guns 101

[muy_thaiguy]

Iz, I'd rather have these ones.



And it's hard to see me, but I'm in the top right-hand corner.

[riggable]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARMoJ-9G68k

Debate on Gun Control^

[Neoteny]

You want to know what's fun to shoot?
I got to sink a couple Iraqi gun boats back in '91 with one of these.
25mm chain gun.... BOOYAH

I think I should be allowed to mount one of these bad boys on my back deck.
For ducks and such.......

What kind of permit do you think I need to get one of those?

[got tonkaed]

i think it would be just enough firepower to take care of whatever recent unchecked rises in duck population you were dealing with.

[MeDeFe]

MeDeFe, I am a hunter, I've gutted a few deer in my time, I use a Savage Arms bolt action 30-06, and I have a muzzleloader for muzzleloading season. I agree automatic weapons wouldn't be fun to hunt with, and more importantly it wouldn't be true to the sport which is one of the reasons I hunt.

Agreed, automatic and even semi-automatic weapons take away from the hunting experience, but they are really fun to shoot.

I'll second that. It's actually scary to me how fun they are. I love it...

You get used to them.




And to these, too.

[daddy1gringo]

You want to know what's fun to shoot?
I got to sink a couple Iraqi gun boats back in '91 with one of these.
25mm chain gun.... BOOYAH

I think I should be allowed to mount one of these bad boys on my back deck.
For ducks and such.......

a little bit difficult to use for self-defense in a bad neighborhood.

[Guiscard]

Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4

I've not seen a good bit of right-wing vitriol from you in a ages, Luns. I was almost starting to think you a reasonable person.

Keep up the good work.

[Iz Man]

Iz, I'd rather have these ones.



And it's hard to see me, but I'm in the top right-hand corner.

The Iowa class BB's are by far the most impressive warship to ever sail the seas. My first Captain, when he left our ship, took over command of the U.S.S. Wisconsin BB-64. I've got some great home vids from the battle of Khafgi, where we pulled along side her and bombarded the shore for some NGFS (Naval Gun Fire Support). To see those 16" guns lay down some whoopass is an awesome sight.

[Grooveman2007]

[unriggable]

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries

...

The rates for homicide and suicide by means other than firearms were calculated by subtracting the firearm-related homicide and firearm-related suicide rates from the overall homicide and suicide rates. Rates for the United States were compared with rates based on pooled data for the other 25 countries. Of the 161 million children aged less than 15 years during the 1 year for which data were provided, 57 million (35%) were in the United States and 104 million (65%) were in the other 25 countries.

Overall, the data provided by the 26 countries included a total of 2872 deaths among children aged less than 15 years for a period of 1 year. Homicides accounted for 1995 deaths, including 1177 (59%) in boys and 818 (41%) in girls. Of the homicides, 1464 (73%) occurred among U.S. children. The homicide rate for children in the United States was five times higher than that for children in the other 25 countries combined (2.57 per 100,000 compared with 0.51) (Table_1).

Suicide accounted for the deaths of 599 children, including 431 (72%) in boys and 168 (28%) in girls. Of the suicides, 321 (54%) occurred among U.S. children. The suicide rate for children in the United States was two times higher than that in the other 25 countries combined (0.55 compared with 0.27) (Table_1). No suicides were reported among children aged less than 5 years.

A firearm was reported to have been involved in the deaths of 1107 children; 957 (86%) of those occurred in the United States. Of all firearm-related deaths, 55% were reported as homicides; 20%, as suicides; 22%, as unintentional; and 3%, as intention undetermined. The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children aged less than 15 years was nearly 12 times higher than among children in the other 25 countries combined (1.66 compared with 0.14) (Table_1). The firearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly 16 times higher than that in all of the other countries combined (0.94 compared with 0.06); the firearm-related suicide rate was nearly 11 times higher (0.32 compared with 0.03); and the unintentional firearm-related death rate was nine times higher (0.36 compared with 0.04). For all countries, males accounted for most of the firearm-related homicides (67%), firearm-related suicides (77%), and unintentional firearm-related deaths (89%). The nonfirearm-related homicide rate in the United States was nearly four times the rate in all of the other countries (1.63 compared with 0.45), and nonfirearm-related suicide rates were similar in the United States and in all of the other countries combined (0.23 compared with 0.24).

The rate for firearm-related deaths among children in the United States (1.66) was 2.7-fold greater than that in the country with the next highest rate (Finland, 0.62) (Figure_1). Except for rates for firearm-related suicide in Northern Ireland and firearm-related fatalities of unknown intent in Austria, Belgium, and Israel, rates for all types of firearm-related deaths were higher in the United States than in the other countries. However, among all other countries, the impact of firearm-related deaths varied substantially. For example, five countries, including three of the four countries in Asia, reported no firearm-related deaths among children. In comparison, firearms were the primary cause of homicide in Finland, Israel, Australia, Italy, Germany, and England and Wales. Five countries (Denmark, Ireland, New Zealand, Scotland, and Taiwan) reported only unintentional firearm-related deaths.

