Occupy Wall Street: Support or Oppose? (OWS vs. Nativity)

[jimboston]

If the banks failed, new ones would have taken their places, with better business plans.

1) you clearly have no idea about the banking and finance system.

2) you are right that if some of these "banks" failed they would be replaced with new ones.... 20 years from now after we finally recovered from the depression that was averted.

3) people keep talking about crooks... And keep demanding prosecutions... and they do this without realizing that there were no laws broken.

( not talking about the Madoff or Enron things...)

But rather about the primary failures... Which were primarily caused by the gov't forcing banks to take bad loans and also keep interest so low for too long.

[jimboston]

You do realise there is 0% chance of socialism ever being implemented in the US, right?

Really?

a)Then please tell me why there is a Universal Healthcare law... b)And please explain how approximately 60% of my money goes to taxes.
(all forms of taxation)

a) requiring people to have health insurance isn't socialism. it's just not.
b) do you know what your taxes are spent on? most of it isn't stuff socialists like.

a) providing gov't funded healthcare is socialism.
b) when more than half of my income goes to taxes I call it socialism. Reduce it to 30% and then we can debate how to spend that 30%. Don't wanna debate how it is spent now.... I just want it reduced.

[Phatscotty]

If the banks failed, new ones would have taken their places, with better business plans.

1) you clearly have no idea about the banking and finance system.

2) you are right that if some of these "banks" failed they would be replaced with new ones.... 20 years from now after we finally recovered from the depression that was averted.

3) people keep talking about crooks... And keep demanding prosecutions... and they do this without realizing that there were no laws broken.

( not talking about the Madoff or Enron things...)

But rather about the primary failures... Which were primarily caused by the gov't forcing banks to take bad loans and also keep interest so low for too long.

whoa whoa whoa.
1) I know a lot about the banks and their practices, but I'm not going to lead into the subject using level 5 words, but we might make it that far.

2) About that bailout, remember only half of the banks were in trouble. The other half needed to go along with it otherwise the market would find out which one had the most problems and blow them out of the water. Not only would new banks fill in the spots, but banks that weren't in trouble (obviously better business dealings) would have grown and we would be better off, making a nice dent in your 20 year prediction.

3) I'm not calling for anyone to be arrested and I got the whole law side of it, and if anyone were to be arrested IMO it should be Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and a few others. In fact I do think Dodd should be arrested, but he retired instead so we are back to the drawing board as far as people getting away with shit. I focus more of that on the politicians. The banks used bad judgement of course, but that's corruption, and people can be put in jail for that. (trafficant etc)

[Phatscotty]

Considering the trillions that banks worldwide have received so far, the last is actually only fair. If banks, hedge funds and Bob knows what else don't have to take responsibility, why should anyone else?

I didn't see this response in any of your posts when we had the bank bailouts. If banks and other financial institutions may risky investments such that the institutions fail, they should be allowed to fail. Forgiving indebtedness is not the same as allowing banks to fail. If the people are asking for a "lender bailout" then I can sort of see their point, although I'd much prefer not to have had the original bailouts.

YES! I mean shit TGD beat me to it, but I have been waiting to use the "Where were you guys when the Tea Party was formed largely based on anti-bailout sentiments? I didn't see or hear you!"

Ya know, the whole "why is the Tea Party all of a sudden, out of nowhere, all mad about debt and spending? Where were they(I will always answer "we were right fucking there!) when Bush was spending and running deficits?"... which honest to god left many in the media concluding that meant is was "straight up racism"

[Symmetry]

You do realise there is 0% chance of socialism ever being implemented in the US, right?

Really?

a)Then please tell me why there is a Universal Healthcare law... b)And please explain how approximately 60% of my money goes to taxes.
(all forms of taxation)

a) requiring people to have health insurance isn't socialism. it's just not.
b) do you know what your taxes are spent on? most of it isn't stuff socialists like.

a) providing gov't funded healthcare is socialism.
b) when more than half of my income goes to taxes I call it socialism. Reduce it to 30% and then we can debate how to spend that 30%. Don't wanna debate how it is spent now.... I just want it reduced.

Empty, meaningless drivel. The US government provides healthcare for US troops, and many other groups. This would be, to you Socialism. Which you seem to oppose.

