Post Any Evidence For God Here

[Woodruff]

Death and decay is the natural result of sin.

That's an interesting assertion. I would like to see you attempt to prove it; even biblically....

I answered from the Bible because the challenge was made if I could show that from the Bible.

No it wasn't. Your quote was made in direct response to a post of mine, and I asked you for no such thing. Do all Christians make a habit of lying, or is it just those who are as deluded as you seem to be?

My premise is that the original intention of creation was not a dying world but a living world. But that sin changed that.

Resulting in overpopulation and...

No intention can be proven, only documented. "He said, She said" But the actions are what is visible. For the actions of God to be seen in full we must simply wait until the final judgment of all things for there is an end to all things and a final judgment to be feared by all creation.

Typical religious blathering about how "we're not capable of knowing but it really is true, I promise". I thought this thread was about actual evidence?

That we live in a dying universe does not mean that it had or has to be this way. But even the laws of physics agree and testify that our universe and our world is in a constant state of decay and death. But this in no means is evidence that this world or this universe had or has to be this way.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas.

[Woodruff]

This is the logic of trial by combat: God will not let the bad guy win. And only God knows who's good or bad.
For evidence, you invite us to look at the fact that the people in prison are mostly those who broke laws. Stunning logic. Well done, I'd never have known that.

It fits in perfectly with his view of everything. After all, the Bible is the word of God because it says it's divinely inspired. If it is divinely inspired, then it must be the word of God.

He doesn't even try to fight the circularity.

[Woodruff]

Good. Looks like universalcairo made a big enough fool of himself here. Thanks for playing! Come back again!

Thank you B.B.S. for the verbal persecution.
Matthew 5: 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

So then all homosexuals WILL be in heaven! Very generous of you to agree.

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Homosexuals the world over should be accepted by the religious then. Why aren't they? Probably because people like you are still persecuting them and falsely saying all kinds of evil against them.

B.B.S. , God is knocking at the door of your heart, He is patient for you.

What you call patience, I call apathy.

[BigBallinStalin]

The answer: All miscarriages are a result of sin.

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3:5

You still need to demonstrate that your claim, "All miscarriages are a result of sin," is true.

Good luck revealing the mind of God and showing that you actually have access to God's mind.


Oh, and apparently you have been claiming that you know what God wants of yourself and of others. Any heretic can do the same, so please differentiate yourself from a heretic.

"All miscarriages are a result of sin": The wages of sin is death. Prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, there was no death. All Miscarriages are a death of life. Therefore, before sin, there was no miscarriages.

Miscarriages can be a result of 3 generations prior to of unrepentant sin. Exodus 20"20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. So the death of miscarriage can be either from immediate sin, parental sin, but all are subject and are under the bondage of the curse of sin from Adam and Eve. But through the pain of loss, Romans 8: 28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose."

Do Christians have access to the mind of God? The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

So yes, Believers in God, those that are saved, have the mind of Christ and can rightly discern the Scriptures given to us by God. And this is why I speak with authority of matters concerning the heart. Not because of my mind, but for that which the Holy Spirit reveals to all believers. The truths contained within the Bible.

The Bible is God's own testimony of Himself, what He has already done, what He will do and who He is. The Bible is also God's requirements for us. So that we have wisdom to be skilled at living and have life more abundantly and how to avoid the consequences of sin. But God came for all to believe, for all to see, for all He sent His Son to die an agonizing death on the cross to bear in full their cost of sin. God is here waiting for you.

I don't need to prove myself, for I'm not saying anything about me. I'm merely saying what God has declared. So to distinguish me from any heretic, still goes back to the scriptures. Even if the rankest sinner, quotes John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The power of that verse can change lives. Sure the fruit of someone's life determines whether one listens, but God's word is a roaring Lion, it just to be unleashed and it will change lives. Not the cleverness of the one sharing the word of God.

Your circular reasoning is showing. Since your claim rests upon a logical fallacy, we can reasonably discard it.

Your interpretation of various meanings in the Bible from other human beings' interpretations, editing, etc. is not absolute/fully objective, so Yeah, you are saying something about yourself, but not what God has declared. That was easy!

Anyway, please differentiate yourself from a heretic.

[Viceroy63]

The answer: All miscarriages are a result of sin.

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3:5

You still need to demonstrate that your claim, "All miscarriages are a result of sin," is true.

Good luck revealing the mind of God and showing that you actually have access to God's mind.


Oh, and apparently you have been claiming that you know what God wants of yourself and of others. Any heretic can do the same, so please differentiate yourself from a heretic.

"All miscarriages are a result of sin": The wages of sin is death. Prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, there was no death. All Miscarriages are a death of life. Therefore, before sin, there was no miscarriages.

Miscarriages can be a result of 3 generations prior to of unrepentant sin. Exodus 20"20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. So the death of miscarriage can be either from immediate sin, parental sin, but all are subject and are under the bondage of the curse of sin from Adam and Eve. But through the pain of loss, Romans 8: 28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose."

Do Christians have access to the mind of God? The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

So yes, Believers in God, those that are saved, have the mind of Christ and can rightly discern the Scriptures given to us by God. And this is why I speak with authority of matters concerning the heart. Not because of my mind, but for that which the Holy Spirit reveals to all believers. The truths contained within the Bible.

