isn't something that "evolves".

The evolution of biological organisms and the state of the soul are two very different things. Souls don't evolve - organisms do.

Ok I won't dispute this. It's your opinion. I still don't see how you can believe in the Christian god & evolution at the same time. It would seem to me that they are 2 contradictory explanations for the beginning of the world. The only way I could reconcile them is if God created the world but also created the evolutionary process.

We believe that he has declared himself to everyone, and that everyone has the faculties to know of him. Reason, emotion, and other things are some of these faculties. It only makes sense that it takes intangible methods to discover an intangible being.

The only way I think he's 'declared' himself is through creation. Other than that I don't know. I have read some of the Bible and know that God communicated with people. In order to believe that you would have to know that the Bible was given to us from God himself.

What about people who have mental disorders? Would they also have the ability to reason that God exists and 'know' him. (I'm just using that word because it's what I hear on tv).

The reasons for Christ's sacrifice boil down to the essential rebellion of man in putting himself before God. It is clear to see, however, through the brutal nature of Christ's death, that God puts man before himself.

I sure wouldn't want to be considered as someone who is rebelling against God. I think Christ's death was tragic. The Romans should not have done it. He was just encouraging people to be more kind because that's what God would want. It seems what you are saying is that he went ahead and let it happen on purpose.

God is not for free will in the capacity that you should do whatever you want and he won't have a problem with it. He is for free will in that you may freely sin or not sin.

I think I get your point on this now. To me it had always seemed a little 'cat and mouse'. Ok, that makes sense.

What's not to get? To live with God, you must love him. God is not going to MAKE you love him, or else it's obviously not love.

If you rebel against God, you can't live with him. That's why Satan went to Hell.

It's a choice freely made - love or rebel.

Well if it was possible and assuming I could survive the experience, I think it would be cool to 'live with God' but I'm not sure what that would all mean. Why would I want to continue to put up with all the garbage on this earth? Is Satan already in hell? How come people supposedly get demon possessed then? Never mind, maybe you can just explain to me what hell is to you in the first place.

What makes you think God is not involved?

Forgive the rough metaphor, I'm sort of making it up as I go.

When you buy a fruit at your local grocery store, you don't generally think that there was a tree which must have existed for said fruit to grow. You KNOW there must have been a tree, but when you pick up the fruit, your mind isn't on that tree. We believe that God acts very much in the capacity of said tree.

I don't think God is involved because if he was there would be less suffering in the world. It's easy to see that there is plenty of evil here. A loving God would eradicate it. Yes, your tree analogy is similar to my table analogy.

[red bull]

Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin

could i ask where he lied to them please ?

[satanspaladin]

Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin

could i ask where he lied to them please ?

He told them thay would die in genesis if thay ate of the fruit of knowledge.

His words "if yo do ,you will die the same day. but thay did not die that day .so a lie?

[MeDeFe]

It's even worse than that, CoffeCream, if god exists and is omniscient, free will is impossible. At best we have the illusion of a choice.

How does God's knowledge of our choice change the fact that we choose it freely? The second I saw this in the forum, I knew that backglass would post. But I don't think I MADE him, I'm pretty sure he chose it himself.

No, you didn't know, you extrapolated from previous observations and formed the opinion that Backglass posting in this thread was likely. But you didn't know he would do it.
If god exists however and is omniscient, i.e. knows of everything that has, does and will happen in the past, present and future there cannot be any free will.
Knowledge, as I know the definition from theoretical philosophy 101, is "true, well-founded opinion" (this is a direct translation from German, so opinion is only close enough, but not 100% right). If we leave the well-founded at "it's god we're talking about", then gods opinion of what is going to happen must be true if it is to be considered knowledge. And if it is true, then there is no choice for us, if god knows I'm going to keep the wallet I found instead of calling the rightful owner and telling him I found his wallet before I do it I never had a choice in the matter, at most I had the illusion of a choice. If I had a choice god couldn't know what I would do, at most he could do what you did, extrapolate from previous observations and form an opinion of what is the likeliest course of events.

Sin is not something which "evolves". When I'm talking about evolution, I'm talking about physical, tangible traits evolving and changing. Animals can't sin, because they have no souls. Human sin comes about when a human freely chooses not to love God, through some act. This isn't something that "evolves".

