Jesus Christ!

[heavycola]

The cartoons weren't even funny.

[oggiss]

yes exactly

Try to imagine if you can that you have something that you care deeply about, that basically takes your soul (A spouse or son/daughter perhaps). Now try to imagine if someone were to take that thing that you care about so much and do one of the most horrible things that could possibly be done to that thing.

To millions of Westerners, Free Speech is that something they care about, and demanding that it stop in any way, especially in a violent way, is the worst thing you could do to them, short of outright blowing up their buildings with planes.

Maybe now you can understand why Westerners were outraged over the reactions to these cartoons. And if you can't, then I have no respect for your intellect.

Well put.



In reply To #MeDeFe

Some 20 newspapers in Denmark again posted these satirical cartoons to show that they stand for the freedom of what shall be. And some German guy said that all newspapers in Europe should do that to show our support for that Danish guy that first made the cartoons and was , uhm don't know how to say it, but some guys threatened him. So it wasn't really for nothing, but I don't really know why the islamists care. If someone told me that god, jesus or whatever from Christianism was gay or something I wouldn't give a rats ass about it. And all these students in Sudan... they should know better than that.

[MeDeFe]

But they only reprinted them after the riots and protests had already started, for 2 months after they had first been printed noone cared about them, but then all of a sudden.

[oggiss]

The cartoons weren't even funny.

Maybe they weren't supposed to?

[Colossus]

I used to strenuously object to generalizations about Islam, but stuff like this makes it very difficult to not view Muslim culture as barbaric. (There have been lots of other good examples lately, too, before people crucify me...like the saudi woman who was raped by 14 men and sentenced to being whipped 200 times for it, or arguments by Egyptian biochemists that there is factual evidence which proves that evolution is wrong and that the factual evidence is 'the Koran says so'...don't get me started.)

I heard about that first one you mentioned. I don't care what you believe, barbarism is barbarism; she gets raped by 14 men and SHE gets the whip?! Islam, as practiced in the vast majority of the world, is not the 'religion of peace' touted by politicians and apologists in the western nations. Look no further than incidents like this in countries where Islam is nearly the state-supported religion and you'll see these sorts of things happen in atrocious numbers.

Look no further than Hindu-majority parts of India for atrocious things regarding all the shock-nouns like Rape or Torture. Is Hinduism an atrocious religion? Until change was imposed on them by the colonial government, a higher-caste tradition (almost requirement) in some areas was to marry and take a girls virginity before she reached puberty and became impure. Is that religious? Or do people such as yourself betray their natural ethnocentric religious bias and completely ignore the level of development in such cases?

Then, we can add in to the mix the level of religious tension ratcheted up by the polarised rhetoric of the War on Terror and the right wing elements of the media and are you at all surprised?

Hey Guis, I am certainly no cultural or historical expert. I just get so confused and angry when I see masses of people getting violent over something like a cartoon. If the whole of humanity were to respond with violence to offensive acts of other cultures, humanity wouldn't last long. I recognize that Islam is not inherently a religion of violence. I've posted as much several times before. But, I don't understand the violent group-think. It's not like violent group-think doesn't happen in America or other western countries, I know. But to get violent over a CARTOON seems a bit batty to me.

People like Hologram can put oppression and abuse of women or other such atrocities down to 'cultural differences,' but it seems to me that the ideals of personal rights are more a societal truth than an issue of moral judgment.

[heavycola]

I used to strenuously object to generalizations about Islam, but stuff like this makes it very difficult to not view Muslim culture as barbaric. (There have been lots of other good examples lately, too, before people crucify me...like the saudi woman who was raped by 14 men and sentenced to being whipped 200 times for it, or arguments by Egyptian biochemists that there is factual evidence which proves that evolution is wrong and that the factual evidence is 'the Koran says so'...don't get me started.)

I heard about that first one you mentioned. I don't care what you believe, barbarism is barbarism; she gets raped by 14 men and SHE gets the whip?! Islam, as practiced in the vast majority of the world, is not the 'religion of peace' touted by politicians and apologists in the western nations. Look no further than incidents like this in countries where Islam is nearly the state-supported religion and you'll see these sorts of things happen in atrocious numbers.