The Bible is God's own testimony of Himself, what He has already done, what He will do and who He is. The Bible is also God's requirements for us. So that we have wisdom to be skilled at living and have life more abundantly and how to avoid the consequences of sin. But God came for all to believe, for all to see, for all He sent His Son to die an agonizing death on the cross to bear in full their cost of sin. God is here waiting for you.

I don't need to prove myself, for I'm not saying anything about me. I'm merely saying what God has declared. So to distinguish me from any heretic, still goes back to the scriptures. Even if the rankest sinner, quotes John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The power of that verse can change lives. Sure the fruit of someone's life determines whether one listens, but God's word is a roaring Lion, it just to be unleashed and it will change lives. Not the cleverness of the one sharing the word of God.

Very well put!

About the mind of God part; I would add that the natural mind of man, is hostile naturally towards God.

This is not a judgment but a simple truth that Man is simply unable to come to grips with and to understand all by himself. This is inspired knowledge that can only come from the God who created us. Otherwise we simply would not be aware of this fact. Just like the fact that man is basically evil and not good.

But even if that is the natural state of man's mind, man can choose to rise above that mentality. God does the work but man makes the choice to allow God to do the work. There are things that God simply can not do. He can not make your choice for you.

The one thing that God can not create is "Free Will." Some people believe that "Free Will" is a gift that we are all given, But I believe that "Free Will" is not something that we have given to us, but rather something that is being created in us. The ability to either Choose to obey and believe in God or not.

[Woodruff]

The answer: All miscarriages are a result of sin.

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3:5

You still need to demonstrate that your claim, "All miscarriages are a result of sin," is true.

Good luck revealing the mind of God and showing that you actually have access to God's mind.


Oh, and apparently you have been claiming that you know what God wants of yourself and of others. Any heretic can do the same, so please differentiate yourself from a heretic.

"All miscarriages are a result of sin": The wages of sin is death. Prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, there was no death. All Miscarriages are a death of life. Therefore, before sin, there was no miscarriages.

Miscarriages can be a result of 3 generations prior to of unrepentant sin. Exodus 20"20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. So the death of miscarriage can be either from immediate sin, parental sin, but all are subject and are under the bondage of the curse of sin from Adam and Eve. But through the pain of loss, Romans 8: 28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose."

Do Christians have access to the mind of God? The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

So yes, Believers in God, those that are saved, have the mind of Christ and can rightly discern the Scriptures given to us by God. And this is why I speak with authority of matters concerning the heart. Not because of my mind, but for that which the Holy Spirit reveals to all believers. The truths contained within the Bible.

The Bible is God's own testimony of Himself, what He has already done, what He will do and who He is. The Bible is also God's requirements for us. So that we have wisdom to be skilled at living and have life more abundantly and how to avoid the consequences of sin. But God came for all to believe, for all to see, for all He sent His Son to die an agonizing death on the cross to bear in full their cost of sin. God is here waiting for you.

I don't need to prove myself, for I'm not saying anything about me. I'm merely saying what God has declared. So to distinguish me from any heretic, still goes back to the scriptures. Even if the rankest sinner, quotes John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The power of that verse can change lives. Sure the fruit of someone's life determines whether one listens, but God's word is a roaring Lion, it just to be unleashed and it will change lives. Not the cleverness of the one sharing the word of God.

Very well put!

About the mind of God part; I would add that the natural mind of man, is hostile naturally towards God.

This is not a judgment but a simple truth that Man is simply unable to come to grips with and to understand all by himself. This is inspired knowledge that can only come from the God who created us. Otherwise we simply would not be aware of this fact. Just like the fact that man is basically evil and not good.

But even if that is the natural state of man's mind, man can choose to rise above that mentality. God does the work but man makes the choice to allow God to do the work. There are things that God simply can not do. He can not make your choice for you.

The one thing that God can not create is "Free Will." Some people believe that "Free Will" is a gift that we are all given, But I believe that "Free Will" is not something that we have given to us, but rather something that is being created in us. The ability to either Choose to obey and believe in God or not.

Well at least you two circle-jerkers can continue with your cognitive bias, but you're really not doing anything more than slapping each other on the back. The fact is that you're being largely viewed as a joke, because you don't even try to use rationality. There IS some rationality to religion, even as viewed by an atheist like myself. But you two haven't even approached it. All you do is spout Bible verses in an effort to support the validity of the Bible and God, as if that proves anything. You could learn a lot from religious folks like tzor and daddy1gringo.

[universalchiro]

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3
Good luck revealing the mind of God and showing that you actually have access to God's mind.

i
"All miscarriages are a result of sin": The wages of sin is death. Prior to the sin of Adam and Eve, there was no death. All Miscarriages are a death of life. Therefore, before sin, there was no miscarriages.

Miscarriages can be a result of 3 generations prior to of unrepentant sin. Exodus 20"20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. So the death of miscarriage can be either from immediate sin, parental sin, but all are subject and are under the bondage of the curse of sin from Adam and Eve. But through the pain of loss, Romans 8: 28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose."

Do Christians have access to the mind of God? The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ."

