ATTN: People Who Believe in Creation Myths

[natty dread]

But that doesn't explain the odd phenomenon of somebody waking up at the time of their child's death and sensing that something bad has happened.

Yes it does. Many times someone's child dies and they don't wake up at that time, feeling something bad has happened. Yet, no one pays attention to that. Many times, people also wake up in the middle of the night, feeling something bad has happened, and turns out nothing has happened. No one pays attention to that either. It's only when the two occurences happen to happen at the same time, when people take notice, and then they confuse correlation with causation.

Confirmation bias.

Even assuming that the above is true, that intuition is simply our conscious mind accessing information stored in the unconscious mind, it's still an illogical thought that one would be acting on.

Let's say you suddenly get the feeling that something isn't right, so you start investigating to find out what it is that isn't right. As far as your conscious mind is concerned, the only reason you're investigating is because of a strange feeling you had. It's not because of any logical thought process, or based on any reasonable evidence. It's based on emotion, which is in and of itself illogical.

How do you know what it's based on? For all you know, your brain might have used logical reasoning without you knowing.

[tkr4lf]

But that doesn't explain the odd phenomenon of somebody waking up at the time of their child's death and sensing that something bad has happened.

Yes it does. Many times someone's child dies and they don't wake up at that time, feeling something bad has happened. Yet, no one pays attention to that. Many times, people also wake up in the middle of the night, feeling something bad has happened, and turns out nothing has happened. No one pays attention to that either. It's only when the two occurences happen to happen at the same time, when people take notice, and then they confuse correlation with causation.

Confirmation bias.

Fair enough. I'll concede that one to you.

Even assuming that the above is true, that intuition is simply our conscious mind accessing information stored in the unconscious mind, it's still an illogical thought that one would be acting on.

Let's say you suddenly get the feeling that something isn't right, so you start investigating to find out what it is that isn't right. As far as your conscious mind is concerned, the only reason you're investigating is because of a strange feeling you had. It's not because of any logical thought process, or based on any reasonable evidence. It's based on emotion, which is in and of itself illogical.

How do you know what it's based on? For all you know, your brain might have used logical reasoning without you knowing.

The first part of what you cut out of my post answers that.

Even if there is a logical reason you received that emotion, the reason is unknown to your conscious mind, making acting upon that emotion an illogical response.

Basically, even if your unconscious mind used logic/reasoning to figure something out, and deliver that message to your conscious mind, your conscious mind would have no way of knowing that. As far as your conscious mind knows, you just got a gut feeling about something. Therefore, acting upon that gut feeling is an illogical action, because as far as you know, there is no logical reason to have that feeling.

Does that make sense?

[natty dread]

Basically, even if your unconscious mind used logic/reasoning to figure something out, and deliver that message to your conscious mind, your conscious mind would have no way of knowing that. As far as your conscious mind knows, you just got a gut feeling about something. Therefore, acting upon that gut feeling is an illogical action, because as far as you know, there is no logical reason to have that feeling.

Does that make sense?

Sort of, but then it just becomes a semantics issue, or a matter of definition... what is considered logical thought? If you uncosciously use logic but aren't aware of it, are you still being logical?

Or maybe it's just better to say that your brain is acting logically, even when you're not consciously applying logic.

[Night Strike]

But hey, it's my choice, I can teach whatever I want to my kid.

You should go ahead and do that. Teaching kids about religion and creation does not hinder their social interactions. You just think it makes them all idiots, which is also patently false.

Teaching them ABOUT religion and creation absolutely doesn't make them stupid. Teaching them that creation beliefs are equal to science and disputing verified science, teaching outright lies as if they were true is not only harmful, it is flat out unChristian.

Christ does not teach his followers to lie. Believing Young Earth ideas requires being utterly ignorant of scientific processes, of how the Earth and geology works. It requires either lying or believing a lie.

Please quote correctly.

If believing in young earth creation is a lie, the Bible wouldn't have included that God spoke on six different days and everything we see and know came into existence. And people misinterpret scientific findings all the time. They assume birds came from dinosaurs, people came from monkeys, etc., yet there is no proof of that happening. Furthermore, this would have happened all over the world, not just in one single area, right around where the Bible says that the first people were created. Some scientists look at similar DNA strands, bone structures, etc. and automatically assume it means evolution is true. Christians look at that same evidence and see the implications of a structure that works and can be applied to a wide range of creatures.

