Forced to be Christian

[DaGip]

That brought the crazy evangelicals to their feet.

Just like to state that Luns is actually the AntiLuns and had been fooling everyone into supporting his communistic idealogy, and I really don't know why he was upset with my Jesus Luns aVatar, as he doesn't really believe in God anyway? He wants us all to be communist and socialistic...GO ANTiLUNS, GO!

[mpjh]

Koolaide is row 17 on the left, upper shelf.

[DaGip]

Koolaide is row 17 on the left, upper shelf.

cool!

[CrazyAnglican]

Koolaide is row 17 on the left, upper shelf.

So, attempts to prop up your conjecture failing, you're still trying ad-hominem? Funny that you'd try this when you're clearly the one denying the big picture.

Once again, nobody denies that religious people can commit any manner of terrible acts (along with any manner of great ones). It's just that you can't go there with the idea that those without religion are not just as guilty. The facts just do not support that kind of one sided supposition.

For my sarcasm, I apologize as well though.

[mpjh]

W is guilty of lying to the American people and taking this country into an unjust war that killed over a million innocent people. You can do what you want with the guilt, but we will live with the consequences of this tragedy for many years to come.

Good riddance to W, and the koolaide drinkers that supported him.

[CrazyAnglican]

Once again, nobody denies that religious people can commit any manner of terrible acts (along with any manner of great ones). It's just that you can't go there with the idea that those without religion are not just as guilty. The facts just do not support that kind of one sided supposition.


Tell me, honestly and without the soapbox. Are you really denying the 8 or so million that died at the hands of the Bolsheviks and Stalinists?

Do you really believe that such a well documented atrocity as the PRC's purges, Great Leap Forward, etc. did claim at least 40 million of their own citizens? Here is a bibliography with tons of cited sources.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000 [make link]
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
Brzezinski:
Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
Daniel Chirot:
Land reform, 1949-56
According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M
Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:
Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
Gilbert:
1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
Cited by G & P:
Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
(NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
Guinness Book of World Records:
Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
Harff and Gurr:
KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
R. J. Rummel:
Estimate:
Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
The principle episodes being...
All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
War: 3,399,000
Famine: 34,500,000
Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
TOTAL: 72,260,000
Cited in Rummel:
Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.
Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971, report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary) "Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
Cong Jin: 40 million
Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a result of Mao's policies.
Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D. Aikman:
Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final number from this neighborhood. Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by two different authorities, you can slide the median up and down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny, so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless to get attached to any one of them, because the real number could easily be half or twice any number here.
Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the individual components. The medians here are:
Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T (8 estimates, see below)
Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000 deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which ignore the famine:
"If these are the numbers that they came up with without the famine, imagine how high the true number will be once you add the famine deaths."
"Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much about what was going on inside China."
... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date 1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost the same".)

[muy_thaiguy]

Once again, nobody denies that religious people can commit any manner of terrible acts (along with any manner of great ones). It's just that you can't go there with the idea that those without religion are not just as guilty. The facts just do not support that kind of one sided supposition.


Tell me, honestly and without the soapbox. Are you really denying the 8 or so million that died at the hands of the Bolsheviks and Stalinists?

That's a conservative number, unless you mean the initial Civil War itself, and the immediate aftermath, then I think it would work.

[CrazyAnglican]

Yes, I'd agree. I could post a bibliography of that as well, but I'm sure there is little point in going into a body count kind of situation. The plain and simple facts are there. I'll make no argument as to the justification of GW opening a front in Iraq. That is not the point of the debate. The OP has been sincere in his attempts to lay this at the feet of some religion based only on GW's Christianity, but at every turn his cited sources are either anecdotal, too vague, or just plain wrong.

[PLAYER57832]

It is people who commit atrocities, not religions.

[brooksieb]

It is people who commit atrocities, not religions.

QFT

[mpjh]

Yes, and it is religion that justifies them.

[brooksieb]

Yes, and it is religion that justifies them.

No, it's bitter old men, not religion.

[CrazyAnglican]

Yes, and it is religion that justifies them.

Right, and the killing of 40 to 75 million by the People's Republic of China were justified by which religion?

Which religion justified the 5 to 8 million deaths at the hands of Stalin?

I noticed that you don't seem to want to answer my question about whether or not you recognize that these atrocities occurred? Do you deny that they happened despite the fact that they are well documented and cannot be tied to any religion?

[mpjh]

The People's Republic of China did not kill 75 million innocent civilians.

[muy_thaiguy]

The People's Republic of China did not kill 75 million innocent civilians.

Conservative estimates put it between 20 and 40 million. Liberal estimates put at about 100 million. 75 million is a good between number for this. But once again, you fail to even try to back up your opinion, while CA and I have been posting stuff you can find even on wikipedia. Example?