Do you support a Socialist approach to the military, but not to the general public?

Or do you simply tack on the word "Socialist" to any policy you don't approve of like an obedient conservative, regardless of meaning?

[saxitoxin]

Empty, meaningless drivel. The US government provides healthcare for US troops, and many other groups. This would be, to you Socialism. Which you seem to oppose.

As a proponent of socialism, I have to note that paying an employee - via either goods or services - is not socialism. The state - acting in its corporate personality - engages in contractual arrangements with individuals and organizational entities.

Socialism does not involve the transfer of wealth via employment contract.

That said, I also disagree with Scott, Obama's healthcare law was not socialism, it was crony capitalism - where a private corporation bribes a government official to use police power to kneecap its competition. In this case, United Healthcare Inc. paid Obama several million dollars in "contributions" and Obama, dutifully, enacted a law that required people to purchase United Healthcare's products.

[Phatscotty]

Empty, meaningless drivel. The US government provides healthcare for US troops, and many other groups. This would be, to you Socialism. Which you seem to oppose.

As a proponent of socialism, I have to note that paying an employee - via either goods or services - is not socialism. The state - acting in its corporate personality - engages in contractual arrangements with individuals and organizational entities.

Socialism does not involve the transfer of wealth via employment contract.

That said, I also disagree with Scott, Obama's healthcare law was not socialism, it was crony capitalism - where a private corporation bribes a government official to use police power to kneecap its competition. In this case, United Healthcare Inc. paid Obama several million dollars in "contributions" and Obama, dutifully, enacted a law that required people to purchase United Healthcare's products.

No, wait now, I recognize the crony capitalism, absolutely. The socialism hits in a new deduction category in our pay checks and makes us our brothers keeper. I would also agree to the term "state capitalism" if I felt any fuzzier about the situation. You gotta grant that Socialism is a very loose term, and the American version of the word applies a lot when America's freedoms are a stake, specifically when the state is taking over distribution.

[Nobunaga]

You do realise there is 0% chance of socialism ever being implemented in the US, right?

Really?

a)Then please tell me why there is a Universal Healthcare law... b)And please explain how approximately 60% of my money goes to taxes.
(all forms of taxation)

a) requiring people to have health insurance isn't socialism. it's just not.
b) do you know what your taxes are spent on? most of it isn't stuff socialists like.

a) providing gov't funded healthcare is socialism.
b) when more than half of my income goes to taxes I call it socialism. Reduce it to 30% and then we can debate how to spend that 30%. Don't wanna debate how it is spent now.... I just want it reduced.

Empty, meaningless drivel. The US government provides healthcare for US troops, and many other groups. This would be, to you Socialism. Which you seem to oppose.

Do you support a Socialist approach to the military, but not to the general public?

Or do you simply tack on the word "Socialist" to any policy you don't approve of like an obedient conservative, regardless of meaning?

... You're slipping.

... Soldiers are employed by the US government. Their employer funds their health care. I have issues with employer-based health care but that's beside the point. Your comparison is laughable, and you certainly should know it.

... Interesting turn there, "Do you support a Socialist approach to the military, but not to the general public?". The US military does not follow the, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" philosophy which is the very foundation of socialism. So again, .... you're either drunk or just really having an off day.

...

[Phatscotty]

Some businesses have already closed shop because of this. People aren't going to visit the shop that makes the coffee they like when outside the shop smells like urine and vomit and 2 guys are trying to have sex under a tarp while tripping on acid.

While I believe I agree with your sentiments....

A couple closed coffee shops is not the same as shutting down Wall Street and turning the banking system on it's head.

The more "hippees" that attend these rallies the better... As they will (hopefully) soon be discredited.

It is ridiculous that they don't need permits... But when the Tea Party Express wants to hold a rally they need permits and city permission. Wonder why that is?

Jolly well, I should have stated my point there though. The point was they are actually causing people to lose their jobs (the coffee shop employees).

[Symmetry]

... You're slipping.

... Soldiers are employed by the US government. Their employer funds their health care. I have issues with employer-based health care but that's beside the point. Your comparison is laughable, and you certainly should know it.

