One of many problems with Evolution

[hotfire]

noah and his boarders where supposed to be the only ones who survived the flood....so all of those cultures disagree with teh bible...nice evidence u found there

[WILLIAMS5232]

noah and his boarders where supposed to be the only ones who survived the flood....so all of those cultures disagree with teh bible...nice evidence u found there

its hard to disprove mythology and bible magic because "it was written".
no other evidence needed.

[GoranZ]

Interesting but you guys cant explain a single event from your Gods books and you want we to explain everything. Well we will some day but not today, and the reason for that is YOU, guys like you were blocking knowledge for so long. You dont have to look for loops in what I wrote, you simply have to explain with scientific evidence a single event from your Gods books. 1 will be enough

Okay here you go:
We know there was a large land mass we call Pangea correct? In Genesis 1:9 "Then God said 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into ONE PLACE, and let dry land appear, and it was so."

NOT CORRECT Pangaea is not the only Supercontinent... there are others much older then it. So you are missing few, if one exists then others must have also, so when did they existed?
Source: Supercontinent

Genesis 7:11 " In the sixth hundred year of Noah's life, in the second month, on that day all the FOUNTAINS OF THE GREAT DEEP were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." Now scientist have found a great underground ocean 400 miles under the NA continent.

So here are TWO events!

AGAIN NOT CORRECT Reason: "Though not in the familiar liquid form – the ingredients for water are bound up in rock"

Talking about the floods, you say there could not have been a world wide flood, but only a localized one. Then please read on:

Since Noah's Ark landed in the mountains of Ararat (the mountains rose at the close of the Flood), it is not surprising that Noah's progeny migrated down the new Tigris River valley from the mountains to found the earliest post-Flood civilizations such as Sumer, Akkad, Uruk, and Nimrud (which later became Babylon), Haran, Jericho, and Sidon (Phoenicia), and more distantly, Egypt and the Indus Valley of N.W. India. (The Tigris and the Euphrates rivers were named after two of the four pre-Flood rivers mentioned in the Bible that flowed from the Garden of Eden.)

Ancient Babylonian legend speaks of a pre-Flood series of ten kings, the ancient Hindus (N.W India) spoke about a series of Ten Pitris who ruled before the global Flood, and the ancient Egyptians described Ten Shining Ones who ruled consecutively before the Deluge.

Like the Bible also says, these pre-Flood patriarchs lived much longer than we do, and this was confirmed by the ancient historians Berosus, Nicolaus of Damascus, Hesiod, Plato, Hecataeus, Mochus, Hieronymus, and Manetho.

The last of these kings in the aforementioned lists was the hero who led seven others aboard a vessel in which they survived the global Flood. In ancient Babylon, the hero's name was Zisudra who spear-headed the survival on the Ark of seven other humans, the Seven Apkallu. In ancient Egypt, the Flood hero was Toth who survived the Deluge along with the Seven Sages. In ancient N.W. India, the hero was Manu who survived the global-Flood "pralaya" with the Seven Rishis. The odds are astronomically long that these supposedly distinct civilizations would have the same legend of a global Flood with eight people surviving from the pre-Flood population that was led by a series of ten kings if it were not real history that happens to corroborate the Genesis account.

And the odds become even longer that Noah's Flood is not an historical fact when one considers the hundreds of tribes from around the world that have ancestral knowledge of the global Flood. And yet, we are expected to ignore this overwhelming evidence because it contradicts current mainstream science and archaeology. We are also expected to ignore the many ancient legends from various people-groups that corroborate the Biblical account of the confusion of language at the Tower of Babel where Nimrod (also known as Menrot, Marduk, Merodach, Ninus, Sargon, Shun, Bacchus, and Zarathustra) led an act of defiance against God about 150 years after the Flood which devastated the earth around 2400 B.C.

There are many other ancient historical factors, as well as a plethora of geophysical, biological and anthropological indications that support the Genesis rendering of ancient history which can be gleaned from a variety of resources, such as my book Old Earth? Why Not! The accuracy of Genesis is further attested to therein by an analysis of the ancient Biblical names that were thought to be mythological until modern archaeology confirmed their historicity, names such as Haran, Ur, Nahor, Serug, and the Hittites.

Thanks to modern archaeology, these Biblical Hittites were confirmed to be non-mythological, and were discovered to have also had a legend about the global Flood, the same Deluge recounted in a legend from the Tamils of southern India which was survived by, again, eight people, Satyavrata (Noah), Sharma (Shem), Charma (Ham), Japati (Japheth), and their wives.

