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Breathing Tax

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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:33 pm

GabonX wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:There are plenty of places in the world where people live under socialist ideologies. America was made great by pursuing the exact opposite course of action, that is to say that emphasis is centered on personal responsibility and potential.


You are ignorant. It was not private companies, but public research that has brought about most of the great medical advances. Only we turn them over to private companies to make a profit.

You are arrogant. It seems like all you care about is manipulating things at the expense of others, and to hell with them if they don't like what you want.

These new claims you're making mean nothing without support, regardless of what you may have heard on NPR.

I'm sure that the government has invested in research, but to claim that private industries have not invested as well is ludicrous.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:The European (socialist) way of life is not currently under attack (unless you count Islam) while the fundamental liberties which have made America great are.

Socialism in health care does not mean we are heading down the road to communism or universal socialism. Give it a rest already! Health care does not operate well under a free market. Some things do, but not healthcare.

I didn't say "communism." Health care is not a right. For all that you scientists and leftists rave about the unquestionable truths of evolution, I find it astounding that they never question what will happen to human beings if there is no process of selection.

We are already among the most over medicated people on earth, and we are getting weaker because of it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:I would like to see our way of life preserved.

But right now, unless you happen to be very wealthy, a serious illness will wipe that away. You are young, can pretend you will be healthy forever. Most of us are not so deluded.

I guess it's a good thing Obama is my President then. He will fix my illness :roll:


I was going to respond, but the truth is you have already done far more to prove your lunacy and illogic than I ever could. Congratulations!
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:35 pm

Good argument

I guess this means you're entitled to MY money when YOUR kids get sick.

To hell with it if I can't afford my own health care as a result eh?
Last edited by GabonX on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:36 pm

GabonX wrote:Good argument

I guess this means you're entitled to MY money when YOUR kids get sick.


No, but you are entitled to have my husband come pull your rear out of a burning building .. for free! Should you ever have the need.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:37 pm

Tell your husband I said thanks ;)
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:46 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Good argument

I guess this means you're entitled to MY money when YOUR kids get sick.


No, but you are entitled to have my husband come pull your rear out of a burning building .. for free! Should you ever have the need.


Not for free player... none of this is for free. Not healthcare, not your husband pulling Gabon out of a building. NOT... FOR... FREE!!!

It amazes me that people still cling to the belief that government programs are free of charge. Especially people that seem to be knowledgeable about other subjects.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:47 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Good argument

I guess this means you're entitled to MY money when YOUR kids get sick.


No, but you are entitled to have my husband come pull your rear out of a burning building .. for free! Should you ever have the need.


Not for free player... none of this is for free. Not healthcare, not your husband pulling Gabon out of a building. NOT... FOR... FREE!!!

It amazes me that people still cling to the belief that government programs are free of charge. Especially people that seem to be knowledgeable about other subjects.

You're ignorant
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:51 pm

InkL0sed wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.


If you have health insurance paid for by the government, guess who pays?


Right, but you don't have to go to the emergency room. We're talking about cost here. It'd be cheaper if everyone had government-run health-insurance.

And yes, the care would be just as good.


THEN LET'S DO IT!!!

Seriously though, this is something I don't understand (seriously) and I need clarification/guidance. Is preventative medicine, on the whole, cheaper than emergency room stays? My gut says yes.

The other thing that concerns me is that I don't know that a lot of people who currently have health insurance, who do not have some expensive-to-treat disease or malady, are taking preventative care of themselves.

In any event, here's the greekdog plan - provide healthcare for people who cannot afford it; have the government subsidize procedures that the health insurance industry won't provide (to solve player's problem with the current system, highly regulate health insurance companies so that they provide what they say they will provide, create criminal penalties for insurance fraud by insurance companies, provide a cap at least on attorneys fees from medical malpractice suits. Problem solved? Yes.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:42 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
GabonX wrote:Good argument

I guess this means you're entitled to MY money when YOUR kids get sick.


No, but you are entitled to have my husband come pull your rear out of a burning building .. for free! Should you ever have the need.