... Interesting turn there, "Do you support a Socialist approach to the military, but not to the general public?". The US military does not follow the, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" philosophy which is the very foundation of socialism. So again, .... you're either drunk or just really having an off day.

...

Yeah, i was wrong with that one, and I was an ass in the way I was wrong. Saxi pointed the problem out too, but I was an ass towards you, and I apologise.

Seeing no good reason for why I didn't think that one through beyond arrogance, I will blame Lupus.

[jgordon1111]

Holy shit I am going to agree with scotty on something, to many of the ceo's and president's of bank's and big corporations got their asses saved by the gov't bailing them out. you can only throw good money after bad for so long and then it eventually crashes anyway because the practises of these company exec's dont change. Hundred's of thousands of people have lost their job's and money because of these people,the gov't did not bail them out. First major bailout the big scandal was these financial institution's and corporations used a large portion of the bailout's to give themselves their yearly bonuses. The best possible solution is at this point remove the ceo's and upper management from their position's, second do the same to both political parties once their current terms are up,start with a clean political and financial slate. Let it be known if you have ever held a state or federal political position before you will not get voted into office no matter how much money or what promises you make. The average citizen has finally woke up and getting tired of being lied to.Hell a brand new set of ceo's and politician's cant screw it up worse than the so called professional's have. We might even get lucky and get honest people in for a brand new change of things. now that would be a novel idea honest people in charge

[Phatscotty]

Holy shit I am going to agree with scotty on something, to many of the ceo's and president's of bank's and big corporations got their asses saved by the gov't bailing them out. you can only throw good money after bad for so long and then it eventually crashes anyway because the practises of these company exec's dont change. Hundred's of thousands of people have lost their job's and money because of these people,the gov't did not bail them out. First major bailout the big scandal was these financial institution's and corporations used a large portion of the bailout's to give themselves their yearly bonuses. The best possible solution is at this point remove the ceo's and upper management from their position's, second do the same to both political parties once their current terms are up,start with a clean political and financial slate. Let it be known if you have ever held a state or federal political position before you will not get voted into office no matter how much money or what promises you make. The average citizen has finally woke up and getting tired of being lied to.Hell a brand new set of ceo's and politician's cant screw it up worse than the so called professional's have. We might even get lucky and get honest people in for a brand new change of things. now that would be a novel idea honest people in charge

Yeah, just one thing there JG. We already have a head start. It's not that we won a bunch of elections against democrats, it's that we threw the bums out of our own party in 2010. You should give us a little credit for that despite all the things you might have heard. The dust has begun to settle on all that and now in the context of Occupy I think the Democrat party has a chance to be transformed and maybe just maybe we will have a chance to sew up a lot of shit and realize that we need to come together on the fiscal issues. That is way easier than social issues and hopefully we can continue to disagree with respect there and move to a more free system where states choose, and we choose states.

[Army of GOD]

American Nazi Party Endorses Occupy Wall Street
http://whitehonor.com/white-power/the-o ... -movement/

Many racialists are unsure about, and even against, these Occupy Wall Street protests all around the country. It has been pointed out to me that many protesters are non-white and/or “communists.” Well my answer to that is: “WHO CARES?!” They are against the same evil, corrupted, degenerate capitalist elitists that WE are against! Instead of screaming, “6 million more!” The pro-white movementites should be JOINING this Occupy movement and supporting it!

Seriously people, just WHO is our enemy? The unemployed left-wing 25-year-old holding up a sign, OR the judeo-capitalist banksters who swindled the American taxpayers out of A TRILLION dollars in the “bailout” scam AND continue to oppress the White Working Class?!? Even Adolf Hitler’s NSDAP had to vote with open communists on some issues to achieve their goals. WE need to utilize and support every movement of dissent against this evil American empire, regardless of which end of the political spectrum it originates from.

Just wondering how an American Nazi endorsement would have played during the Tea Party. Also, why will a lot of people who would have used this as political fodder to smear a movement will probably just blow it off when it comes to their side of things at OWS.