The Tamils apparently migrated from the Indus River valley to the south around 1500 B.C. when the Ice Age ice-pack melted because of climatic changes at that time which caused the sea-level to rise about 300 feet, with both inducing migrations of people-groups (such as the Aryans from the north, who moved into the Indus Valley and displaced the Tamil people who already were losing ground to the encroaching ocean at that time).

Warmer ocean-water than today's ocean-water must have been the evaporation source for the dense cloud-cover that caused the Ice Age, and the source of that warmer ocean-water was the "fountains of the deep" for Noah's Flood. Many ancient Flood legends do speak of water and magma hissing and venting-up through fissures in the earth's crust to cause the Flood, like described in Genesis. This hot-water from below mixed with the pre-Flood ocean-water to inundate the continents (as indicated by the sedimentary strata on the continents), and thereafter settled in the deepened post-Flood basins.

Reasonable explanations for the cause of the Ice Age are not forthcoming from old-earth-believing scientists because they do not realize that significantly warmer ocean-water (which caused dense cloud-cover from higher ocean-evaporation rates) must have been the cause of the Ice Age, there is no other viable mechanism that could have resulted in the dense cloud-cover necessitated. When the post-Flood ocean cooled sufficiently, the Ice Age ended around 1500 B.C., which is confirmed by submerged megalithic structures off N.W. India, S. India, and S.W. Japan that were engulfed by the sea when the Ice Age ice-pack melted.

Hundreds of tribal legends and ancient accounts from Egypt, Babylon, and the Indus confirm the account of Noah's Flood from the book of Genesis. These tribes and ancient cultures obviously had no interest in copying a Hebrew account about a global Flood, therefore, all of these accounts must have been independently derived by the various people-groups' ancestors from the eight who were on the vessel that endured the global Flood. When the eight reproduced and spread out across the Middle East, and soon thereafter, much of the world (as some were demonstrably great mariners), the memory of the great Flood was retained, and to a not-surprisingly great degree.

by Eric Lyons, M.Min. and Kyle Butt, M.A.
This item is available on the Apologetics Press website at: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/40 - it was originally published in Reason & Revelation, issue 23[11]:102-103

Anthropologists who study legends and folktales from different geographical locations and cultures consistently have reported one particular group of legends that is common to practically every civilization. Legends have surfaced in hundreds of cultures throughout the world that tell of a huge, catastrophic flood that destroyed most of mankind, and that was survived by only a few individuals and animals. Although most historians who have studied this matter estimate that these legends number into the 200s, according to evolutionary geologist Robert Schoch, “Noah is but one tale in a worldwide collection of at least 500 flood myths, which are the most widespread of all ancient myths and therefore can be considered among the oldest” (2003, p. 249, emp. added). Schoch went on to observe:

Narratives of a massive inundation are found all over the world.... Stories of a great deluge are found on every inhabited continent and among a great many different language and culture groups (pp. 103,249).

Over a century ago, the famous Canadian geologist, Sir William Dawson, wrote about how the record of the Flood

is preserved in some of the oldest historical documents of several distinct races of men, and is indirectly corroborated by the whole tenor of the early history of most of the civilized races (1895, pp. 4ff.).

Legends have been reported from nations such as China, Babylon, Mexico, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Persia, India, Norway, Wales, Ireland, Indonesia, Romania, etc.—composing a list that could go on for many pages (see Perloff, 1999, p. 167). Although the vast number of such legends is surprising, the similarity between much of their content is equally amazing. James Perloff noted:

In 95 percent of the more than two hundred flood legends, the flood was worldwide; in 88 percent, a certain family was favored; in 70 percent, survival was by means of a boat; in 67 percent, animals were also saved; in 66 percent, the flood was due to the wickedness of man; in 66 percent, the survivors had been forewarned; in 57 percent, they ended up on a mountain; in 35 percent, birds were sent out from the boat; and in 9 percent, exactly eight people were spared (p. 168).


AMERICAN INDIAN LEGENDS
The Aztecs tell of a worldwide global flood in a story with striking parallels to the biblical deluge. “Only two people, the hero Coxcox and his wife, survived the flood by floating in a boat that came to rest on a mountain” (Schoch, p. 103). Then, soon after the flood, giants constructed a great pyramid in an endeavor to reach the clouds. Such ambition is said to have angered the gods, who scattered the giants with fire sent from the heavens (cf. Genesis 11:1-9).