So yes, Believers in God, those that are saved, have the mind of Christ and can rightly discern the Scriptures given to us by God. And this is why I speak with authority of matters concerning the heart. Not because of my mind, but for that which the Holy Spirit reveals to all believers. The truths contained within the Bible.

The Bible is God's own testimony of Himself, what He has already done, what He will do and who He is. The Bible is also God's requirements for us. So that we have wisdom to be skilled at living and have life more abundantly and how to avoid the consequences of sin. But God came for all to believe, for all to see, for all He sent His Son to die an agonizing death on the cross to bear in full their cost of sin. God is here waiting for you.

I don't need to prove myself, for I'm not saying anything about me. I'm merely saying what God has declared. So to distinguish me from any heretic, still goes back to the scriptures. Even if the rankest sinner, quotes John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." The power of that verse can change lives. Sure the fruit of someone's life determines whether one listens, but God's word is a roaring Lion, it just to be unleashed and it will change lives. Not the cleverness of the one sharing the word of God.

Very well put!

About the mind of God part; I would add that the natural mind of man, is hostile naturally towards God.

This is not a judgment but a simple truth that Man is simply unable to come to grips with and to understand all by himself. This is inspired knowledge that can only come from the God who created us. Otherwise we simply would not be aware of this fact. Just like the fact that man is basically evil and not good.

But even if that is the natural state of man's mind, man can choose to rise above that mentality. God does the work but man makes the choice to allow God to do the work. There are things that God simply can not do. He can not make your choice for you.

The one thing that God can not create is "Free Will." Some people believe that "Free Will" is a gift that we are all given, But I believe that "Free Will" is not something that we have given to us, but rather something that is being created in us. The ability to either Choose to obey and believe in God or not.

Well at least you two circle-jerkers can continue with your cognitive bias, but you're really not doing anything more than slapping each other on the back. The fact is that you're being largely viewed as a joke, because you don't even try to use rationality. There IS some rationality to religion, even as viewed by an atheist like myself. But you two haven't even approached it. All you do is spout Bible verses in can effort to support the validity of the Bible and God, as if that proves anything. You could learn a lot from religious folks like tzor and daddy1gringo.

you asked if I was misguided & evil by inaccurately understanding my post, so I answered you. That sex is not evil. God created sex. Sex outside of marriage is a sin. But God created enjoyment of sex within marriage. You didn't like my answer. That's fine. I understand you have different views. Put yourself in my shoes: if you believed an all powerful creator instructed you to learn & obey His word & share with others that Jesus died on the cross & rose 3 days later, so they too will be blessed, well then you would quote scripture as well.

Believers in this thread have given ample evidence to show you the creator & have given sufficient evidence to show evolution is a flawed hypothesis, that you are without excuse.

[universalchiro]

The answer: All miscarriages are a result of sin.

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3:5

Woodruff, you are making a classic error in deduction. For you are an atheist, so your standard on what is evil is based on what standard? For since you incorrectly thought I thought all sex was evil, you are basing what is good and evil on the Bible without even knowing it. For a true atheist values cutting the head of lettuce off equally as cutting a human head. But you don't think those are the same. Why? Because you are using the Bible as a moral compass. For to a true atheist all sex may very well be evil. And who are you to say they are wrong & by what standard would you say they were misguided and evil? The Bible again?. You need to be more faithful to your atheistic views. You are confused implementing Bible standards as an atheist. You of all religions should least judge, for an atheist has arbitrary standards. Values based on nothing. For to you there is no God.

[waauw]

Waauw, I think your question is a fair question....
There is no data on miscarriages and being saved or not being saved. For we can't see someone's spirit whether they are saved and going to Heaven or have rejected God and going to Hell. Even the church has non-believers that play church well, but are not saved. We have strong indicators whether someone is going to Hell or Heaven by what comes out of their mouth. For all who confess Jesus as Lord and Savior will be saved and their actions will authenticate their converted heart. Conversely if someone says they are a Christian, yet their actions are showing otherwise, then they need to rethink their position with God. All mankind has sinned and all are under the curse of sin, which is death. All mankind are born into sin, for every human chromosome is from their parents and all trace their heritage to Adam and Eve, so from the passing of chromosomes from Adam and Eve, each offspring is passing corrupted sinful chromosomes. Even all of creature/nature is subjected to the curse of sin. Before the fall of mankind, there was no death. Nothing that had the breath of life in them ever died.

As far as I see on the internet there is indeed no data telling us whether there is a correlation between sin and miscarriage. But current day psychometrics can evaluate it. Sins can be identified because they are described in the Bible and they can be measured because contemporal psychologists can check people's records, can do inquiries and can make people subject to brain analysis during the inquiries(to do personality analysis if needed).

Qmiscarriages(number of people with miscarriages) = constant + x1*Qsin1 + x2*Qsin2 + ... + xi*Qsini + residuals

If all miscarriages are indeed the result of sins, a combination of all or some of these sins as independent variables should have an R-square of 100%(after applying a regression analysis ofcourse) as a result. There should also be correlations between miscarriages and sins(both untransformed).

Even when this deity doesn't punish all sins with a miscarriage, but also with other punishments, there should be correlations. There will just be some outliers and the graph might curve a bit. But at no time can the graph show white noise.