I think the bigger story is that you're on a website called "whitehonor.com"

[Phatscotty]

American Nazi Party Endorses Occupy Wall Street
http://whitehonor.com/white-power/the-o ... -movement/

Many racialists are unsure about, and even against, these Occupy Wall Street protests all around the country. It has been pointed out to me that many protesters are non-white and/or “communists.” Well my answer to that is: “WHO CARES?!” They are against the same evil, corrupted, degenerate capitalist elitists that WE are against! Instead of screaming, “6 million more!” The pro-white movementites should be JOINING this Occupy movement and supporting it!

Seriously people, just WHO is our enemy? The unemployed left-wing 25-year-old holding up a sign, OR the judeo-capitalist banksters who swindled the American taxpayers out of A TRILLION dollars in the “bailout” scam AND continue to oppress the White Working Class?!? Even Adolf Hitler’s NSDAP had to vote with open communists on some issues to achieve their goals. WE need to utilize and support every movement of dissent against this evil American empire, regardless of which end of the political spectrum it originates from.

Just wondering how an American Nazi endorsement would have played during the Tea Party. Also, why will a lot of people who would have used this as political fodder to smear a movement will probably just blow it off when it comes to their side of things at OWS.

I think the bigger story is that you're on a website called "whitehonor.com"

LOL I know right? I totally thought about that when I posted it, but these days with so much Nazi calling and Hitler references, I thought it proper to post the source full frontal style. I visited the website to make sure the endorsement was not BS, but I originally heard about the endorsement on a website that is not named whitehonor.com

[Phatscotty]

George Carlin on Bankers.

[jimboston]

Empty, meaningless drivel. The US government provides healthcare for US troops, and many other groups. This would be, to you Socialism. Which you seem to oppose.

Do you support a Socialist approach to the military, but not to the general public?

Or do you simply tack on the word "Socialist" to any policy you don't approve of like an obedient conservative, regardless of meaning?

You are wrong and you know it... Your comparisons are ridiculous.

Free healthcare is socialism.

Healthcare provided as part of a compensation package for services rendered is not.

We both know it... Stop being so anti military.

[jimboston]

whoa whoa whoa.
1) I know a lot about the banks and their practices, but I'm not going to lead into the subject using level 5 words, but we might make it that far.

2) About that bailout, remember only half of the banks were in trouble. The other half needed to go along with it otherwise the market would find out which one had the most problems and blow them out of the water. Not only would new banks fill in the spots, but banks that weren't in trouble (obviously better business dealings) would have grown and we would be better off, making a nice dent in your 20 year prediction.

3) I'm not calling for anyone to be arrested and I got the whole law side of it, and if anyone were to be arrested IMO it should be Barney Frank and Chris Dodd and a few others. In fact I do think Dodd should be arrested, but he retired instead so we are back to the drawing
board as far as people getting away with shit. I focus more of that on the politicians. The banks used bad judgement of course, but that's corruption, and people can be put in jail for
that. (trafficant etc)

1 and 2) We may be agreeing here more than we realize.... Not sure. Are you saying that the bailouts prevented nothing... Or do u think they did lessen the recession?

3) I would love to see Frank and Todd in jail too! Those people however are Not the people these Occupy Wall Street types think should go to jail. They think the gov't should arrest and prosecute bankers.... But they have no idea why. Corruption and Bad Judgement are Not the same.

[BigBallinStalin]

It smells like baby poo ITT.

[Phatscotty]

It's unfortunate that the message coming out of a lot of this has been "we are useful idiots", and the organizer of it all basically said as much way back in late March 2011. "we need to provide the crisis for the president to use in order to get the kind of change we all know we need! I hope there aren't any cops in the room!"
Chorus" "HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA"

We are letting this crisis go to waste!

Remember Obama's DOJ gave that guy in Tennessee 10-15 years in prison for coining his own Ron Paul dollars, and prosecuted him for "economic terrorism" and "specifically trying to undermine the economy". Oh but occupy Wall Street, even though it meets many requirements under the "economic terrorism" code, the administration is all "this is great! this is democracy! They are just using free speech!" even though there are now over 1,000 arrests.

This whole thing is so fishy, I'm just gonna stick with calling them useful idiots, because if they don't have a message by now, that means they are going to latch onto a message from whoever says they have the final solution.