In the ancient land we now refer to as Mexico, one tribe of Indians, known as the Toltecs, told of a great flood. In their legend, a deluge destroyed the “first world” 1,716 years after it was created. Only a few people escaped this worldwide flood, and did so in a “toptlipetlocali” (a word that means “closed chest”). After these few people exited the closed chest, they wandered about the Earth, and found a place where they built a “zacuali” (a high tower) in case another flood came upon the Earth. At the time of the “zacuali,” the Toltecs’ languages were confused and they separated to different parts of the Earth.

Another ancient tribe of Mexico told the story of a man named Tezpi who escaped the deluge in a boat that was filled with animals. Similar to Noah, who sent out a raven (a scavenger bird) that never returned, and a dove that came back with an olive leaf, “Tezpi released a vulture, which stayed away, gorging on cadavers. Then he let a hummingbird go, and it returned to him bearing a twig” (Schoch, p. 104).


ANCIENT GREEK MYTHOLOGY
According to the Greek legend of the deluge, humans became very wicked. Zeus, the leader of the many gods in Greek mythology, wanted to destroy humans by a flood, and then raise up another group. However, before he could do this, a man by the name of Deucalion, and his wife Pyrrha, were warned of the impending disaster. This fortunate couple was placed in a large wooden chest by one of the immortals named Prometheus. For nine days and nights, the floodwaters covered almost all of the Earth. Only a few mountain peaks remained. The wooden chest came to rest on the peak of Mount Parnassus. Later, after leaving the wooden chest, Deucalion sacrificed to Zeus.


CHINESE AND ASIAN LEGENDS
In the land of China, there are many legends about a great flood. One of those comes from a group of people known as the Nosu. According to their legend, God sent a personal messenger to Earth to warn three sons that a flood was coming. Only the youngest son, Dum, heeded the messenger. He constructed a wooden boat to prepare for the coming flood. When the waters arrived, Dum entered his boat, and was saved. After the waters began to recede, the boat landed on the mountains of Tibet, where Dum had three sons who repopulated the Earth. Interestingly, even the Chinese character for “boat” possibly reveals the story of Noah and the other seven people on the ark. The three elements used to symbolize a boat are:



The Iban people of Sarawak tell of a hero named Trow, who floated around in an ark with his wife and numerous domestic animals (Schoch, p. 252). Natives from India tell a story about a man named Manu who built an ark after being warned of a flood. Later, the waters receded, and he landed on a mountain (Schoch, p. 250).


ANCIENT BABYLONIAN MYTHOLOGY
Possibly the most famous flood account (aside from the biblical record of Noah and the Flood) comes from the ancient Babylonian empire. The Gilgamesh Epic, written on twelve clay tablets that date back to the seventh century B.C., tells of a hero named Gilgamesh. In his search for eternal life, Gilgamesh sought out Utnapishtim, a person who was granted eternal life because he saved a boatload of animals and humans during a great flood. On the eleventh tablet of this epic, a flood account is recorded that parallels the Genesis account in many areas. According to the story, the gods instructed Utnapishtim to build a boat because a terrible flood was coming. Utnapishtim built the boat, covered it with pitch, and put animals of all kinds on it, as well as certain provisions. After Utnapishtim entered the boat with his family, it rained for six days and nights. When the flood ended, the boat rested on Mount Niser. After seven days, Utnapishtim sent out a dove to see if the waters had receded. The dove came back, so he sent a swallow, which also returned. Finally, he sent out a raven—which never returned. Utnapishtim and his family finally exited the boat and sacrificed to their gods (see Roth, 1988, pp. 303-304).

What is the significance of the various flood legends? The answer seems obvious: (a) we have well over 200 flood legends that tell of a great flood (and possibly more than 500—Schoch, p. 249); (b) many of the legends come from different ages and civilizations that could not possibly have copied any of the similar legends; (c) the legends were recorded long before any missionaries arrived to relate to them the Genesis account of Noah; and (d) almost all civilizations have some sort of flood legend. The conclusion to be drawn from such facts is that in the distant past, there was a colossal flood that forever affected the history of all civilizations.