There is ample evidence that there is a strong correlation between "sin" and consequences of sin. Just look at the prison system. They are filled with people that have violated the laws that mankind has established based on the Bible. God is clear that He establishes governments and we are to be obedient to government. Daniel 4 clarifies God puts people in power, He establishes kingdoms.
Romans 13:1- Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

Romans 8:18-
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

What is this groaning, suffering, decay? Death (Fall), Burial (Winter), Resurrection (Spring) and Life (Summer). Even creation testifies of God's work on the cross.

The Bible correctly states the Law of Entropy before Physics discerned this law: That all things go towards decay.
Psalm 102: 26-In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,

Summary for waauw: There is ample evidence of the link of sin and the consequence of sin in society. Also the Bible clearly states there is a cause and effect. Be sinful and the consequence of those sins will come on you. Be holy and God will bless you so that you prosper (not speaking of finances, though that is plausible. I'm speaking more of peace, relationships, honor, contentment, joy, love, gentleness, kindness, self-control, meekness, etc). But no data is kept on who is saved and not saved, so there is no data on whether being saved results in less or more miscarriages. The Bible tells all are subject to the curse of sin, which is death, even creation/nature.

Here's the bottom line: God is sovereign over everything, nothing occurs outside of His overall plan. Even the dice, their every outcome is of God Proverbs 16:33. But God allows us to freely carry out our lives within His overall plan and the consequences of our choices/sin, He will pour out our own wickedness on ourselves. Jeremiah 14:16. So it's us storing up our own wrath that God will pour out on us, our actions store up either blessings to be poured out onto us, or our own wickedness store up wrath to be poured out onto us. And who does the pouring? God is the judge of all, He said, "I will pour out their own wickedness on them:Jeremiah 14:16... So when blessings come, new job, promotion, child, conflict resolution, etc. the credit goes to God. And when our wickedness is poured out onto us, God gets the credit for being a righteous judge and we bear the consequences of our sins. But God is a patient God, not wanting any to perish. He knocks on the door of your heart, daily. Patiently waiting for one to open the door and receive Him as Lord of their life and receive salvation, peace, joy, purpose, freedom from the guilt of sin.

I'm not gonna comment on this as I never stated that there is no connection between doing something bad and suffering consequences. I simply doubted "miscarriages" as a consequence in specific.

[crispybits]

You of all religions should least judge, for an atheist has arbitrary standards. Values based on nothing. For to you there is no God.

Firstly, atheism is not a rleigion it's a rejection of your supposed "divine knowledge"

Secondly, you must have missed this bit:

Also, if morality is defined as "if God does it or commands it then it is good" then that is just as arbitrary and screwed up as just about anything anyone else has ever come up with. At least atheists put thought into their moral behaviour and try and find rational reasons why X or Y is good or evil. If objective morality exists separate from God, then God is simply a conduit for a greater truth that we could potentially learn without his interference. And if morality is culturally flexible, then again there is no need to have any mention of God in moral teaching. So either:

a) God defines morality - morality is arbitrary and meaningless beyond the premise "might is right"
b) God teaches morality - morality is objective and can be discovered without God
c) God is irrelevant to morality - morality is subjective and God gets in the way of proper moral judgements

Call atheist morals reached through careful deliberation and debate and principles of reducing harm and maximising happiness and well-being arbitrary again, I double dare you, you hypocrite!

[waauw]

I'll repeat what I and others here have asked. Got any proof to support that?(and by that I don't mean bible verses)

Death and decay is the natural result of sin.

That's an interesting assertion. I would like to see you attempt to prove it; even biblically....

I answered from the Bible because the challenge was made if I could show that from the Bible.

My premise is that the original intention of creation was not a dying world but a living world. But that sin changed that.

No intention can be proven, only documented. "He said, She said" But the actions are what is visible. For the actions of God to be seen in full we must simply wait until the final judgment of all things for there is an end to all things and a final judgment to be feared by all creation.

That we live in a dying universe does not mean that it had or has to be this way. But even the laws of physics agree and testify that our universe and our world is in a constant state of decay and death. But this in no means is evidence that this world or this universe had or has to be this way.

actually scientists don't know whether the universe is dying. It all depends on the theory you believe in. Astrophysics is one of the sciences that is probably the least advanced.

[tzor]

Well, Biblically the the Tree of Life represents a world where nothing would die. The tree of life was denied to Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. It is spelled out very clearly in Genesis, and live for ever. It was intended that nothing should die...

No it is not.

Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! Now, what if he also reaches out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life, and eats of it and lives forever?

So clearly it was meant that only the heavenly host would live forever. As we see from the comment on chapter 1, verse 26

Let us make: in the ancient Near East, and sometimes in the Bible, God was imagined as presiding over an assembly of heavenly beings who deliberated and decided about matters on earth (1 Kgs 22:19–22; Is 6:8; Ps 29:1–2; 82; 89:6–7; Jb 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). This scene accounts for the plural form here and in Gn 11:7 (“Let us then go down…”). Israel’s God was always considered “Most High” over the heavenly beings.

It also clearly implies that he had previously not done so. Mind you the tree of live is only mentioned twice in the entire Torah and both are in this story. In the entire Bible it doesn't come again until the Revelation of John and then only near the end.