Reported by: Div of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC.
Editorial Note

[brianm]

anyway back to the point of said thread....

since we certainly wont be repealing the second amendment any time soon...

train them all, do it in a public setting and make it young. Personally i like the idea of educating people about things, even things i dont necessarily agree with. Ideally if you did it in a public setting, you could get indivudals who have the requisite qualifications to teach the children, instead of situations where some kids get good training from responsible gun owners and some people dont.

about the handgun ban....

i think theres more mental gymnastics being done than youd like to admit. Frankly the amendment is not talking about individual self defense, though that is part of having a free state, it is rather talking about arming people to prevent things like invasion or governmental abuse. If it had meant individuals in self defense it would have said Persons, not the collective People. Also the notion of people is clearly related in connection to the notion of militia, which by in large is impractical today, though groups like the michigan militia still certainly exist.

anyway, i have rarely, in fact i havent come across anything that seems to approximate to evidence that if people had guns crimes would stop. That type of common sensical evidence has proven just as relavant as liberals like myself claiming if we didnt let anyone have guns we wouldnt have a problem. Continuing to claim it as if it is a truth, doesnt advance the issue anywhere for anyone.

That is one of the primary arguements for this bill, because of how rural West Virginia is there are firearms in practically every home (it has a much higher per-capita gun ownership rate than more urbanized states). However, I think that if the school is to get involved in gun safety, it should be by encouraging parents to get gun safety training themselves, and to attend gun safety classes WITH their kids (after all, the kid won't be any safer in the home if they are the only ones who when to any sort of gun safety class).

A gun is a tool, it's like a knife, or a chainsaw. If you know how to store, handle, and use it safely then it is actually a very safe tool to use (modern firearms have many inherent safety features, for example, a modern firearm, even with the safety off, will not fire even if you drop it or beat it with a hammer, due to a device called a firing pin block that prevents the hammer of the gun from striking the firing pin unless the trigger is being held all the way back). Modern cartrige ammunition will not misfire or spontaneously combust (even in relatively high heat) and modern gun making materials are not prone to split or explode during normal use (unlike firearms made even just a century ago, which COULD blow up in your face even if being used properly). The most unsafe part of any modern firearm is the user, and I'm a HUGE advocate for gun safety glasses as a requirement for the purchase and use of a firearm, but I'm not in favor of children being taught how to shoot a gun without the presence of their parents, period.

[brianm]

You love to type

Yea, I have been known to be long winded at times.

[luns101]

Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4

I've not seen a good bit of right-wing vitriol from you in a ages, Luns. I was almost starting to think you a reasonable person.

Keep up the good work.

Glad to oblige. It only took a little bit of time before someone took the bait though. Ever consider the possibility that perhaps it's my kind who are the reasonable ones and perhaps it's your side that has deviated from that? Just something to consider.

[got tonkaed]

to which i say...glad to oblige.

[Snorri1234]

Ever consider the possibility that perhaps it's my kind who are the reasonable ones and perhaps it's your side that has deviated from that?

Considered it and rejected it.

[Iz Man]

Kennesaw, Georgia

[luns101]

Ever consider the possibility that perhaps it's my kind who are the reasonable ones and perhaps it's your side that has deviated from that?

Considered it and rejected it.

Which pretty much blocks any attempt at reasonable discussion. So keeping that in mind, it's fun to throw things out there that I know liberals will take as bait. If your side will not even consider opposing viewpoints as valid then I throw something out there once in awhile which I know will produce a certain type of reaction.

[Dancing Mustard]

it's fun to throw things out there that I know liberals will take as bait. If your side will not even consider opposing viewpoints as valid then I throw something out there once in awhile which I know will produce a certain type of reaction.

This is not the Luns I know and love. You are normally the voice of reason that emanates from the Right-Wing camp. While I have considered and rejected your viewpoints many times, you usually present your arguments with thought and dignity. Please don't deviate from that usual modus operandi, this head-bashing does your (formidable) reputation no credit.

It's why they call me Terry Tibbs. Much Love.

[luns101]

it's fun to throw things out there that I know liberals will take as bait. If your side will not even consider opposing viewpoints as valid then I throw something out there once in awhile which I know will produce a certain type of reaction.

This is not the Luns I know and love. You are normally the voice of reason that emanates from the Right-Wing camp. While I have considered and rejected your viewpoints many times, you usually present your arguments with thought and dignity. Please don't deviate from that usual modus operandi, this head-bashing does your (formidable) reputation no credit.

It's why they call me Terry Tibbs. Much Love.