Look no further than Hindu-majority parts of India for atrocious things regarding all the shock-nouns like Rape or Torture. Is Hinduism an atrocious religion? Until change was imposed on them by the colonial government, a higher-caste tradition (almost requirement) in some areas was to marry and take a girls virginity before she reached puberty and became impure. Is that religious? Or do people such as yourself betray their natural ethnocentric religious bias and completely ignore the level of development in such cases?

Then, we can add in to the mix the level of religious tension ratcheted up by the polarised rhetoric of the War on Terror and the right wing elements of the media and are you at all surprised?

Hey Guis, I am certainly no cultural or historical expert. I just get so confused and angry when I see masses of people getting violent over something like a cartoon. If the whole of humanity were to respond with violence to offensive acts of other cultures, humanity wouldn't last long. I recognize that Islam is not inherently a religion of violence. I've posted as much several times before. But, I don't understand the violent group-think. It's not like violent group-think doesn't happen in America or other western countries, I know. But to get violent over a CARTOON seems a bit batty to me.

People like Hologram can put oppression and abuse of women or other such atrocities down to 'cultural differences,' but it seems to me that the ideals of personal rights are more a societal truth than an issue of moral judgment.

I agree 100%. Cultural relativism is useful if you're a social anthropologist, but then what? It is RIDICULOUS to get murderously worked up over a cartoon, let alone one in a foreign country that had been published years previously, no matter what your creed or culture.
it should be noted that holocaust cartoons were published in Iran (i think) as a response, and whilst offensive, the response was noticeably absent of burning effigies (where do they get effigies of danish newspaper editors anyway) or calls for death to anyone who thought differently. Was one reponse to an offensive cartoon better than the other? Objectively, YES!

If most Muslims are moderate - and I believe they are - it's down to them to stamp out this lunatic fringe that garners all the headlines and column inches (and racist attention) thanks to its insane antics.

[darvlay]

The cartoons weren't even funny.

Few political cartoons are.

[Guiscard]

I used to strenuously object to generalizations about Islam, but stuff like this makes it very difficult to not view Muslim culture as barbaric. (There have been lots of other good examples lately, too, before people crucify me...like the saudi woman who was raped by 14 men and sentenced to being whipped 200 times for it, or arguments by Egyptian biochemists that there is factual evidence which proves that evolution is wrong and that the factual evidence is 'the Koran says so'...don't get me started.)

I heard about that first one you mentioned. I don't care what you believe, barbarism is barbarism; she gets raped by 14 men and SHE gets the whip?! Islam, as practiced in the vast majority of the world, is not the 'religion of peace' touted by politicians and apologists in the western nations. Look no further than incidents like this in countries where Islam is nearly the state-supported religion and you'll see these sorts of things happen in atrocious numbers.

Look no further than Hindu-majority parts of India for atrocious things regarding all the shock-nouns like Rape or Torture. Is Hinduism an atrocious religion? Until change was imposed on them by the colonial government, a higher-caste tradition (almost requirement) in some areas was to marry and take a girls virginity before she reached puberty and became impure. Is that religious? Or do people such as yourself betray their natural ethnocentric religious bias and completely ignore the level of development in such cases?

Then, we can add in to the mix the level of religious tension ratcheted up by the polarised rhetoric of the War on Terror and the right wing elements of the media and are you at all surprised?

Hey Guis, I am certainly no cultural or historical expert. I just get so confused and angry when I see masses of people getting violent over something like a cartoon. If the whole of humanity were to respond with violence to offensive acts of other cultures, humanity wouldn't last long. I recognize that Islam is not inherently a religion of violence. I've posted as much several times before. But, I don't understand the violent group-think. It's not like violent group-think doesn't happen in America or other western countries, I know. But to get violent over a CARTOON seems a bit batty to me.

People like Hologram can put oppression and abuse of women or other such atrocities down to 'cultural differences,' but it seems to me that the ideals of personal rights are more a societal truth than an issue of moral judgment.

I agree 100%. Cultural relativism is useful if you're a social anthropologist, but then what? It is RIDICULOUS to get murderously worked up over a cartoon, let alone one in a foreign country that had been published years previously, no matter what your creed or culture.
it should be noted that holocaust cartoons were published in Iran (i think) as a response, and whilst offensive, the response was noticeably absent of burning effigies (where do they get effigies of danish newspaper editors anyway) or calls for death to anyone who thought differently. Was one reponse to an offensive cartoon better than the other? Objectively, YES!