So the whole question of what would have happened had the man not eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is sort of moot because he did eat it.

[Woodruff]

you asked if I was misguided & evil by inaccurately understanding my post, so I answered you.

I am convinced that you're misguided. I don't actually think you're evil. I keep falling back to the old adage about "Don't ascribe to evil what can be explained by incompetence", but the more you post, the more I question that.

That sex is not evil. God created sex. Sex outside of marriage is a sin. But God created enjoyment of sex within marriage.

God also created enjoyment of sex outside of marriage. Unless you believe that sex somehow works differently outside of marriage than it does within marriage. Therefore, by your lack of logic, sex outside of marriage is no more of a sin than sex within marriage.

Put yourself in my shoes

Believe it or not, I actually try to do that. I do try to look at things from the other person's perspective. In fact, I have defended religion within these fora. I simply haven't yet seen much of anything in this entire thread that is worth defending. Well, that is, anything in this thread that has come from yourself, Viceroy or Lionz (and I'm starting to believe that both of you are, in fact, Lionz).

if you believed an all powerful creator instructed you to learn & obey His word & share with others that Jesus died on the cross & rose 3 days later, so they too will be blessed, well then you would quote scripture as well.

I understand that completely. However, I would suggest to you that THE VERY BEST way to witness to others is not in telling them what to believe but by showing them how YOU live and what an example YOU set, so that they can see what a great life can be lived within religion. The downfall of telling others what to believe is that you are going to have to give them a rationale for it...and you have demonstrated in this thread a decided lacking in ability to do that. Some can (the ones I mentioned to you that you could take a lesson from)...but you don't seem to have that skill. Truthfully, you come across as the type of religious person who "believes" because they think they should or because they're afraid not to, rather than someone who has come to their beliefs through introspection and self-revelation. I say that because you don't seem to have any actual reference for the rationality of your belief.

Believers in this thread have given ample evidence to show you the creator & have given sufficient evidence to show evolution is a flawed hypothesis, that you are without excuse.

No, the "believers" in this thread have stated why the Bible says that evolution is flawed and why the creator exists. Using the Bible as evidence of the Bible's own statements is ludicrously circular logic and completely lacks any ability to be valid evidence.

[Woodruff]

The answer: All miscarriages are a result of sin.

That can only be true if you hold to the misguided and frankly evil position that sex is always a sin. Are you that misguided and evil?

Has woodruff accurately stated God's view on sex? Does God think all sex is sinful?
Proverbs 5:15 (setting: King Solomon inspired with the words & wisdom of God: warns to avoid adultery, verses 1-14. Then says" drink water from your own cistern and fresh water from your own well should your springs be dispersed abroad, streams of water in the streets? Let them be yours alone and not for strangers with you. Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. As a loving hind and a graceful doe, let her breast satisfy you at all times. Be exhilerated always with her love. For why should you my son be exhilarating with an adulteress & embrace the bosom of a foreigner. For the ways of a man or before the eyes of the LORD and he watches all his path". This verse is a tiny fraction of the erotic yet veiled sexual passion in the Bible. Yes God tells us to drink in our own wife, this is literally her fluids and figurately her love. The fountain in this section is the Penis & the springs are our sperm. God is saying put your springs only in your wife, not other women. The book Song of Solomon is 8 chapters of veiled erotic poetry of a husband & his wife. So strong is the passion and eroticism that it will make a grown man blush.

Does a God that created the penis & the hormones for desire of a woman think all sex is sinful & evil? Does a God that instructs a husband to drink in his wife until intoxicated thinks sex is sinful and evil? Does a God that placed breast on a woman & instructs the husband to caress his wife like a tender doe, think sex is evil? Does a God that creates mankind naked & says be fruitful & multiply, think sex is evil? Does a God that has an entire book dedicated to the veiled erotic passion of honeymoon conception think sex is evil?

No.

God created sex. God created the enjoyment of sex. But sex outside of marriage is self love, is putting selfish desire before God's command of marriage and this is improper love,. Equal to greed, immorality, love of self which equals idolatry. Colossians 3:5

Woodruff, you are making a classic error in deduction.

Says the guy using circular logic as his complete standard of logic.

For you are an atheist, so your standard on what is evil is based on what standard?

Is this some idiotic "if you don't have religion, you can't be moral" argument? Because if it is, you may as well stop before I lose even more respect for your positions.

For since you incorrectly thought I thought all sex was evil

I'm only going by your own statements. You still haven't refuted them, to be quite honest.

you are basing what is good and evil on the Bible without even knowing it.

Oh, this is a glorious statement. Got a hint for you, son...I know the Bible AT LEAST AS WELL as you do. I feel very confident in saying that, even without knowing you very well. I used to be quite a religious individual, but I was religious for the wrong reasons (like you, I was religious because I was raised that way so thought I needed to be, and I was a little afraid not to be)...and then I started thinking for myself, and saw all of the flaws. So for you to suggest that I no little of the Bible would be a gross error on your part. Certainly not your first, and I'm confident not your last...but it is a big one.

For a true atheist values cutting the head of lettuce off equally as cutting a human head.

A thoroughly ignorant statement.

But you don't think those are the same. Why? Because you are using the Bible as a moral compass.