Those living soon after the Flood did not have the book of Genesis to read to their descendants. (Genesis was not written until several hundred years after the Flood.) The account of the Flood was passed from one generation to the next. Many parents and grandparents told their children and grandchildren about the huge ark, the wonderful animals, and the devastating Flood, long before the Genesis record ever existed. Over the years, the details of the story were altered, but many of the actual details remained the same. Alfred Rehwinkel wrote:

Traditions similar to this record are found among nearly all the nations and tribes of the human race. And this is as one would expect it to be. If that awful world catastrophe, as described in the Bible, actually happened, the existence of the Flood traditions among the widely separated and primitive people is just what is to be expected. It is only natural that the memory of such an event was rehearsed in the ears of the children of the survivors again and again, and possibly made the basis of some religious observances (1951, pp. 127-128).

Harold W. Clark, in his volume, Fossils, Flood and Fire, commented:

Preserved in the myths and legends of almost every people on the face of the globe is the memory of the great catastrophe. While myths may not have any scientific value, yet they are significant in indicating the fact that an impression was left in the minds of the races of mankind that could not be erased (1968, p. 45).

After the “trappings” are stripped away from the kernel of truth in the various stories, there is almost complete agreement among practically all flood accounts: (a) a universal destruction by water of the human race and all other living things occurred; (b) an ark, or boat, was provided as the means of escape for some; and (c) a seed of mankind was provided to perpetuate humanity. As Furman Kearley once observed: “These traditions agree in too many vital points not to have originated from the same factual event” (1979, p. 11). In volume three of his multi-volume set, The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology, H.H. Bancroft wrote: “There never was a myth without a meaning; ...there is not one of these stories, no matter how silly or absurd, which was not founded on fact” (1883).

Among the noted scholars of days gone by who have studied these matters in detail are such men as James G. Frazer (Folklore in the Old Testament) and William Wundt (Elements of Folk Psychology). Wundt, who did his utmost to find some kind of reasonable case for independent origins of the various flood sagas (and who had no great love for the biblical evidence), was forced to admit:

Of the combination of all these elements into a whole (the destruction of the earth by water, the rescue of a single man and seed of animals by means of a boat, etc.), however, we may say without hesitation, it could not have arisen twice independently (1916, p. 392, parenthetical comment in orig.).

Or, as Dawson concluded more than a century ago:

[W]e know now that the Deluge of Noah is not mere myth or fancy of primitive man or solely a doctrine of the Hebrew Scriptures. ...[N]o historical event, ancient or modern, can be more firmly established as matter of fact than this (1895, pp. 4ff.).


REFERENCES

Bancroft, H.H. (1883), Works: The Native Races of the Pacific Slope—Mythology (San Francisco, CA: A.L. Bancroft).

Clark, Harold W. (1968), Fossils, Flood and Fire (Escondido, CA: Outdoor Pictures).

Dawson, John William (1895), The Historical Deluge in Relation to Scientific Discovery (Chicago, IL: Revell).

Kearley, F. Furman (1979), “The Significance of the Genesis Flood,” Sound Doctrine, March/April.

Perloff, James (1999), Tornado in a Junkyard: The Relentless Myth of Darwinism (Arlington, MA: Refuge Books).

Rehwinkel, Alfred M. (1951), The Flood (St. Louis, MO: Concordia).

Roth, Ariel (1988), Origins: Linking Science and Scripture (Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing).

Schoch, Robert M. (2003), Voyages of the Pyramid Builders (New York: Jeremy P. Parcher/Putnam).

Wundt, William (1916), Elements of Folk Psychology, trans. Edward L. Schaub (New York: Macmillan).

There's some evidence for a world wide flood.

Noah's flood happen ~2400 BC? How come Egyptians were building Pyramids then?
More info here: Fifth Dynasty of Egypt... Ups seems like you are WRONG AGAIN

[universalchiro]

Goran, did you really think you could pull that slight of hand and not get caught? Did you purposefully leave out that the ages for Egyptian dynasty is approximate and the age of the flood is approximate?
Come on dude, rise above spinning the story to support your side. You got caught, again.

Evolutionist have ranges of 50 million year +/- 5 million years, and you're going to harp on creationist having a range of 50 years to 4,000 years? Another double standard exposed.

[Metsfanmax]

Goran, did you really think you could pull that slight of hand and not get caught? Did you purposefully leave out that the ages for Egyptian dynasty is approximate and the age of the flood is approximate?
Come on dude, rise above spinning the story to support your side. You got caught, again.