The implementation of Maoist thought in China may have been responsible for over 70 million excessive deaths during peacetime,[2][3] with the Cultural Revolution, Anti-Rightist Campaign of 1957-58,[4] and the Great Leap Forward. Because of Mao's land reforms during the Great Leap Forward, which resulted in famines, thirty million perished between 1958 and 1961. By the end of 1961 the birth rate was nearly cut in half because of malnutrition. [5] Active campaigns, including party purges and "reeducation" resulted in imprisonment and/or the execution of those deemed contrary to the implementation of Maoist ideals. [6] Mao's failure with the Leap reduced his power in government, whose administrative duties fell on Liu Shaoqi and Deng Xiaoping.

wikipedia's article

So please, make an informed statement instead of simple opinion.

[mpjh]

usi9ng your own sources many,

doubt statistics or accounts given for death tolls or other damages incurred by Mao's campaigns, attributing the high death toll to natural disasters, famine, or other consequences of political chaos during the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek.

China's population grew from 574 million to 674 million between 1952 and 1962, an incredible feat for a country coming out of WWII into a civil war and revolution. Today's China feeds its own people and is a manufacturing work horse for the world. It has modern cities and infrastructure, and is continuing to challenge the west's preconceived notions.

[muy_thaiguy]

usi9ng your own sources many,

doubt statistics or accounts given for death tolls or other damages incurred by Mao's campaigns, attributing the high death toll to natural disasters, famine, or other consequences of political chaos during the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek.

China's population grew from 574 million to 674 million between 1952 and 1962, an incredible feat for a country coming out of WWII into a civil war and revolution. Today's China feeds its own people and is a manufacturing work horse for the world. It has modern cities and infrastructure, and is continuing to challenge the west's preconceived notions.

First of all, that little quote wasn't to my knowledge (link please, for once?), and during the Great Leap Forward, etc, Chiang Kai-Shek wasn't even in mainland China, he was over in Taiwan with the other capitalists after being pushed out of the mainland in 1949.
Also, China suffered those millions upon millions of casualties after that population boom, which, contrary to what you posted, occurred at least 9 years after Kai-Shek left the continent.

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/china/geog/population.htm

So please, I look forward to where you get all of this "correct" information, as I did not see that little tidbit of yours anywhere.

[mpjh]

I used your sources. Goggle it.

The numbers are challenged by the facts. China's population grew by over 100 million during the time in question (that is half of what our total population was). It was a country in upheaval trying to overcome feudalism, years of colonial exploitation by western governments, a world war, a civil war, and a revolution. In large part it succeeded.

At its founding in 1949 the People’s Republic of China had a population of 540 million. Only three decades later its population was more than 800 million. This enormous population increase created a strong population momentum that still drives population growth despite rapidly declining fertility in the late 1970s and 1980s (see Figure 1). In 1995, China's population reached 1.23 billion.

If the 75 million deaths were to be believed the growth rate in China would have to have been twice the world average during that time to replace the 75 million and grow at the same time. Your figures are pure anti-communist propaganda.

[muy_thaiguy]

I used your sources. Goggle it.

The numbers are challenged by the facts. China's population grew by over 100 million during the time in question (that is half of what our total population was). It was a country in upheaval trying to overcome feudalism, years of colonial exploitation by western governments, a world war, a civil war, and a revolution. In large part it succeeded.

The fact is, you refuse to post any sources. You don't read through any posts, if you had, you would have seen I posted the boom happened after incredible mismanagement and brutal secret police that kept nay sayers as close to 0 as possible (well, what the government called nay sayers). You aren't refuting anything I have posted, in fact, you are merely digging yourself deeper into a hole where you needn't be in the first place.

And, why should I have to Google anything? Why can't you simply copy and paste the web link? I have provided the information and the weblinks for my sources, you have yet to post a single one. So until you do, you are not providing anything worthwhile to this historical debate whatsoever.

[mpjh]

Actually, I have refuted everything you said. You, on the other hand, can't even quote all that I said. Furthermore, I am not writing a dissertation, I give you information and if you want to check out the sources, goggle it. You will learn more that way.

[luns101]

Whatever the figure is you finally decide to accept, mpjh...you still haven't answered Anglican's question.

It's not like 20 million people are insignificant and worthless individuals

[muy_thaiguy]

Actually, I have refuted everything you said. You, on the other hand, can't even quote all that I said. Furthermore, I am not writing a dissertation, I give you information and if you want to check out the sources, goggle it. You will learn more that way.