FYI my votes are "they have a point" and "UR doing it wrong"

[saxitoxin]

Emails of the OWS "Demands Committee" - which is the self-appointed group that sits behind the democratic face that the "General Assembly" presents (the General Assembly makes decisions about who is manning the food tent or how they're organizing the phone tree, while the Demands Committee provides the important direction) - have been leaked and posted online. In it they discuss how progress is coming on the new constitution for the United States they are drafting.

However, while only some names are contained in the emails it seems the members of the Demands Committee are veteran anti-Zionist activists who have been involved in organizing tent protests regularly over the last decades supporting the disestablishment of the State of Israel so I'm inclined to give them benefit of the doubt on that front.

A minority of members express disagreement, saying the new constitution for the United States should not be drafted in secret by a group that was only first intended to be a logistical body.

http://owsmail.dc406.com/OWSMailList_3134.html

http://owsmail.dc406.com/

The text of the new U.S. constitution has yet to be presented publicly, or in the leaked emails.

[Army of GOD]

Emails of the OWS "Demands Committee" - which is the self-appointed group that sits behind the democratic face that the "General Assembly" presents (the General Assembly makes decisions about who is manning the food tent or how they're organizing the phone tree, while the Demands Committee provides the important direction) - have been leaked and posted online. In it they discuss how progress is coming on the new constitution for the United States they are drafting.

However, do know members of the Demands Committee are veteran anti-Zionist activists who have been involved in organizing anti-Israeli tent protests regularly over the last decades so I'm inclined to give them benefit of the doubt on that front.

A minority of members express disagreement, saying the new constitution for the United States should not be drafted in secret by a group that was only first intended to be a logistical body.

http://owsmail.dc406.com/OWSMailList_3134.html

http://owsmail.dc406.com/

The text of the new U.S. constitution has yet to be presented publicly, or in the leaked emails.

Oh lawdy, a self-appointed demands committee? This is exactly what OWS stands for, amirite

[saxitoxin]

They do note, however, that the Demands Committee and the Constitution Drafting Committee - necessarily - cannot be open to the public or the media because it will impede their freedom of frank discussion in deciding how the new U.S. government will be organized and who will be the leaders.

Don't have reporters; they will slant coverage to suit their publication's agenda.

http://owsmail.dc406.com/OWSMailList_3134.html

I do have to empathize somewhat with this view. This is analogous to what Marx described as the necessary Dictatorship of the Proletariat, where the englightened Vanguard represents the will of the masses who may not have the intellectual savvy to express it, but - at a visceral level - know what they want.

I now declare ol' Saxi has gone from Anti-OWS to Cautiously Neutral.

[BigBallinStalin]

DDR scored a -9 on the Polity IV Index.

Iran has roughly -3 today.

Canada, US, Germany, Norway, UK, Denmark got +10.

France has +9.

[Mageplunka69]

I look at the whole bailout mess in this way, agree or disagree, im curious. When they bailed out the banks with their multi billion bailout, they said that would have amounted to about 300-400 thousand dollars for each American. Now, if all of us would have received even 200K, we could do as us Americans have always done, spend, spend spend, even the drug dealers who actually paid taxes on their cover businesses would spend....then money would have been flowing like crazy, this would have put the bank crooks out of business, and maybe honest banks would have opened, ones that loan money to people who could actually afford them,and the government would have made their money back in all the taxes they would have raped us for....but NO, they help their friends and fund more crooked businesses to make things like solar panels ♥.
I support a total over throw of the US government by the people.....our fore fathers are probably rolling their in their graves

[PLAYER57832]

I look at the whole bailout mess in this way, agree or disagree, im curious. When they bailed out the banks with their multi billion bailout, they said that would have amounted to about 300-400 thousand dollars for each American. Now, if all of us would have received even 200K, we could do as us Americans have always done, spend, spend spend, even the drug dealers who actually paid taxes on their cover businesses would spend....then money would have been flowing like crazy,

This has been pointed out more than once. If each of us was just given a share of the bail out, we would not be having the problems we are today.

but NO, they help their friends and fund more crooked businesses to make things like solar panels ♥.

Except... solar panels are actually one of the things we should be investing in. That one company was a cheat doesn't mean the whole industry is undeserving.