A question for the religious

[Ditocoaf]

All right then:

No, non-believers can't go to heaven.
This is because
(i)God wants you to praise him and you can't do that if you think he isn't real. Going to Heaven is a reward for good people who belive in him. Allegedly.
(ii) There is no God.
(iii) There is no Heaven.

For a non-believer to ask "can I get inot heaven anyhow?" is like saying "I don't believe in a Flat Earth, but you wouldn't push me off the edge, would ya?"

Well, it's nice to know who thinks I'm going to hell. It helps me interpret what they're saying to me, if I know that what I do is irrelevant to them.

[Neoteny]

No
You're best bet is believing in god and acting like a dick to everyone.

You're right, I'm a real dick to anyone and everyone I come across, and people who don't believe are NEVER dicks to other people.

Oh wait...

aaaand that was the point in which a poster mistook friendly banter as a personal attack. Things get sour from here on in.

If it were merely "friendly banter" then it wouldn't bug me so much. However, in each and every thread on this topic, the discussion quickly turns into a Christian bash fest.

Seriously MTG, nobody here was saying that all religious people are dicks, or that all atheists aren't dicks. They were just pointing out the odd friction between saying:
"If you act like a perfect human being, but don't get round to believing in a god (or the right god) then you go to hell"
"If you act like a twat all your life and never do anything positive, but then accept God and apologise on your deathbed, you go to heaven"

Come on man, lighten up about it... nobody is under attack here.

Nobody is under attack...Yet. Would be a better way to put it, as I said above, it degrades into that each and every time in these threads. If it was merely joking around, then it would not happen so often, and yet it does. And mocking someone's faith and belief (which is happening) is not "friendly banter." Why do you think I really don't participate in these types of threads much anymore? It isn't because of carpal tunnel, I'll tell you that.

Thin-skinned much? These threads do usually seem to degrade into both sides mocking each other's opinions. But there's usually only one side bitching and moaning about it and refusing to continue. When the debate stops, all that's left to enjoy is pissing around with each other. Some people spam random crap, others enjoy making fun of each other. Please, please don't add to the bitching...

[muy_thaiguy]

No
You're best bet is believing in god and acting like a dick to everyone.

You're right, I'm a real dick to anyone and everyone I come across, and people who don't believe are NEVER dicks to other people.

Oh wait...

aaaand that was the point in which a poster mistook friendly banter as a personal attack. Things get sour from here on in.

If it were merely "friendly banter" then it wouldn't bug me so much. However, in each and every thread on this topic, the discussion quickly turns into a Christian bash fest.

Seriously MTG, nobody here was saying that all religious people are dicks, or that all atheists aren't dicks. They were just pointing out the odd friction between saying:
"If you act like a perfect human being, but don't get round to believing in a god (or the right god) then you go to hell"
"If you act like a twat all your life and never do anything positive, but then accept God and apologise on your deathbed, you go to heaven"

Come on man, lighten up about it... nobody is under attack here.

Nobody is under attack...Yet. Would be a better way to put it, as I said above, it degrades into that each and every time in these threads. If it was merely joking around, then it would not happen so often, and yet it does. And mocking someone's faith and belief (which is happening) is not "friendly banter." Why do you think I really don't participate in these types of threads much anymore? It isn't because of carpal tunnel, I'll tell you that.

Thin-skinned much? These threads do usually seem to degrade into both sides mocking each other's opinions. But there's usually only one side bitching and moaning about it and refusing to continue. When the debate stops, all that's left to enjoy is pissing around with each other. Some people spam random crap, others enjoy making fun of each other. Please, please don't add to the bitching...

If anything, it is a one-sided ordeal. Once the the mockers show up, the rest just leave because we don't want to have to deal with "You iz teh stupids for believing in a God!!!1!" No bitching, no moaning, we just stop posting in there altogether, and yet we continuously are mocked. And here you are trying to sugar coat it to make it seem like an even trade off, which it is not. When I debate, I'm not going in ready to call someone bigoted or mock their views, that is what flame wars was made for.

And no, I'm not "moaning and bitching and trying to become a bitcher." I'm merely stating the simple truth.

[brooksieb]

you can definately go to heaven if you are good but don't believe in god.

[silvanricky]

Thank God for TV because you guys wouldn't know anything without it.

I need to sig this

[Neoteny]

If anything, it is a one-sided ordeal. Once the the mockers show up, the rest just leave because we don't want to have to deal with "You iz teh stupids for believing in a God!!!1!" No bitching, no moaning, we just stop posting in there altogether, and yet we continuously are mocked. And here you are trying to sugar coat it to make it seem like an even trade off, which it is not. When I debate, I'm not going in ready to call someone bigoted or mock their views, that is what flame wars was made for.

And no, I'm not "moaning and bitching and trying to become a bitcher." I'm merely stating the simple truth.

Please, we catch enough shit from the likes of Greg, Ricky, and a couple others (I still miss Nappy). And we dish it back. If you can't handle a little verbal defecation, an internet forum probably isn't for you. Some of us have a bit more patience than others. I hold my opinions as strongly as you do, and they can take a lot of abuse (not to mention intelligent prodding) so I don't have anything to worry about. If I change my opinion, it's not going to be from the likes of "teh sh1t grammarz," so what's the harm in making fun of them. If that bothers you, then perhaps you should reconsider your association with them.