The evolution of biological organisms and the state of the soul are two very different things. Souls don't evolve - organisms do.

Ok I won't dispute this. It's your opinion. I still don't see how you can believe in the Christian god & evolution at the same time. It would seem to me that they are 2 contradictory explanations for the beginning of the world. The only way I could reconcile them is if God created the world but also created the evolutionary process.

Well, the theory of evolution does not attempt to explain the beginning of the world or even the origin of life. Darwin's book doesn't have the title "The origin of species" for nothing.

Mr Nate I will keep reading the bible I may even get to like it .

I think I've heard it called the greatest story ever told ?.

And yes god was merciful to Adam & eve but i still don't understand why
God would need to lie to them in the first place ?

Is lying not a sin :?

could i ask where he lied to them please ? :)

He already said it, but here it is again.

In genesis he say you you must not eat the fruit of knowledge ,if you do you will die the same day .

It was the snake (evil /devil) that told eve she would not die on that same day.

[CrazyAnglican]

Hi Satanspaladin,

Like the name by the way. Here’s my answer. I’m not generally one to quote scripture, but it seems I have to given that you brought these particular stories up to support your argument.

I have question if i may to jf why did GOD lie to adam & eve .

In genesis he say you you must not eat the fruit of knowledge ,if you do you will die the same day .

It was the snake (evil /devil) that told eve she would not die on that same day.

It seems that you are stretching a bit to make this point. Of the four versions, I checked, two mentioned nothing at all about when the death would occur (Gen. 2:17 NIV & LV). The other two merely say on the day you eat of it you will die (Gen. 2:17 KJV & RSV). Which might mean what you say, but my understanding was that death wasn’t a part of the plan until the Fall of Man, so they could just be a warning that death will come eventually. Certainly in light of the uncertainty about this point it can’t be a reliable indictment.
They did in fact die, so if God spared them for a few years it only meant that he was merciful not that he was a liar. Satan said they wouldn’t die as a result of that eating of the tree which is clearly a lie within the context of the story.

Question why is it in the book of job god gives one of his own most faithful to satan ""ALL RIGHt" the lord said to satan every thing he has is in your power .

Yeah! Isn’t this one of Satan’s boldest moves. It certainly shows the nature of Satan in that it’s one of two times that he tries to tempt God. If he’ll try that he’ll think nothing of tempting me. Look at your argument here though. Isn’t God protecting Job and all of his family and property from Satan up until, and after, this point? Doesn’t that presuppose that God loves and cares for his faithful, and that only the strangest or most unique situation would cause him to surrender one of his own for such a rigorous test by Satan?

So god lets satan kill all of jobs servants to provea point not very merciful this God .

Yes, but Satan actually did the killing, and the whole situation was Satan’s idea, right? God takes those who were faithful and spirits them away to Heaven (according Church doctrine). This sounds pretty merciful to me. The ones who weren’t faithful did not get such good treatment from Satan (according to the same doctrine).

he then let's satan give job more testing,

"God did you notice my servant job there is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is .

Satan a man will give up everything in order to stay alive ,but now suppose you hurt his body , he will curse you ti your face!

and god most faithful was put to the test one more till job finally broke the silence and curesd the day on which he had been born.

Right he never did curse God. The closest he comes is to maintain his innocence and ask for God to tell him what he has done wrong. In humility Job even repents of his pride and admits that he has come to greater understanding after his ordeal. God was right. Job was faithful. Satan was a persecutor and a liar.

So satan the father off lies ?

Yes.

tell the truth, job cursed god to his face

I do not think he did. Cite the passage please.

But to be fair to God he did pay recompense for job woe.

That’s true he got double what he had to begin with. Even though, God doesn’t promise riches, in this life, to those who serve him.

In revelation its 144,000 people of israle will get in to god's kingdom
being kind I dont think he just ment any one from thr land we call israle did he ?

Any one want to workout the percentage 144,000 is of the billions that have lived and are going to be born.

No one would go to the casinos with odd's that bad

That’s a curious statement. People play the lottery when the odds are billions even trillions to one against winning anything significant. I’ll defer to another JF member for this one though, I'm out of time.