Not for free player... none of this is for free. Not healthcare, not your husband pulling Gabon out of a building. NOT... FOR... FREE!!!

It amazes me that people still cling to the belief that government programs are free of charge. Especially people that seem to be knowledgeable about other subjects.


True, but if you read the diatribe GabonX was trying to pass off as "logic" ...

I have never ever said healthcare would be free. Kids, maybe, but they pay for it when they are grown.. and I think add to our society more than they take, regardless. (but that is my personnal opinion, not a "proven fact").

As for my husband... he volunteers. He gets a small stipend that pays about 1/3 of the gas he uses to respond (in his own vehicle) to calls, which is enough to boost us above the income limit for reduced lunches, free medical care for my kids, etc. But absolutely, all of his equipment, even that stipend all come, ultimately, from tax dollars.

My basic point is that I believe we contribute far more to our community, society than GabonX probably ever will, yet it was him complaining that he might have to pay healthcare for my kids.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby InkL0sed on Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:46 pm

GabonX wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:
GabonX wrote:And I'm glad you're such a good son that you agree with your mother about everything.

Abortion, Iraq, Bush, Obama, gun control, faith..Do you guys agree on these too?


No, we're right about those things, too.

I'm sorry, but I agree about all those things with a lot of people. Let's not make this personal.

A lot of people, particularly younger people, agree with their parents on just about every social issue. I question whether these people have really thought about the issues or have been indoctrinated, much like people on the left claim children are indoctrinated to fundamental religion. Indoctrination of fundamental leftism exists as well.

My parents don't agree so I get to make up my own mind.


I agree with my parents, so I must have never thought about my positions, but you on the other hand, don't agree with your parents, so you must have a superior position.

How you were raised affects your worldview. You're not some neutral, superior thinker just because you disagree with one of your parents. So get off your high horse; you're just as biased as the rest of us.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:13 pm

GabonX wrote:
A lot of people, particularly younger people, agree with their parents on just about every social issue.

Most people challenge their parent's thinking when teens. Then they grow up and more often than not find themselves agreeing with a lot of what their parents taught.

I guess you just haven't really grown up yet GabonX.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:06 am

Thanks mom. I guess you've got me all figured out ;)

Keeping in mind that just acting snide doesn't make you right, I would be curious what part of my 'diatribe' you take issue with. I don't like that you've taken this to a personal level, but if thats where we are that's fine.. I'll give my opinion and I think I actually have enough information to form one.

I find your sense of entitlement profoundly disturbing and your over all attitude to be self righteous and pompous. I see all of these things you've written and it seems like you don't have any real concern for other people's rights or traditions if they inconvenience you, ie people can't go hunting on state game lands because you want to walk around with your kids in hunting woods. You think that guns are all right, but only the type that your husband would use and for the same things that he would use them for. God forbid somebody would have something more powerful than him and would be prepared to use it (responsibly) at a time when he wouldn't be..

You seem to think that you are entitled to some kind of privilege to stick your nose up at other people because of either your charity, or your husbands charity (which are two different things for the record). In addition it seems like you feel entitled to the fruits of other people's labor partly because of this, and partly because anyone who has more money than you just got it because they're lucky. Nobody is smarter than you, nobody works harder than you, it's all luck and circumstance..
..This despite the fact that you spend tens of hours writing thousand word responses to people on this forum. You have every right to complain and no need to change the way you spend your time. No, you are entitled to what they have worked for because of your husband's "charity."

If someone disagrees with you it's because they're ignorant, or 'lack intellectual capacity,' or because they are 'extremists' and their views shouldn't be taken seriously. Evolution is sacred, and so is the bible..and you have the perfect understanding of how the two things work together. After all you're a scientist which means that you are rational and intelligent..right?

Basically people are free to live their lives and think their thoughts only in ways which are approved of by 'society.' The thing is, your view of societal standards is a thinly veiled cover which exists in your own mind to rationalize selfishness for yourself and for your family.

I see through it.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:45 am

thegreekdog wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:Because if you don't have health insurance, and you end up going to the emergency room, guess who pays.