As far as bigotry goes, a horse is a horse, no matter what you call it. I suppose if you want to call it a flame, go ahead, but if you are defending the denial of a group of people civil justice, you are likely a bigot. I'm sorry you can't respond to most atheists in kind.

Thank God for TV because you guys wouldn't know anything without it.

I need to sig this

Speak of the devil...

[PLAYER57832]

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

You have to specify the religion.

In Christianity, the orthodox view is that you are saved through belief in Christ. Good people who do not believe are not saved, "bad" ones are. But those who follow God's edicts have better lives than if they did not (though NOT necessarily better than any particular sinner).

Most say that somewhere, somehow everyone will be given the chance to hear "the truth" and either commit or not.

Some even believe that other religions might possibly be somehow "Christian", by another name, or that God speaks to different cultures in different ways, but those last 2 beliefs are generally considered heretical by most Christian churches. (Not to be confused with true Christian churches that go "underground' and pretend to be something else publicly for safety reasons)

[silvanricky]

Speak of the devil...

Hey, NeoBigot!

[Neoteny]

Speak of the devil...

Hey, NeoBigot!

Look how cute he is... he's making up words now!

[muy_thaiguy]

Please, we catch enough shit from the likes of Greg, Ricky, and a couple others (I still miss Nappy). And we dish it back. If you can't handle a little verbal defecation, an internet forum probably isn't for you. Some of us have a bit more patience than others. I hold my opinions as strongly as you do, and they can take a lot of abuse (not to mention intelligent prodding) so I don't have anything to worry about. If I change my opinion, it's not going to be from the likes of "teh sh1t grammarz," so what's the harm in making fun of them. If that bothers you, then perhaps you should reconsider your association with them.

Then do that to the individuals if you have no self-control, but don't take it out on the entire group. However, if it were only a few individuals mocking Christianity, I'd have more patience, sadly though, it is a fairly good majority, no matter how you look at it.

[OnlyAmbrose]

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

It's not up to me. How could I speculate?

[Beastly]

Blasphemy of the spirit is the only sin unforgivable.

[Neoteny]

Please, we catch enough shit from the likes of Greg, Ricky, and a couple others (I still miss Nappy). And we dish it back. If you can't handle a little verbal defecation, an internet forum probably isn't for you. Some of us have a bit more patience than others. I hold my opinions as strongly as you do, and they can take a lot of abuse (not to mention intelligent prodding) so I don't have anything to worry about. If I change my opinion, it's not going to be from the likes of "teh sh1t grammarz," so what's the harm in making fun of them. If that bothers you, then perhaps you should reconsider your association with them.

Then do that to the individuals if you have no self-control, but don't take it out on the entire group. However, if it were only a few individuals mocking Christianity, I'd have more patience, sadly though, it is a fairly good majority, no matter how you look at it.

Hm. Well, sorry you feel that way. I will be sure to tiptoe around you.

[Beastly]

Perhaps if you did, you way stay on the subject, instead of trolling.

[Juan_Bottom]

Perhaps if you did, you way stay on the subject, instead of trolling.

Where's your answer?
Oh what, are you saying that so long as an Atheist doesn't say something like "screw the holy ghost," the they're in?

I'm an Atheist, Meh.

[Neoteny]

Perhaps if you did, you way stay on the subject, instead of trolling.

Did you read the thread, dear? I actually joined an in-progress conversation. It's usually fairly obvious when I'm trolling. Try to keep up.

[Ditocoaf]

What, an athest is being rude to say that a christain is being stupid, but if a christian tells an atheist "you're choosing to send yourself to hell," that's all fine and dandy? Maybe the very existence of people who don't follow Christianity mocks the religion, but the Christians on this site mock us plenty, and it goes beyond just a few individuals on your side as well. thai, don't act like you've only ever used rational, laid-back reasoning in these discussions. You're as guilty as anyone is of insults and accusations.

[muy_thaiguy]

What, an athest is being rude to say that a christain is being stupid, but if a christian tells an atheist "you're choosing to send yourself to hell," that's all fine and dandy? Maybe the very existence of people who don't follow Christianity mocks the religion, but the Christians on this site mock us plenty, and it goes beyond just a few individuals on your side as well. thai, don't act like you've only ever used rational, laid-back reasoning in these discussions. You're as guilty as anyone is of insults and accusations.

Yes, when I first started posting over a year ago, I was just another n00b wasn't I? But other then Flame Wars, I refrain from such. Though when someone is acting like a bratty little snob, I'll tell them. I'm not going to sugar coat it and try and dance around it, I'll tell them straight up.

But like I said, you choose to mock the whole instead of the individual. Therein lies the difference. Or do you mean a few spats with Norse while he's been here under multis? Quite frankly, for as long as I have been on this site, he's always been a little dick. I saw it the first time I chatted with him. It just took other people longer to realize it.