Also, you claim in another post that if creationists points were valid, then they could publish them in scientific journals. We've already seen proof in other areas, like global warming, that anyone who wants to challenge the beliefs of the established scientific community has an incredibly steep if not downright impossible task of getting their research and ideas published. The editors claim that the work isn't rigorous enough, but that's only because the conclusions drawn in the paper don't agree with theirs. That's why all these scientists are forced to publish in lesser journals: all the big ones collude to keep their conclusions out.

[Juan_Bottom]

You can disagree with Christianity all you want. What's bigoted is your flat out insistence that all Christians are automatically stupid for believing it and that because you don't believe in it you are inherently better than those that do. If I had taken your exact same comments towards Christianity and would have instead pointed them towards Muslims, you would have immediately (and rightfully) labeled me as a bigot and reported me. We only ask that you be treated the same way.

My insistence is that they are being dumb when they believe in dumb things. For example, I did not attack Christian Charity because there are lots of good ideas practiced by Christians.
No, I specifically attacked Creationism. I've got no problem with you attacking retarded Muslim beliefs. Aw hell, most Muslims believe in Creationism, so I'll even join you.

When you believe in a lot of retarded things, then I'm going to start knocking IQ points away from you. Take Alex Jones for example. That guy obviously knows how to passionately speak, and he knows everything about his field. Even though those things make him sound brilliant, and his memorization is phenomenal, he's still preaching global conspiracy. Thus, he sounds smart but also sounds retarded.

You opened your argument with

The real bottom line is that to hold a Christians or a Creationists position is to hold an inferior one to mine.

The rest of your text may have been talking about creationism, but you clearly opened the argument with Christians being inferior to you.

That's not where I opened my argument. I started on page 2 and this is from page 10. Ya'll kept trying to tie Christianity into Creationism to help paint me as a bigot. I oft see the Christian's trying to satisfy their persecution complex like this, so I wasn't surprised. And I didn't care - cause Christians believe and do all types of dumb stuff. For example, they get up early on a Sunday morning to vampirically consume the blood and flesh of a dead God.
As I say I'm prejudiced against flagrant Stupidity, not against humanity.

Creationists should be lumped together. Anyone that believes in something absurd is foolish, no exceptions. They may be respectable in other areas, sure, but in that, no.

I chose not to make an argument here because I expected other people would. You're exactly right. I group them all together because of this retarded belief that unites them. That seems logical to me.

juan, please tell me more ways that i can gain perceived IQ points in your eyes

your estimation of my intelligence is very important to me

Good point.

[Juan_Bottom]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

What's the context of what this is from?
Alone this quotation is saying that Einstein would infer or dream up with an idea, and then use rationality to flesh it out. I went over this a few times to make sure that I wasn't misinterpreting it. And this makes sense to me because Einstein daydreamed his theories into being. It's in no way a defense for holding sacred retarded beliefs.

Even if it's for the love of my life. I mean f*ck. The closest I'd get to converting would be if I did find the love of my life. I'd fake it if it meant I could be with her.

Add me on facebook and I'll introduce you to some Atheist networks. The most beautiful Atheist in the world lives in Canada. But she's Canadian-Palestinian-Italian-Philippeno...something... Whenever one of my friends meets a girl we all say "SHE AIN'T NO SABRINA D!"

[Night Strike]

And I didn't care - cause Christians believe and do all types of dumb stuff. For example, they get up early on a Sunday morning to vampirically consume the blood and flesh of a dead God.

Wow.

[Serbia]

Ya'll kept trying to tie Christianity into Creationism to help paint me as a bigot.

Are you completely ignorant of the Christian Bible? Do you not know that it opens with a Creation story? It is essentially the basis for the religion. The basis in that, since God created the world and all that is in it, he owns the world, and all that it is in it, and makes the rules. (overly simplistic description) I know many Christians for whom the literal 6 day creation story is as critical to their religion as Jesus Christ dying for their sins. Your complete and utter dismissal of these people as being retarded, and beneath you, is bigoted. But obviously you wear the badge proudly.

[natty dread]

Ya'll kept trying to tie Christianity into Creationism to help paint me as a bigot.

Are you completely ignorant of the Christian Bible? Do you not know that it opens with a Creation story? It is essentially the basis for the religion. The basis in that, since God created the world and all that is in it, he owns the world, and all that it is in it, and makes the rules. (overly simplistic description) I know many Christians for whom the literal 6 day creation story is as critical to their religion as Jesus Christ dying for their sins. Your complete and utter dismissal of these people as being retarded, and beneath you, is bigoted. But obviously you wear the badge proudly.