If you have health insurance paid for by the government, guess who pays?


Right, but you don't have to go to the emergency room. We're talking about cost here. It'd be cheaper if everyone had government-run health-insurance.

And yes, the care would be just as good.


THEN LET'S DO IT!!!

Seriously though, this is something I don't understand (seriously) and I need clarification/guidance. Is preventative medicine, on the whole, cheaper than emergency room stays? My gut says yes.

The other thing that concerns me is that I don't know that a lot of people who currently have health insurance, who do not have some expensive-to-treat disease or malady, are taking preventative care of themselves.

In any event, here's the greekdog plan - provide healthcare for people who cannot afford it; have the government subsidize procedures that the health insurance industry won't provide (to solve player's problem with the current system, highly regulate health insurance companies so that they provide what they say they will provide, create criminal penalties for insurance fraud by insurance companies, provide a cap at least on attorneys fees from medical malpractice suits. Problem solved? Yes.


I agree, except with the last sentence. I think we need to move away from the whole "lawsuits solve malpractice" idea. I would institute criminal penalties for the few who do intentional harm or who are so negligent you might as well say they caused intentional harm. I would create a board to oversee doctors. When errors occur, the doctor/hospital and not the patient should pay for care. A "victim's fund" should pay living expenses. The bulk of the problem should be to institute better training or procedures to prevent errors. (skipped a lot of details, but you get the giist).

So, now if only we could convince our legislators of this... ;)
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby Fircoal on Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:59 pm

GabonX wrote:And I'm glad you're such a good son that you agree with your mother about everything.

Abortion, Iraq, Bush, Obama, gun control, faith..Do you guys agree on these too?


I don't agree with my parents on everything, somethings yes, but not all. I guess it'd be notable to point out I'm more left than both of my parents are.

And yes people can believe the same as their parents because that's how they were taught, but those people usually are the ones that don't care about it that much and just enter in their 2 cents when the conversation is brought up with friends, or when they vote. Those people who never thought about it and just obeyed their parents or other influences, would probably not be interested in this, and wouldn't post here. I believe most of the people who post here have thought about it at least a bit, because to post here you'd have to have interest in the topic, and if you're interested in it, why wouldn't you think about it?
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:16 pm

GabonX wrote:Thanks mom. I guess you've got me all figured out ;)

Keeping in mind that just acting snide doesn't make you right, I would be curious what part of my 'diatribe' you take issue with. I don't like that you've taken this to a personal level, but if thats where we are that's fine.. I'll give my opinion and I think I actually have enough information to form one.

I find your sense of entitlement profoundly disturbing and your over all attitude to be self righteous and pompous. I see all of these things you've written and it seems like you don't have any real concern for other people's rights or traditions if they inconvenience you, ie people can't go hunting on state game lands because you want to walk around with your kids in hunting woods. You think that guns are all right, but only the type that your husband would use and for the same things that he would use them for. God forbid somebody would have something more powerful than him and would be prepared to use it (responsibly) at a time when he wouldn't be..

You seem to think that you are entitled to some kind of privilege to stick your nose up at other people because of either your charity, or your husbands charity (which are two different things for the record). In addition it seems like you feel entitled to the fruits of other people's labor partly because of this, and partly because anyone who has more money than you just got it because they're lucky. Nobody is smarter than you, nobody works harder than you, it's all luck and circumstance..
..This despite the fact that you spend tens of hours writing thousand word responses to people on this forum. You have every right to complain and no need to change the way you spend your time. No, you are entitled to what they have worked for because of your husband's "charity."

If someone disagrees with you it's because they're ignorant, or 'lack intellectual capacity,' or because they are 'extremists' and their views shouldn't be taken seriously. Evolution is sacred, and so is the bible..and you have the perfect understanding of how the two things work together. After all you're a scientist which means that you are rational and intelligent..right?

Basically people are free to live their lives and think their thoughts only in ways which are approved of by 'society.' The thing is, your view of societal standards is a thinly veiled cover which exists in your own mind to rationalize selfishness for yourself and for your family.