So now the person whose position is that the age of the flood is whatever he wants it to be to support his arguments, is accusing someone else of "spinning the story?" Lol.

[isaiah40]

NOT CORRECT Pangaea is not the only Supercontinent... there are others much older then it. So you are missing few, if one exists then others must have also, so when did they existed?
Source: Supercontinent

If the other "super" continents are real, then the Bible is still correct!

AGAIN NOT CORRECT Reason: "Though not in the familiar liquid form – the ingredients for water are bound up in rock"

Who's to say that the water didn't separate from the rock under great pressure?

Noah's flood happen ~2400 BC? How come Egyptians were building Pyramids then?
More info here: Fifth Dynasty of Egypt... Ups seems like you are WRONG AGAIN

Glad you can use Wikipedia as your source GoranZ! I think you know how unreliable wiki is. Also did you even look at the Egyptian link? It is looking for verification that the info is correct. Also the article points out that the dates are approximate. Now if you look at the Jewish calendar - which goes back to when Adam was created - it is only approximately 5763 years, so which means that the flood happened about 3763 years ago. These dates are approximate!!!

[AndyDufresne]

There's a little too much commingling going on in this topic.


--Andy

[oVo]

Millions and millions of years of commingling.

[mrswdk]

the flood happened about 3763 years ago

And yet nowhere in the 5,000 continuous years of the history of Chinese culture is a flood which destroyed everything mentioned.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

the flood happened about 3763 years ago

And yet nowhere in the 5,000 continuous years of the history of Chinese culture is a flood which destroyed everything mentioned.

Obviously, non-Western cultures are ignorant and likely influenced by the devil to confuse the glorious Christian religion.

-TG

[GoranZ]

Goran, did you really think you could pull that slight of hand and not get caught? Did you purposefully leave out that the ages for Egyptian dynasty is approximate and the age of the flood is approximate?
Come on dude, rise above spinning the story to support your side. You got caught, again.

Evolutionist have ranges of 50 million year +/- 5 million years, and you're going to harp on creationist having a range of 50 years to 4,000 years? Another double standard exposed.

What double standard are you talking about? I posted period with 200 years of pyramid building in Egypt, that's 100 before and 100 after from your Noah's flood just to be safe... If you are confident that You are correct and I'm wrong put a voting... or you will chicken out again.

NOT CORRECT Pangaea is not the only Supercontinent... there are others much older then it. So you are missing few, if one exists then others must have also, so when did they existed?
Source: Supercontinent

If the other "super" continents are real, then the Bible is still correct!

No, it is not correct, you need to provide details, exact ones, so it can be determine for which Supercontinent is the bible mentioning... It might be some fake one for now

AGAIN NOT CORRECT Reason: "Though not in the familiar liquid form – the ingredients for water are bound up in rock"

Who's to say that the water didn't separate from the rock under great pressure?

There are oceans in Saturn's moon Titan but they are not even remotely similar to ours... IF we name them the same it doesn't mean that's the same thing, it means that we dont have word for that and we use the most similar one.

Noah's flood happen ~2400 BC? How come Egyptians were building Pyramids then?
More info here: Fifth Dynasty of Egypt... Ups seems like you are WRONG AGAIN

Glad you can use Wikipedia as your source GoranZ! I think you know how unreliable wiki is. Also did you even look at the Egyptian link? It is looking for verification that the info is correct. Also the article points out that the dates are approximate. Now if you look at the Jewish calendar - which goes back to when Adam was created - it is only approximately 5763 years, so which means that the flood happened about 3763 years ago. These dates are approximate!!!

How big approximation do you want me to do? Is 200 years of pyramid building during fifth dynasty in Egypt not enough? You want 13 billion years?

the flood happened about 3763 years ago

And yet nowhere in the 5,000 continuous years of the history of Chinese culture is a flood which destroyed everything mentioned.

Poor Chinese... You guys dont count (according to the Creationists)

[Metsfanmax]

the flood happened about 3763 years ago

And yet nowhere in the 5,000 continuous years of the history of Chinese culture is a flood which destroyed everything mentioned.

Obviously, non-Western cultures are ignorant and likely influenced by the devil to confuse the glorious Christian religion.

-TG

We don't need the devil to explain this -- God went in and adjusted the Chinese history books as a test, to see whether we would have faith.