Oh? You mean like this?

usi9ng your own sources many,

doubt statistics or accounts given for death tolls or other damages incurred by Mao's campaigns, attributing the high death toll to natural disasters, famine, or other consequences of political chaos during the rule of Chiang Kai-Shek.

China's population grew from 574 million to 674 million between 1952 and 1962, an incredible feat for a country coming out of WWII into a civil war and revolution. Today's China feeds its own people and is a manufacturing work horse for the world. It has modern cities and infrastructure, and is continuing to challenge the west's preconceived notions.

This puts a huge hinderence to your argument, claiming that the deaths fell solely on Kai-Shek, even though during the Great Leap Forward, he was in Taiwan whereas Mao was the one governing and responsible for the great mismanagement of The Peoples Republic of China during the Great Leap Forward. Then you turn around and claim that it is

pure anti-communist propaganda.

You look like you need to get your story straight.

Next, I have no need to continuously Google some little paragraph you found that already has a major historical inaccuracy in it as it has already proved to be at the very least, a bogus history site. Especially since you refuse to give me a link to verify what you said. Half of what you tell me is nothing more then ad hominem insults. For some reason though, I get the feeling that this source of yours is one of those "Hail Mao!" sites or "The Joys and Positives of Communism in China." I mean, seriously, how hard is it to simply post the link?

And for the last time, the numbers of 20-40 million are the conservative numbers, and 100 million are quite liberal during that whole time. The answer lies probably somewhere in the middle. Especially considering Mao and his China never actually verified the number of people that died due to his mismanagement and the "successes" of Communism in which any person that knows two bits about history will tell you that it just doesn't work except in propaganda films and paper.

[mpjh]

I pointed out that the population growth of China during the period in question contradicts the kind of draconian deaths that the antI-communists claim. That answers the post about Mao's influence in China. The death rates throughout Europe and Asia were high both during WWII, for obvious reasons, and afterwords because of the severe damage those countries had experienced, but the evidence that Mao and the revolution in China caused extra deaths beyond those that flowed from WWII, continued famine from the colonial era, and a civil war is not supported by the data.

[muy_thaiguy]

I pointed out that the population growth of China during the period in question contradicts the kind of draconian deaths that the antI-communists claim. That answers the post about Mao's influence in China. The death rates throughout Europe and Asia were high both during WWII, for obvious reasons, and afterwords because of the severe damage those countries had experienced, but the evidence that Mao and the revolution in China caused extra deaths beyond those that flowed from WWII, continued famine from the colonial era, and a civil war is not supported by the data.

Really now, you want to go into WWII? Of course there were high casualties in both parts of the world, there was a world war going on. However, after WWII, the only countries that truly suffered, were those behind the Iron Curtain and other Communistic countries. I mean, how many people from Western Europe tried to go and join the Soviets compared to those that tried to cross into Western Europe to escape them? The Western World that had embraced capitalism were experiencing massive economic booms. Those in Communist countries, only the ones at the top actually had any economic growth. (And we'll call that good for Europe, yes?)
China though, after the Japanese surrendered in 1945, their Civil War continued from before the Japanese invasion between the Nationalist Party (Pro Capitalist) and the Communist Party. The Communist Party had the advantage in numbers and eventually drove the outnumbered Nationalist Party out (as has been stated). It was following this, that during the Great Leap Forward (which you seem to ignore) is when the easily 20 million people died, not counting the purges of during the Civil War of course. And would you please, just please, post this link of yours that you claim is refuting what is often excepted by many respected historians? Otherwise, your argument is baseless and continuing is rather pointless.
As for your population growth, did you not read what I posted? Guess not. And, as I just wrote, it does not contradict it, unless you are writing about a population growth at the exact same time that millions upon millions of innocents were dying due to numerous causes? So if you please, post the link in which you get this "information," otherwise it is merely an opinion which is soon swept under the tug.

[Iliad]

It is people who commit atrocities, not religions.

Yet notice how religion drives them to it. Whether religion warped the minds of the superstitious or allowed the crafty to manipulate others with it, it does not matter. Religion has been a major cause of atrocities throughout history.

Yes, and it is religion that justifies them.

Right, and the killing of 40 to 75 million by the People's Republic of China were justified by which religion?

Which religion justified the 5 to 8 million deaths at the hands of Stalin?

I noticed that you don't seem to want to answer my question about whether or not you recognize that these atrocities occurred? Do you deny that they happened despite the fact that they are well documented and cannot be tied to any religion?

Let me get this straight. Your argument is
"So what religion has been used to justify and garner support for atrocities throughout history! Look, here are some atrocities, not caused by religion"
Yeah, congrats on religion not being the source of all atrocities and all.