Gotcha! But let's not pretend that we have very different beliefs. There's really no way to reconcile that. It's cool, DM. I got the person who I wanted to respond to respond so I can use that post to illustrate some things to the kids I teach.

[Fircoal]

For fks sake, just ban guns and join the civilized world.

Seriously.

and as for the class idea, I'd say that's a big NO! It's bad enough we have them here, it's worse to teach kids about them, especially that young. And to make it required is even worse. Especially if the kids must take the class. I would hate to be in a class like that.

[daddy1gringo]

One person shows his statistics proving that more relaxed gun control lowers crime, the other posts his stats proving that it increases gun deaths. There’s probably some truth to both. What we’re missing is the underlying social and political issue.

Whatever segment of the population feels that they can’t trust the government to protect them, or that it’s the government from which they need to be protected, wants their own guns.

Liberals didn’t talk about gun control in the 60’s and early 70’s. They had posters of Huey Newton and Eldridge Cleaver on their walls armed to the teeth like Rambo. Abbie Hoffman gave directions for making and acquiring guns, and building bombs, in his books, “Revolution for the Hell of It” and “Steal This Book.” Racial minorities and people of left-leaning political views felt the police, FBI, CIA, and military threatened, rather than protected them.

Though I do not advocate violence, I trust God for my protection, have never owned a gun and probably never will, I had to chuckle when I heard liberals being shocked and indignant when right-wing pundits Gordon Liddy and Bob Grant spoke on the radio of shooting federal agents. I always wanted to find one and ask, “Would you tell me the meaning of the phrase ‘Off the pig!’ and tell me why you were chanting it like a mantra 15 years ago?” The right wing now sounds like the left wing then, because they now feel unsafe.

A troubled justice and penal system quickly returns violent criminals to society unchanged, except that they are more hardened and bitter, and more trained in crime.

The IRS can take your paycheck and bypass a great deal of due process. The DCF can take your children on an anonymous crank accusation.

Candidates for the Supreme Court are summarily dismissed by a sufficiently large liberal block in the Senate if their religious beliefs lead them to the pro-life stance held by approximately half the population. The “RICO” organized crime laws are brought to bear on peaceful demonstrators because of a few wackos who commit violence against abortion clinics, creating a situation where “an 80-year-old grandmother praying a rosary on the sidewalk is now a gangster.” As a teacher I could be fired for mentioning my beliefs in class, but if I were so inclined I could rattle off an entire class period about the spirits in the rocks and trees, because that is multi-cultural and environmental.

Affirmative action leaves scores of people feeling, rightly or wrongly, “The laws gave that (fill in ethnic slur) the job I should have gotten.” The white-supremacist hate groups are attentive to use that to recruit new haters.

Deal with these issues, and the demands of many to have assault rifles will subside.

[Gypsys Kiss]

So, you teach kids to use guns safely. Do you also allow them to take guns to school in order to defend themselves?

You cant defend yourself against drive-bys or from getting jumped from behind. You wouldnt have time even if you had your gun drawn.

I am English so I dont live in a gun culture and I dont want to. The worst thing I have to worry about when I go out is having money for beer and keys to get back in again. I cant imagine what its like to be threatened with a gun, but I cant beleive it makes you feel safer carrying one.

On the matter of hunting, why is it alright for a man(or woman) to go and use a gun on a wild animal but not ok for an animal to use its own teeth and claws on said individual.

[Snorri1234]

Ever consider the possibility that perhaps it's my kind who are the reasonable ones and perhaps it's your side that has deviated from that?

Considered it and rejected it.

Which pretty much blocks any attempt at reasonable discussion. So keeping that in mind, it's fun to throw things out there that I know liberals will take as bait. If your side will not even consider opposing viewpoints as valid then I throw something out there once in awhile which I know will produce a certain type of reaction.

Oh I will consider viewpoints as valid when they actually are. Your post was just a jab at anyone disagreeing with your viewpoints. That's not reasonable discussion, that's just trolling.

[SolidLuigi]

On the matter of hunting, why is it alright for a man(or woman) to go and use a gun on a wild animal but not ok for an animal to use its own teeth and claws on said individual.

It is OK. When you hear stories about a hunter getting attacked by a bear or other wild game, you don't see the police searching the forest to arrest that animal do you? No, it is a known risk of hunting that there is the chance you might get attacked, and if you do, tough shit for you.

[Grooveman2007]

On the matter of hunting, why is it alright for a man(or woman) to go and use a gun on a wild animal but not ok for an animal to use its own teeth and claws on said individual.

It is OK. When you hear stories about a hunter getting attacked by a bear or other wild game, you don't see the police searching the forest to arrest that animal do you? No, it is a known risk of hunting that there is the chance you might get attacked, and if you do, tough shit for you.

Which is one of the reasons I find hunting so fun, the inherent risk. That and the feeling of dominance when you drop a ten point buck.