I see through it.


I make an admittedly snide, but like response to a remark you make and this is the response?

Basically, you are entitled to your opinion, but when you say things like give me fact, not NPR garbage, whilst you post all sorts of ounverified or outright disproven web posts as if they were somehow valid, it just shows you DO lack intellectual capacity.

As for my husband. You are half right. No, I am not the one currently volunteering, but he could not do what he does if I were not taking care of the kids, house and just about everything else. So, yes, I do get some credit.

Not sure where you get this idea that I think the world owes me a living. We pay our bills. I cannot work outside the home right now because of my husband's extensive volunteer work, the expense and poor availability of childcare, but I am pursuing home options, one reason I am on the computer a lot now.

I DO believe that anyone who WORKS deserves to be paid enough to live on. I know that's a shocker to some, but if you don't pay someone enough to live on, then who, exactly are you expecting to pick up the tab? Basically, "society". If you cannot afford to pay someone that much, then you cannot afford to hire them, at least not full time. Your business is not profitable enough .. either do better or go out. That is the harsh reality. Now, in other threads I have gotten into more details, like the fact that small businesses pay an inordinant level of taxes, etc. I won't get into all that here. I don't fault the small owner who barely makes ends meet himself and pays his employees minimum wage. (Actually, most true small businesses I know pay their employees better than that, because they want quality workers.) I fault the giant companies who come in, get tax breaks, pay employees the barest minimums (not necessarily minimum wage, but not much more) so they can pay stockholders in another county or state or even country big profits. I fault those companies when they decide to ship their business overseas so they can make a few more dollars, particularly when some of those very same owners and stockholders are among the first to pounce on any tax increases to support the poor (i.e. thier employees),etc.

And my saying you are ignorant is nowhere near the same as saying anyone who disagrees is ignorant. I do know a good deal more about natural resource issues than many here, but there are other people who know a good deal about other subjects. I just refrain from posting on most of those topics or bow to those who have the information. There was a time when I actually respected your opinions, but you keep heading into the gutter.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:22 pm

GabonX wrote:
Every American must purchase government approved health care or pay a fine? This is their idea of universal coverage?!

Will the government have access to our medical records?

Regardless, I think this is bull shit..because it amounts to a tax on a persons mere existence.


Your "mere existance" costs every other taxpayer money if you don't have insurance. We are forbidden by law from simply leaving you at the side of the road to die if you are in a car wreck, etc.

If you should contract a disease, are you going to stay inside on self-quarantine? If you do, it is still not sure you won't be passing your contagion on to the rest of the world.

If you are not vacinated, then you risk contracting those diseases and will endanger the thousands of children who are not able to be vaccinated.

Furthermore, when you finally do get sick and decide "OK, now I can take that healthcare", you will be costing us all more than you are paying out or have paid out in the past.

So yes, you do need to pay even though at the moment you happen to be young and healthy.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:34 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:I guess you just haven't really grown up yet GabonX.
Looking over my posts here I'll concede that I still have some growing up to do.

That said, the idea that the government can fine, tax, or in any way demand money from people for no reason other than the fact that these people exist makes me angry. To say that YOU need to pay US money because WE feel that WE have to do something is wrong.

This line of thought basically amounts to the abolishment of personal liberty, as liberty would be rationed by the government, and it is absolutely unconstitutional.
Last edited by GabonX on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby haggispittjr on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:59 pm

im just happy i live in canada!
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby Timminz on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:00 pm

haggispittjr wrote:im just happy i live in canada!

+1
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby gannable on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:03 pm

everything Gabonx says here is true.

i agree 100%

i bet it will eventually become mandatory for every American to do their patriotic duty and take their vaccines and pharmaceutical drugs.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby HapSmo19 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:25 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:So yes, you do need to pay even though at the moment you happen to be young and healthy.

Actually, you need to move to Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Costa Rica, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Ukraine or the United Kingdom as well as SYFF.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby jsholty4690 on Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:02 pm

thegreekdog wrote:THEN LET'S DO IT!!!