If someone at this time and day seriously believes the world was created in 6 days, and that the universe is only 6000 years old, they are idiots (I don't like to use the word "retarded", otherwise I'd agree with Juan).

There's just so much evidence disproving those ideas, that there's no excuse for such ignorance.

[Juan_Bottom]

Even so, many Christians consider it a Parable. Christianity is not the same thing as Creationism.

It's hard enough to take you seriously knowing that you're a Red Wings fan. But what you just said is my position still makes good sense to me. If they can't defend their reasoning and get hurt by people laughing at how stupid it is, then why don't they change their opinions? Why do we have to bend over backwards to make them feel intellectually equal to the rest of us?

I also feel that racists are far beneath me. They also deny science. Am I bigoted towards racists & do you think that they are intelligent people worthy of your respect?
It's all from the same tree of ignorance.

[Juan_Bottom]

(I don't like to use the word "retarded", otherwise I'd agree with Juan)

I respect that.
& thank God that someone is willing to say that they agree. I've been on the razor's edge of a ban since page 2.

[Night Strike]

I also feel that racists are far beneath me. They also deny science. Am I bigoted towards racists & do you think that they are intelligent people worthy of your respect?
It's all from the same tree of ignorance.

Except there is a major difference between not tolerating a group that is already bigoted and not tolerating a group that simply has different beliefs than you. You are a prime example of the latter, not the former. I am a Christian and have never once denied science. I disagree with the interpretations of the data revolving around things like evolution and global warming, but I don't deny science. I am a scientist, so of course I wouldn't deny my own field.

[Juan_Bottom]

But you do deny the science that dates our planet. It crosses so many different disciplines that it's impossible to disagree with the conclusions. And when you disagree with evolution, you don't back up your reason very well at all. So far every point that you've raised was already answered years ago. Some by Darwin himself. So you're not speaking against it in a scientific manner. You haven't followed the literature... because you believe so firmly in the Bible as being literal that you don't think that you have to. You are denying science in favor of chicken bones.

Also, fine, then I'll use a different example. I don't respect the members of NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association). They believe that it's healthy for a child to take an adult lover. They're not bigoted, but they are retarded and need to be kept from gaining any political power or control over any school boards. Same thing.

[natty dread]

I am a Christian and have never once denied science.

You deny science every second post you make.

[Night Strike]

Also, fine, then I'll use a different example. I don't respect the members of NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association). They believe that it's healthy for a child to take an adult lover. They're not bigoted, but they are retarded and need to be kept from gaining any political power or control over any school boards. Same thing.

That's because pedophilia is illegal (for now). Being a Christian or believing in creation is not illegal (in this country).

[Juan_Bottom]

You do understand that I can do this all day, don't you?

[tkr4lf]

Basically, even if your unconscious mind used logic/reasoning to figure something out, and deliver that message to your conscious mind, your conscious mind would have no way of knowing that. As far as your conscious mind knows, you just got a gut feeling about something. Therefore, acting upon that gut feeling is an illogical action, because as far as you know, there is no logical reason to have that feeling.

Does that make sense?

Sort of, but then it just becomes a semantics issue, or a matter of definition... what is considered logical thought? If you uncosciously use logic but aren't aware of it, are you still being logical?

I honestly don't know. It's a great question, though.

Or maybe it's just better to say that your brain is acting logically, even when you're not consciously applying logic.

This would be a good way to put it, I suppose.

[tkr4lf]

This doesn't necessarily pertain to this thread, but I thought I should post it anyway.

People always seem to worship rationality and logic, as if they're the be all to end all.

Here's a good quote I quite enjoy from Einstein, someone who should be pretty well respected by most around here.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

What's the context of what this is from?

I have no clue. I first saw it in the video game Hitman: Blood Money. After successfully completing a mission, the front page of a newspaper is shown detailing your assassination, along with various other stories and whatnot. On some of them, there is a quote at the bottom. This quote was one of those. There was also a couple from Bush, Jr.

When we talk about war, we are actually talking about peace.

I have opinions, strong opinions, but I don't alway agree with them.

Haha, yeah, he actually said those things. But I doubt anybody is surprised.

Anyway, after that I looked it up online and according to everything I've seen, it actually is a quote from Einstein. Where he said it or why, I have no idea.

Alone this quotation is saying that Einstein would infer or dream up with an idea, and then use rationality to flesh it out. I went over this a few times to make sure that I wasn't misinterpreting it. And this makes sense to me because Einstein daydreamed his theories into being.

What? How do you get that from his quote? He didn't say anything about himself, or how he came up with his theories.