I do not use the Bible as a moral compass. I do think the Bible has some good things to say regarding SOME morals, but I think it's completely off-base as far as others. My moral compass is my own conscience, and my ability to gather information regarding situations.

For to a true atheist all sex may very well be evil.

How does that even make basic sense?

The Bible again?. You need to be more faithful to your atheistic views. You are confused implementing Bible standards as an atheist. You of all religions should least judge, for an atheist has arbitrary standards. Values based on nothing. For to you there is no God.

Atheists do NOT have "arbitrary standards". I think I have judged you quite accurately for the repulsive individual that you are. I am truly sorry for the good Christians in the world who are smeared by the reputation gained by false Christians like you.

[Viceroy63]

Well, Biblically the the Tree of Life represents a world where nothing would die. The tree of life was denied to Adam and Eve after they ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. It is spelled out very clearly in Genesis, and live for ever. It was intended that nothing should die...

No it is not.

Then the LORD God said: See! The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! Now, what if he also reaches out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life, and eats of it and lives forever?

So clearly it was meant that only the heavenly host would live forever. As we see from the comment on chapter 1, verse 26

Let us make: in the ancient Near East, and sometimes in the Bible, God was imagined as presiding over an assembly of heavenly beings who deliberated and decided about matters on earth (1 Kgs 22:19–22; Is 6:8; Ps 29:1–2; 82; 89:6–7; Jb 1:6; 2:1; 38:7). This scene accounts for the plural form here and in Gn 11:7 (“Let us then go down…”). Israel’s God was always considered “Most High” over the heavenly beings.

It also clearly implies that he had previously not done so. Mind you the tree of live is only mentioned twice in the entire Torah and both are in this story. In the entire Bible it doesn't come again until the Revelation of John and then only near the end.

So the whole question of what would have happened had the man not eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is sort of moot because he did eat it.

When God said, "Let us make man..." he is not talking to other heavenly beings but to the other God being with him. The one through whom all of creation was made through. Here one God being capable of a creative act is talking to another God being capable of a creative act and so the word, "Us" fits perfectly into the context. If God was talking to other heavenly beings unable to create, then God would have said, Now, "I" shall create man in "My" image...

So I don't see how you come to that conclusion that this is referring to heavenly beings since spirit does not die. Only man was made of the earth in need of spirit substance to be completed. Man of the ground returns to the ground unless a spirit substance, if we may call it that, Actually it would be more like a spiritual application to Man's genetic programming (DNA) if you will, but it is clear that the text is referring to Man who has just finished eating the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil and not some spirit being(s) will now surely die because they had disobeyed. But if that Tree of life is left there then the man could eat of it and live forever then with a spiritual dimension added to his physical make up.

I would like to interject a thought here and state that when God said to Adam and Eve that on the day that you "Eat of that Fruit, you shall surely die..." What God really meant or intended was, that on the day that you eat of that Fruit, "I" shall surely 'KILL' you. Not that the Forbidden Fruit would kill because the fruit itself was not a fruit of death but of knowledge. So that the only one who would die would be whom ever God kills on that day.

On that day however we see the first act of mercy towards man and an act of killing the first creature that did not deserve to die. How else would God bring animal skins to both Adam and even unless God first killed those animals? So here God sets up the whole system of atoning blood where in order for the guilty to live some innocent had to die. And who was more innocent and undeserving of death than the Creator Himself made in the flesh and killed on the cross for the sins of humanity? The very one whom God the Father said, "Let us make man..."

God intended to kill Adam and Eve on the very day that they disobeyed and not that the forbidden fruit should kill them. But instead God killed a substitute in the place of Adam and Eve so that Adam and Eve could at least live out the rest of their normal lives. But in no way live forever.

By this time any spirit Being that disobeyed God previously, before the recreation of the earth, was already cast down to the earth and there already. So that could not be referring to the disobedience of any fallen spirits but to man himself who is yet capable of dying. Again, Spirit does not die. While Spirit can be destroyed in the lake of fire as can all things, spirit can not of itself or at the instance of another spirit be made to die. But man made of earth, still needing the Spiritual application, can.

And on the part of "One of Us" the Bible clearly defines what is meant by this phrase. "To Know Good And Evil" and not that man is now somehow immortal spirit life. But simply that as God can choose Good and Evil because God knows this, so now can man.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
-Genesis 3:22

[Woodruff]

I believe I have found the ministry leading Viceroy and universalchiro along:


http://g-r-i.org/downloads/MARCH_NEWSLETTER_2012.pdf

[TA1LGUNN3R]

If death and aging result from sin, why does plant life or bacteria also age and die? Do they also live in sin?

-TG

[jonesthecurl]

@Woody: Lionz and Viceroy are not the same person unless one person is going to ludicrous efforts to troll. I have tried to get an honest debate amongst the "God did it" people to see to what extent they DO agree with each other. Very little if I read correctly, most especially those two. Unfortunately, the goddists didn't respond much, and the no-godders just jumped in despite my explicit request not to, and invalidated the entire thread.Some even thought I was a creationist myself as far as I could see, just because I tried to start the debate off. As RAH once said "God preserve me from my friends".
I don't know about chiro. He could be a multi, but probably not.