Seriously though, this is something I don't understand (seriously) and I need clarification/guidance. Is preventative medicine, on the whole, cheaper than emergency room stays? My gut says yes.

The other thing that concerns me is that I don't know that a lot of people who currently have health insurance, who do not have some expensive-to-treat disease or malady, are taking preventative care of themselves.

In any event, here's the greekdog plan - provide healthcare for people who cannot afford it; have the government subsidize procedures that the health insurance industry won't provide (to solve player's problem with the current system, highly regulate health insurance companies so that they provide what they say they will provide, create criminal penalties for insurance fraud by insurance companies, provide a cap at least on attorneys fees from medical malpractice suits. Problem solved? Yes.


I agree with you on the malpractice problem. When need to cut medical expenses and a major part of the problem we have in the U.S. is silly law suits. (For once I agree with the Brits. I like their Tort Laws if you sue and you lose you have to pay the defendent's attorney fees and the court's expenses for holding the trial. I think that should be adapted here in the U.S. Just think no more coffee spilled in lap law suits :D).

The second thing i think we need to do is regulate Insurance fees and Medical expenses. I also agree with Gabon when he said that Emergency Rooms should be for emergencies only. If you have a nasty infection or a broken bone go to a Prompt Care (Peoria, IL has at least five). You get in and out quicker and the cost is lower than an ER vist. (Other than the time I pissed them off when I cut my finger at work a half hour before they closed. Stitched me up with no Novacaine :x).
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:06 pm

I don't at all like the idea that people who truly need care won't receive it, but there has to be something which keeps people from exploiting it. The idea that you are going to fine someone because they don't want to be part of the system that you have created is just as bad on another level.

Wouldn't it be great if people could somehow receive health care for community service?

How come I'm not a Senator?
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby Hologram on Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:13 pm

GabonX wrote:I don't at all like the idea that people who truly need care won't receive it, but there has to be something which keeps people from exploiting it. The idea that you are going to fine someone because they don't want to be part of the system that you have created is just as bad on another level.

Wouldn't it be great if people could somehow receive health care for community service?

How come I'm not a Senator?

Because the real powers that be wouldn't like you.
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby GabonX on Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:38 pm

I would rather be a Governor anyways..
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Re: Breathing Tax

Postby sirron on Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:59 pm

Let me preface by stating, I'm a conservative almost to the point of being a libertarian on issues. I believe in self sacrifice and hard work to achieve your destiny in life. I disagree with government on a lot of issues, Kyoto treaty, nafta, etc...So when I say we need major overhaul of the Medical insurance industry, this is were my head is at, as an conservative.

This issue must not be a partisan one. The people in Washington are destroying are nation for their own good. We should have tort reform like England, yes this is commonsense. then again why are the hospitals for profit. Seems where I'm from the Catholic hospital that is non-profit is the largest in the state and doesn't turn away anyone. Would we benefit from non-profit hospitals were the main goal is not making money for the stockholders.

Is government run hospitals the answer, I say no. The VA is a government run hospital system that frankly, from my experience, is poorly run and have you waiting in lines for hours and the people don't really care. Maybe I'm generalizing all VA facilities, but I do remember sixty minutes running stories on this years ago.

Do I think government has no roll in insurance no. For my experience as a youth, we were on medicaid which was government paid medical to low-income or disabled people. This was a blessing to us because my mother was disabled and a single parent, it gave us the basic medical attention we all need.

What is the greater good, health care for everybody or just the few who could afford it? Why does the rest of the world have price controls on drugs and we don't? Why does illegal aliens receive free medical for crossing the border to give birth to their babies? Especially in California. Why are we saying free markets on everything, when we don't have it in energy. or water or police? Why are we spending so much on cures for Cancer and Aids and nothing on prevention? Why is the insurance for the routine check up from your doctor why not for the major stuff?

I know I have a lot of questions here, this is serious stuff that everybody wants to choose sides. I want a debate not talking points from both sides. Debate is not happening in Washington can we have it here?
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