If most Muslims are moderate - and I believe they are - it's down to them to stamp out this lunatic fringe that garners all the headlines and column inches (and racist attention) thanks to its insane antics.

I certainly agree with both these posts, to an extent, but the point about all this to me doesn't seem to be that it is a cartoon. A cartoon is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how the Islamic world perceives itself in relation to the west. I am in no way absolving those Muslims who participate in or support such action from blame, nor do I think it is 'the fault' of 'the west'. Rather I think we need to understand the issue from all of these perspectives combined. Yes it is a ridiculous reaction, but in a way I believe it to be an understandable one. And yes, it is in part the job of the majority of moderate Muslims to reign in such things. And yes they could try harder. I'm not excusing such things through 'cultural differences' but just seeking to explain them through levels of development rather than an in-bred barbarity.

[Colossus]

Agreed. I have a few Muslim friends, and they are certainly not barbaric. I don't think there's an inherent barbarism to Muslims, but it is very difficult to try to maintain an even-handed viewpoint when the supposedly-reasonable non-extremist majority allows such to-do over something as slight as a cartoon. That being said, there is a part of me which thinks that the reprinting of the cartoons was a completely stupid, insensitive, headline-seeking, irresponsible move given the controversy that the cartoons incited in the first place.

[Guiscard]

Agreed. I have a few Muslim friends, and they are certainly not barbaric. I don't think there's an inherent barbarism to Muslims, but it is very difficult to try to maintain an even-handed viewpoint when the supposedly-reasonable non-extremist majority allows such to-do over something as slight as a cartoon. That being said, there is a part of me which thinks that the reprinting of the cartoons was a completely stupid, insensitive, headline-seeking, irresponsible move given the controversy that the cartoons incited in the first place.

Indeed. Both the riots and repeated publishings are an overreaction.

[greenoaks]

the repeated publishing of the cartoons was to show the rioters we are not afraid of them. it was not an overreaction, it was defiance.

[got tonkaed]

the repeated publishing of the cartoons was to show the rioters we are not afraid of them. it was not an overreaction, it was defiance.

there is a very thin line between definance and stupidity then.

[brooksieb]

Well going back to Sudan, we give them millions of pounds and they take the pee out of us and take liberty's I've got a saying.......

Don't bite the hand you eat off of!

[got tonkaed]

Well going back to Sudan, we give them millions of pounds and they take the pee out of us and take liberty's I've got a saying.......

Don't bite the hand you eat off of!

well everyone is doing a bang up job helping out in darfur so i guess we are doing a pretty excellent job in sudan in general.

[oggiss]

Well going back to Sudan, we give them millions of pounds and they take the pee out of us and take liberty's I've got a saying.......

Don't bite the hand you eat off of!

Exactly.

And why boycott our products? Stupid!

[brooksieb]

Well going back to Sudan, we give them millions of pounds and they take the pee out of us and take liberty's I've got a saying.......

Don't bite the hand you eat off of!

well everyone is doing a bang up job helping out in darfur so i guess we are doing a pretty excellent job in sudan in general.

Yeah, i guess we are but i think we should help out somewhere else in Africa, Asia or Latin america, maybe they'll appreciate us more

[got tonkaed]

Well going back to Sudan, we give them millions of pounds and they take the pee out of us and take liberty's I've got a saying.......

Don't bite the hand you eat off of!

well everyone is doing a bang up job helping out in darfur so i guess we are doing a pretty excellent job in sudan in general.

Yeah, i guess we are but i think we should help out somewhere else in Africa, Asia or Latin america, maybe they'll appreciate us more

your absolutly right...having people like us more is way more important than doing something about a genocide.

[Napoleon Ier]

I used to strenuously object to generalizations about Islam, but stuff like this makes it very difficult to not view Muslim culture as barbaric. (There have been lots of other good examples lately, too, before people crucify me...like the saudi woman who was raped by 14 men and sentenced to being whipped 200 times for it, or arguments by Egyptian biochemists that there is factual evidence which proves that evolution is wrong and that the factual evidence is 'the Koran says so'...don't get me started.)

I heard about that first one you mentioned. I don't care what you believe, barbarism is barbarism; she gets raped by 14 men and SHE gets the whip?! Islam, as practiced in the vast majority of the world, is not the 'religion of peace' touted by politicians and apologists in the western nations. Look no further than incidents like this in countries where Islam is nearly the state-supported religion and you'll see these sorts of things happen in atrocious numbers.