[universalchiro]

Let's say there is a country or people that doesn't have a record of the Great flood, does their lack of record keeping prove the absence of a global flood, is this enough evidence for you that the Bible is wrong? Does one culture not having a record usurp the 25 other cultures that have a Great flood legend and mountain tops have sea shells and giant size clams on the top of the Andes are petrified in the closed and the layers of the crust of the earth are smooth and laid according to density from a flood, and no river on earth having greater than 4,500+/- years worth of sediment deposited.

Oh wait, turns out China does have a Great flood legend:
Great Flood (China)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Great Flood of China (Chinese: 大洪水; pinyin: Dà Hóngshuǐ, or just 洪水) (also known as the Gun-Yu myth[1]) was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine: according to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of the Emperor Yao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_%28China%29

[Metsfanmax]

Let's say there is a country or people that doesn't have a record of the Great flood, does their lack of record keeping prove the absence of a global flood, is this enough evidence for you that the Bible is wrong?

None of us are looking for evidence that the Bible is wrong. We can assume it's wrong without any positive evidence to the contrary.

Your problem is that you see the possible existence of a global flood as evidence for the truth of the metaphysical claims in the Bible, when really even if a global flood had happened, that wouldn't give the Bible any truth value whatsoever.

[BigBallinStalin]

Let's say there is a country or people that doesn't have a record of the Dastardly Devilish Event, does their lack of record keeping prove the absence of a global Dastardly Devilish Event, is this enough evidence for you that a special book is wrong? Does one culture not having a record usurp the 25 other cultures that have a Dastardly Devilish Event legend and mountain tops have sea shells and giant size clams on the top of the Andes are petrified in the closed and the layers of the crust of the earth are smooth and laid according to density from a flood, and no river on earth having greater than 4,500+/- years worth of sediment deposited (lol, run-on sentence FTW).

Oh wait, turns out China does have a Dastardly Devilish Event legend:
Great Flood (China)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Great Flood of China (Chinese: 大洪水; pinyin: Dà Hóngshuǐ, or just 洪水) (also known as the Gun-Yu myth[1]) was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine: according to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of the Emperor Yao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_%28China%29

Yeah, dude, floods happen. Good job changing your vague definition of Dastardly Devilish Event so that anything closely resembling a "water event" will meet your ever-changing criteria for evidence. Yawn, too easy.

[universalchiro]

Using the Scientific Method, there is evidence of evolution with the progression of more complicated and detailed video gaming and more sophisticated computer operating systems and with the evolution of more and more functional Apps for cellphones.
All one has to do is open their eyes and see there are no VCRs for they evoled into DVDs with some simple random changes of letters.
But the most obvious is the evolution of cars, this clearly demonstrate given enough time came the advanced models we see today from the simple first single power mechanical instruments many years ago.

[hotfire]

Using the Scientific Method, there is evidence of evolution with the progression of more complicated and detailed video gaming and more sophisticated computer operating systems and with the evolution of more and more functional Apps for cellphones.
All one has to do is open their eyes and see there are no VCRs for they evoled into DVDs with some simple random changes of letters.
But the most obvious is the evolution of cars, this clearly demonstrate given enough time came the advanced models we see today from the simple first single power mechanical instruments many years ago.

foed

[AndyDufresne]

--Andy

[PLAYER57832]

There is a requirement of trillions of genetic random unguided mutations (evolutionary process) that has allegedly increased the information in the genome in evolution. Yet this is not observable. Not even the top evolutionist has observable evidence and nor do you. So stop pretending your faith in evolution is fact, stop deluding yourself.

Wrong, on both counts. Evolution to occur does not actually require any added information, "merely" rearranging protein sequences. If you want to consider going from diploid to triploid chormosomes to be merely rearranging information ... well, that is like saying that the sun is "nodifferent" from a match because they both are a type of burning.

Further, genetic change IS observable. The nay-sayers typically try to claim that because observed changed are just small or in rapidly reproducing species it "cannot be compared" to what happens in higher level species over a long time, but there is no logic or fact behind that assertion. It ONLY makes sense if you start with the assumption that evolution is a pack of lies and therefore basically any attack on it is legitimate. That is, by-the-way, what Dr Morris assumed. I heard him say that it s not a lite to change data if it matches the Bible. Sorry, but that is NOT what Christ taught. The Bible clearly states that false witness is a sin.