It's saying that logic/reasoning is a faithful tool for humanity, and that intuition is a sacred gift to humanity (yeah, Einstein believed in god, I guess you're going to deduct 20 points from his IQ now?). He then goes on to comment on how our society honors the tool, but has forgotten the gift. Honestly, I don't see how in the hell you could get anything else out of that quote. It's a comment on society, and how we use and honor logic, but completely forget about intuition and/or outright dismiss it.

It's in no way a defense for holding sacred retarded beliefs.

Yeah, I know. I didn't say that it was. I don't think anybody did. It's highly doubtful that anybody would think that it said that, since it, you know, didn't say that.

[tkr4lf]

Also, fine, then I'll use a different example. I don't respect the members of NAMBLA (the North American Man-Boy Love Association). They believe that it's healthy for a child to take an adult lover. They're not bigoted, but they are retarded and need to be kept from gaining any political power or control over any school boards. Same thing.

That's because pedophilia is illegal (for now). Being a Christian or believing in creation is not illegal (in this country).

What do you mean "for now"? Are you one of those people who thinks that allowing gay marriages/homosexual relationships is going to lead to pedophilia being legalized and having adult/minor marriages and shit?

Because, seriously, that is fucking retarded.

There is a reason why pedophilia is illegal. It causes serious physical, emotional and psychological harm to the minor. Homosexual relationships/marriages cause none of these things. How would allowing two consenting adults to be in a relationship/get married lead to allowing one consenting adult and one minor (who is legally incapable of consent, although I guess in your view that would change...I don't know) to be in a relationship/get married? That makes no damn sense.

[natty dread]

Einstein believed in god

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

[tkr4lf]

Einstein believed in god

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

I stand corrected.

Looks like I held a common misconception to be truth. Thanks for pointing that out, Natty.


Edit: Upon further viewing of sourced quotes from Einstein, he basically believed that god is nature/reality/our universe.

Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.

I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.

When the answer is simple, God is speaking.

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views.

What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos.

As I have said so many times, God doesn't play dice with the world.

Edit 2: Haha, just found this one by Einstein as well. Figured Juan would like it...

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres.

Edit 3: Why is it that when I edit a post to fix a typo, it shows that I edited the post, but when I add in substantial amounts of content, it doesn't show that it's been edited at all?

[MeDeFe]

Edit 3: Why is it that when I edit a post to fix a typo, it shows that I edited the post, but when I add in substantial amounts of content, it doesn't show that it's been edited at all?

Because noone else had posted after you while you were editing.

[Serbia]

You do understand that I can do this all day, don't you?

Just like a racist can attempt to justify his racism all day, using examples that don't justify anything and have nothing to do with his point? Yeah, I can see you attempting to justify your bigoted superiority feeling in the same manner all day too.

[Haggis_McMutton]

religion's staying power is due to its beneficial impact on society (which is why i feel that atheism is a more dangerous belief than young earth creationism). this concerns the cultural aspect of religion.

religion is just a very efficient meme that has implanted itself deeply in our collective minds. It's effectiveness as a meme says nothing to how beneficial or detrimental it is.

furthermore, why should we be concerned about the truth of an idea in the cultural domain? what is more important is the actual impact it has.

Is this just a very fancy way of saying "Sure WE can handle the truth, but what about the great unwashed masses? How will we keep them in line without the threats and rewards of religion.?"

[john9blue]

religion's staying power is due to its beneficial impact on society (which is why i feel that atheism is a more dangerous belief than young earth creationism). this concerns the cultural aspect of religion.

religion is just a very efficient meme that has implanted itself deeply in our collective minds. It's effectiveness as a meme says nothing to how beneficial or detrimental it is.

then how can you explain the hundreds of different religions that developed independently among different civilizations across the globe? religion as a concept wasn't started by just one person.

furthermore, what makes religion "very efficient" as a meme? there are other worldviews that give even more personal satisfaction (e.g. solipsism) but they aren't nearly as popular.

furthermore, why should we be concerned about the truth of an idea in the cultural domain? what is more important is the actual impact it has.

Is this just a very fancy way of saying "Sure WE can handle the truth, but what about the great unwashed masses? How will we keep them in line without the threats and rewards of religion.?"

maybe... except your idea of "the truth" (atheism) is just another system of beliefs (which in recent years has been shown to have just as much memetic potential as religion, if not more).

organized religion isn't really for me, but i understand the beneficial impact it has on many people's lives and therefore i support it. this is a step that i feel a lot of modern atheists don't take. "i don't like organized religion so it must be bad for society, let's eliminate it". yeah, no.