And like I said in this thread, it is not for me to judge where people go, that is up to God.
And I would like a few examples other then Nappy's obvious comments of Atheists being "victimized" on this site. Though I do believe Nappy merely went along with what you guys (the mockers) were doing, and had been doing for who knows how long in who knows how many threads before I even joined the site. So don't even try and pin it all on me or make a lame excuse such as your little example in the beginning.

[joecoolfrog]

Its awfully sad to see a ( nearly ) grown man cry so everybody please desist from posting any comments that might offend MTG or any of his fragile friends, it is possible to construct a post without appearing condescending and paranoid so do please try harder you nasty atheist types

[joecoolfrog]

Getting back to the point, no it is not possible to enter heaven unless you are a fully fledged,paid up Christian. Whether the policy is logical or fair is irrelevent, its design was purely to encourage people to become/stay Christian and therefore has to be inflexible.
Of course the sting in the tail is that this is only the Christian perspective, pick the wrong faith and you could be in deep doo daas for being too dogmatic and ignoring the wider picture.
My advice is to simply be a nice person and a credit to society, if there is a God then im sure he will prize this above all else, certainly above one who has the pretence of piety but is in effect a nasty piece of work.

[InkL0sed]

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

You have to specify the religion.

In Christianity, the orthodox view is that you are saved through belief in Christ. Good people who do not believe are not saved, "bad" ones are. But those who follow God's edicts have better lives than if they did not (though NOT necessarily better than any particular sinner).

Most say that somewhere, somehow everyone will be given the chance to hear "the truth" and either commit or not.

Some even believe that other religions might possibly be somehow "Christian", by another name, or that God speaks to different cultures in different ways, but those last 2 beliefs are generally considered heretical by most Christian churches. (Not to be confused with true Christian churches that go "underground' and pretend to be something else publicly for safety reasons)

But PLAYER - what do you you think?

If I was an incredibly good person (ie. I loved absolutely everybody, always helped them out, good to my neighbors, gave to charity, etc etc), but I simply didn't believe in God - would you consider me damned to Hell? Or would I be accepted to the Pearly Gates anyway?

It's not up to me. How could I speculate?

Erm. What?

[heavycola]

If you treated everyone great but refused to give your parents any gratitude for raising you from birth, would they invite you to go on a trip to Hawaii?

Response #2: By raising us from birth do you mean creating us and immediately throwing us into a shitty world of death and disease because of a single mistake our ancestors' ancestors made? Because, yeah, I wouldn't be very grateful.

Also, your parents had their other kid brutally put to death and they expect you to be grateful for that, too.

[Neoteny]

What, an athest is being rude to say that a christain is being stupid, but if a christian tells an atheist "you're choosing to send yourself to hell," that's all fine and dandy? Maybe the very existence of people who don't follow Christianity mocks the religion, but the Christians on this site mock us plenty, and it goes beyond just a few individuals on your side as well. thai, don't act like you've only ever used rational, laid-back reasoning in these discussions. You're as guilty as anyone is of insults and accusations.

Yes, when I first started posting over a year ago, I was just another n00b wasn't I? But other then Flame Wars, I refrain from such. Though when someone is acting like a bratty little snob, I'll tell them. I'm not going to sugar coat it and try and dance around it, I'll tell them straight up.

But like I said, you choose to mock the whole instead of the individual. Therein lies the difference. Or do you mean a few spats with Norse while he's been here under multis? Quite frankly, for as long as I have been on this site, he's always been a little dick. I saw it the first time I chatted with him. It just took other people longer to realize it.

And like I said in this thread, it is not for me to judge where people go, that is up to God.
And I would like a few examples other then Nappy's obvious comments of Atheists being "victimized" on this site. Though I do believe Nappy merely went along with what you guys (the mockers) were doing, and had been doing for who knows how long in who knows how many threads before I even joined the site. So don't even try and pin it all on me or make a lame excuse such as your little example in the beginning.

Nobody's being victimized. We're not preying on small children, we're making fun of each other. You've requested to be left out of it, and I will be sure to do so.

The bolded part above is the key though. As an atheist, we consider all Christians to be "bratty little snobs" because they are Christians. It is inherent in your belief system (as well as many others). I don't know where you come off trying to play the victim when the tables are so easily turned. Either way, I too have a sense of integrity through which I will tell you what I believe without sugar-coating my opinions. However, when I do this, I get responses like "you shouldn't say things about people's beliefs. They keep these things very close to their heart and you shouldn't ridicule them." Double standard much? Convince me otherwise, but please don't complain about it.

Most of us realize Norse is a knob. I'm not sure what your point is there. He had his moments, but mostly he was a tool. I can't fault him for expressing his opinions though. It's just hard to tell what he was actually serious about. Many of his statements were clearly inflammatory/discriminatory.

Also, Nappy rarely "merely went along with" anything. He was usually right in the thick of things, and that gets at least that much respect out of me.

[InkL0sed]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point. I blame Gregrios.

[Snorri1234]

Oh, how quickly this degenerated into name-calling... I thought I'd be able to get at least 3 pages before we got to this point.

What?!Why did you think that?