[Woodruff]

@Woody: Lionz and Viceroy are not the same person unless one person is going to ludicrous efforts to troll. I have tried to get an honest debate amongst the "God did it" people to see to what extent they DO agree with each other. Very little if I read correctly, most especially those two. Unfortunately, the goddists didn't respond much, and the no-godders just jumped in despite my explicit request not to, and invalidated the entire thread.Some even thought I was a creationist myself as far as I could see, just because I tried to start the debate off. As RAH once said "God preserve me from my friends".
I don't know about chiro. He could be a multi, but probably not.

Interesting. I just theorized it because all three seem to have the same...hmmm...lack of awareness of the specific words that others are using in attempting to communicate with them.

[chang50]

@Woody: Lionz and Viceroy are not the same person unless one person is going to ludicrous efforts to troll. I have tried to get an honest debate amongst the "God did it" people to see to what extent they DO agree with each other. Very little if I read correctly, most especially those two. Unfortunately, the goddists didn't respond much, and the no-godders just jumped in despite my explicit request not to, and invalidated the entire thread.Some even thought I was a creationist myself as far as I could see, just because I tried to start the debate off. As RAH once said "God preserve me from my friends".
I don't know about chiro. He could be a multi, but probably not.

Interesting. I just theorized it because all three seem to have the same...hmmm...lack of awareness of the specific words that others are using in attempting to communicate with them.

Understandably,one thing they do share is a sense of specialness,a deep rooted stupid vanity that allows them to imagine they have access to knowledge and understanding that is beyond lesser mortals like us whilst simultaneously professing humility.A vomit-inducing combination of fatuousness and mock humilty..

[Woodruff]

Understandably,one thing they do share is a sense of specialness,a deep rooted stupid vanity that allows them to imagine they have access to knowledge and understanding that is beyond lesser mortals like us whilst simultaneously professing humility.A vomit-inducing combination of fatuousness and mock humilty..

Yes...humility is definitely not something they strike me as having at all. And I would know...I'm pretty lacking in humility myself! <grin>

[BigBallinStalin]

How many circles must a believer run?

[tzor]

That sex is not evil. God created sex. Sex outside of marriage is a sin. But God created enjoyment of sex within marriage.

God also created enjoyment of sex outside of marriage. Unless you believe that sex somehow works differently outside of marriage than it does within marriage. Therefore, by your lack of logic, sex outside of marriage is no more of a sin than sex within marriage.

God also created the enjoyment of eating food. Yet gluttony is considered a sin. In addition the whole Roman concept of eating until you are full and then throwing up and eating more is even more sinful.

Now you might consider a response of "food" to a question of "sex" odd. But in the nomadic tribes, food and means had at least as much significance as that of sex. (But in opposite social directions because sex was the inward bond between husband and wive while food is the outward bond between a person and the community.)

So enjoyment is not, in and of itself, enough. It is the purpose of something that is important and the openness to that purpose. In addition the higher purpose must also be considered. Abusing the later two for the former is, generally, a sin, but it is a sin because it is an abuse of the later two, not because of the former.

[universalchiro]

I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

One of the reasons people don't read the Bible is they don't believe that it is from God, from an all powerful being that created everything. Most think that the Bible is only from mankind, with some good stories. But no weightier than Harry Potter. And therefore It makes perfect sense to not believe in a god, that is made up by mankind. And if the Bible isn't reliable, then that is strong evidence that the Bible is just a good book. For what God would say, My written word is the standard by which you will be judged, and then allow His written word to be corrupted with errors and lose it's meaning? Right!

This bring me to the topic of reliability of the Bible, is it or isn't it reliable?

There are around 100,000+ copied manuscripts of the original writings. So how do we know that the copied manuscripts are accurate to the originals and how do we know the Bible versions we have today are close or accurate or spot on with original manuscripts. How do we know that translations over the millenniums haven't altered the meaning?

An argument against the reliability of the Bible was that the oldest known manuscript, only dated back to around 1,000 AD. Which means too much time had transpired from the original manuscript to the oldest known manuscript. And that large time gap, has allowed errors to destroy the reliability of the Bible. Well it's a fair argument to say. For no one can maintain the reliability of texts that has been translated and copied so many times and there is about 1,500 year span between original writing and oldest known copy of that original writing. So how do we know that the gap of time from original writings of the Old testament (with books dating back between 400 BC to 1,400BC) to the oldest known manuscript, hasn't allowed unintentional human error to change the meaning? or that the gap in time from original manuscript to oldest known copy, hasn't allowed intentional human desires to purposefully changed the meaning?

These are fair questions to bring to the authenticity of the Bible. And these questions should be brought to test the authenticity.

Then there was a discovery that shed light on this topic. In the middle of the 20th century, the dead sea scrolls were found. What are the dead sea scrolls? They are a collection of copied manuscripts that date back in time. Some of the copied manuscripts are as old as 300BC to 50AD. They are named because of the location they were found. What is the significance of this? The Dead Sea Scrolls show the manuscripts we have today have kept their integrity for a 1,000+/- years and are spot on with the meaning and words of the prior oldest known copies.