Look no further than Hindu-majority parts of India for atrocious things regarding all the shock-nouns like Rape or Torture. Is Hinduism an atrocious religion? Until change was imposed on them by the colonial government, a higher-caste tradition (almost requirement) in some areas was to marry and take a girls virginity before she reached puberty and became impure. Is that religious? Or do people such as yourself betray their natural ethnocentric religious bias and completely ignore the level of development in such cases?

Then, we can add in to the mix the level of religious tension ratcheted up by the polarised rhetoric of the War on Terror and the right wing elements of the media and are you at all surprised?

Hey Guis, I am certainly no cultural or historical expert. I just get so confused and angry when I see masses of people getting violent over something like a cartoon. If the whole of humanity were to respond with violence to offensive acts of other cultures, humanity wouldn't last long. I recognize that Islam is not inherently a religion of violence. I've posted as much several times before. But, I don't understand the violent group-think. It's not like violent group-think doesn't happen in America or other western countries, I know. But to get violent over a CARTOON seems a bit batty to me.

People like Hologram can put oppression and abuse of women or other such atrocities down to 'cultural differences,' but it seems to me that the ideals of personal rights are more a societal truth than an issue of moral judgment.

I agree 100%. Cultural relativism is useful if you're a social anthropologist, but then what? It is RIDICULOUS to get murderously worked up over a cartoon, let alone one in a foreign country that had been published years previously, no matter what your creed or culture.
it should be noted that holocaust cartoons were published in Iran (i think) as a response, and whilst offensive, the response was noticeably absent of burning effigies (where do they get effigies of danish newspaper editors anyway) or calls for death to anyone who thought differently. Was one reponse to an offensive cartoon better than the other? Objectively, YES!

If most Muslims are moderate - and I believe they are - it's down to them to stamp out this lunatic fringe that garners all the headlines and column inches (and racist attention) thanks to its insane antics.

I certainly agree with both these posts, to an extent, but the point about all this to me doesn't seem to be that it is a cartoon. A cartoon is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how the Islamic world perceives itself in relation to the west. I am in no way absolving those Muslims who participate in or support such action from blame, nor do I think it is 'the fault' of 'the west'. Rather I think we need to understand the issue from all of these perspectives combined. Yes it is a ridiculous reaction, but in a way I believe it to be an understandable one. And yes, it is in part the job of the majority of moderate Muslims to reign in such things. And yes they could try harder. I'm not excusing such things through 'cultural differences' but just seeking to explain them through levels of development rather than an in-bred barbarity.

If Catholics began doing even a fraction of this, Guiscard, you'd be frothing foam at the mouth like old faithful and calling for military action against the Vatican and expulsion of all those evil nasty fascist papists.

[brooksieb]

Yes, if they're going to fight and waste our food what's the point? we might as well help out a country like Bangladesh in Asia who's not at war and is suffering with the worst floods in the world and disease caused by the floods.

[got tonkaed]

Yes, if they're going to fight and waste our food what's the point? we might as well help out a country like Bangladesh in Asia who's not at war and is suffering with the worst floods in the world and disease caused by the floods.

your not even worth replying to at this point.

[oggiss]

Yes, if they're going to fight and waste our food what's the point? we might as well help out a country like Bangladesh in Asia who's not at war and is suffering with the worst floods in the world and disease caused by the floods.

your not even worth replying to at this point.

I agree with brooksieb in this matter. Although we can't get a grip of them and say they are owe us something because that would be wrong, but they could at least appreciate and respect us a bit.

[brooksieb]

Yes, if they're going to fight and waste our food what's the point? we might as well help out a country like Bangladesh in Asia who's not at war and is suffering with the worst floods in the world and disease caused by the floods.

your not even worth replying to at this point.

Why?

[comic boy]

Yes, if they're going to fight and waste our food what's the point? we might as well help out a country like Bangladesh in Asia who's not at war and is suffering with the worst floods in the world and disease caused by the floods.

your not even worth replying to at this point.

Why?

Because you talk absolute crap !

[brooksieb]

well that is my opinion, why help a country who if you give them food will actually just be going to the soldiers or something

[Snorri1234]

well that is my opinion, why help a country who if you give them food will actually just be going to the soldiers or something

?