But there still is an argument that with 100,000+ copies of the original manuscripts and no original manuscripts around, how do we know the reliability? After all, the scribes could have misspelled a word, which could change the meaning, or the scribes could have missed a word, or when two sequential sentences end with the same word, a scribe could of skipped an entire line. When a scribe is turning the page, the page could of stuck together and he could have missed an entire page. A scribe could also have deleted doctrine purposefully he didn't agree with. Or a scribe could have added doctrine that he thought should be there. Of the list of possible human error outcomes, we find that misspelled words and missed words are the two most frequent errors when copying. And that's what the manuscripts demonstrate, that the 2 most common errors (95% of the errors) are missing/adding a letter or missing/adding a word. With so many copies of the original manuscripts, what seems as a liability, turns out to be the reliability. How so?

When one manuscript had a missing or added letter, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a missing or added word, the others did not.
[the 2 above comprised 95% of the errors]
When one manuscript had a sentence missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a paragraph missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a page missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had added words/sentences/paragraphs, the others did not.
When one manuscript had deleted words/sentences/paragraphs, the others did not.

With so many manuscripts, what seems as a liability, turns out to prove the reliability. 99.9% of the errors associated with copying from the original manuscripts were able to cross reference with other manuscripts to determine what was correct. Of the 0.1% that couldn't be resolved, they were non-doctrinal text. So we have assurance and confidence that the Bible versions we have today, are reliable, trustworthy and accurate copies of the original manuscripts.

This is a miracle!

[Woodruff]

I am looking for evidence of God. If any of you have any...please post it here.

One of the reasons people don't read the Bible is they don't believe that it is from God, from an all powerful being that created everything. Most think that the Bible is only from mankind, with some good stories. But no weightier than Harry Potter. And therefore It makes perfect sense to not believe in a god, that is made up by mankind. And if the Bible isn't reliable, then that is strong evidence that the Bible is just a good book. For what God would say, My written word is the standard by which you will be judged, and then allow His written word to be corrupted with errors and lose it's meaning? Right!

This bring me to the topic of reliability of the Bible, is it or isn't it reliable?

There are around 100,000+ copied manuscripts of the original writings. So how do we know that the copied manuscripts are accurate to the originals and how do we know the Bible versions we have today are close or accurate or spot on with original manuscripts. How do we know that translations over the millenniums haven't altered the meaning?

An argument against the reliability of the Bible was that the oldest known manuscript, only dated back to around 1,000 AD. Which means too much time had transpired from the original manuscript to the oldest known manuscript. And that large time gap, has allowed errors to destroy the reliability of the Bible. Well it's a fair argument to say. For no one can maintain the reliability of texts that has been translated and copied so many times and there is about 1,500 year span between original writing and oldest known copy of that original writing. So how do we know that the gap of time from original writings of the Old testament (with books dating back between 400 BC to 1,400BC) to the oldest known manuscript, hasn't allowed unintentional human error to change the meaning? or that the gap in time from original manuscript to oldest known copy, hasn't allowed intentional human desires to purposefully changed the meaning?

These are fair questions to bring to the authenticity of the Bible. And these questions should be brought to test the authenticity.

Then there was a discovery that shed light on this topic. In the middle of the 20th century, the dead sea scrolls were found. What are the dead sea scrolls? They are a collection of copied manuscripts that date back in time. Some of the copied manuscripts are as old as 300BC to 50AD. They are named because of the location they were found. What is the significance of this? The Dead Sea Scrolls show the manuscripts we have today have kept their integrity for a 1,000+/- years and are spot on with the meaning and words of the prior oldest known copies.

But there still is an argument that with 100,000+ copies of the original manuscripts and no original manuscripts around, how do we know the reliability? After all, the scribes could have misspelled a word, which could change the meaning, or the scribes could have missed a word, or when two sequential sentences end with the same word, a scribe could of skipped an entire line. When a scribe is turning the page, the page could of stuck together and he could have missed an entire page. A scribe could also have deleted doctrine purposefully he didn't agree with. Or a scribe could have added doctrine that he thought should be there. Of the list of possible human error outcomes, we find that misspelled words and missed words are the two most frequent errors when copying. And that's what the manuscripts demonstrate, that the 2 most common errors (95% of the errors) are missing/adding a letter or missing/adding a word. With so many copies of the original manuscripts, what seems as a liability, turns out to be the reliability. How so?

When one manuscript had a missing or added letter, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a missing or added word, the others did not.
[the 2 above comprised 95% of the errors]
When one manuscript had a sentence missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a paragraph missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had a page missing, the others did not.
When one manuscript had added words/sentences/paragraphs, the others did not.
When one manuscript had deleted words/sentences/paragraphs, the others did not.

With so many manuscripts, what seems as a liability, turns out to prove the reliability. 99.9% of the errors associated with copying from the original manuscripts were able to cross reference with other manuscripts to determine what was correct. Of the 0.1% that couldn't be resolved, they were non-doctrinal text. So we have assurance and confidence that the Bible versions we have today, are reliable, trustworthy and accurate copies of the original manuscripts.

This is a miracle!

1. Are you aware of how many relevant writings have been intentionally kept from being included in the Bible?

2. If you consider "99.9% reliability" to be a miracle, you really are a fool.

3. None of what you posted verified the reliability of the Bible as coming from God.