Scientist can be mistaken. No doubt of that. No REAL scientists denies that. However, what you assert is that there is a huge conspiracy of lies... all for the sole purpose of taking people away from Christ. That is a nice conspiracy theory, but not at all backed by truth. What scientistsdo IS very much in the open, for all to see. It is, sadly becoming harder to find because so many want to simply rely upon internet searchs, and the top few finds of those searches at that! However, if you go back to the traditional arenas.. library research, obtaining copies ofstudies, etc, etc.... most information i savailable. Oh, yeah.. one other area of unavailability. A LOT of research is now done through private companies. IN the past, almost all had some kind of government support, and because of that it was made public. HOWEVER, more and more research, while still ultimately funded by we taxpayers, is funneled through programs that do not require the information to be public. This, of course makes sense if you are talking about something like high level nuclear research. However, the impact of marcellus shale chemicals on US citizens? Except... that is now considered priviliaged information, as is the success rate of many disease treatments (insurance priviliage), etc.

Evolutionist that are not aware of the difference between adaptation and evolution, really should stop posting that you know about the topic. You are embarrassing yourself and you don't see it.

Nothing to see. The claim of a distinction is a more recent attempt by nay-sayers to somehow justify their misinformation.... a bit more esoteric than claiming that dinosaurs never existed and were just fictional ideas, but distortion none-the-less. I won't even bother asking you to explain why you would possibly believe there should be difference.. you just have not not had any kind of real science, so you believe the lies you have been taught.

Adaptation already has the information for adapting to external stimulus already in the DNA coding.

Sort of. Adaptation really does not even have to have a genetic component, per se. Some behavior changess, for example, are legitimately called adaptation, but don't necessarily reflect a genetic change. HOwever, that is sort of splitting hairs, depends on the definition.

To use the genetic adaptation definition, you can loosely say that its "merely rearranging coding", but you ignore how very, very powerful even the smallest genetic change can be. Yet... some changes do nothing, or seem to do nothing (in some cases minor changes may not be apparent, until some environmental change brings out a particular attribute)

There are limits to how far a creature can adapt, the limits of adaptation are set by the DNA code, if one gets too close they become sterile, still birth, premature death from disease, sickness, climate or predators.

Only partially true. In many, many, many cases change does lead to death or deformity. BUT... every once in a great while, the change becomes successful. In billions of years, it only takes a few of those changes to completely alter the course of life.

Evolution requires NEW information in the DNA coding to produce new function and new kind.

What makes you believe that to be true? Sorry, you are just wrong. Relatively "minor" genetic changes can make HUGE changes between species. We share about 99% of the DNA that a dog has. We share roughly 95% of Bird DNA, overall. Now the very interesting part is that if you piece out specific components, you can find small sections of very different species that actually have alike DNA. Sometimes these chunks will be essentially dormant in one species or may even impact a completely different aspects of the creature. (and no, I do NOT mean artificially created species!!)

Anyway, the error you make is in assuming that the genetic changes have to be more extreme than they need to be. Sorry, you information is just wrong, not based on observation or facts. Its based on "let's see what we can come up with to attack evolution...and hope a few people think it makes sense). The REAL goal of all this is nothing to do with religion, by-the-way. God does not dictate lies! The REAL motive is that science too often discovers inconvenient truths... like that we are causing far, far, FAR more harm to the world around than is nice to contemplate.

The problems: Imbedded in the DNA code is to not select a creature that has inability to adapt to changes in external stimulus. So evolutionary theory that mutated DNA gets passed on, is not reality, for creatures select the strong, not the weak (and all mutations produced a loss of function, not an enhancement).

Just not true. Not true at all. Have no idea how you think this even could be true, except, as I already said.. you just have no real science background. All you know is a pack of lies.

And no... I base my truths on what I actually see and observe.

The remoteness of evolution:
A protein is much simpler than the DNA code. and a protein has 20 amino acids in a chain of 150 sequenced. The odds of random unguided amino acids in a primordial soup of complex chemicals forming ONE single protein is 1 in 2X10exp150. That's 150 zeroes after the 2. Let that sink into your belief system, the odds of a protein forming via evolutionary process is 1 in 2X10exp150. And the DNA code is much more complex and goes on for billions of sequences. The odds are beyond possible.

LOL review probabilities a bit more, please. NOte, in particular that the ends of the curves NEVER REACH ZERO! In other words, you can have probabilities that are 1 in 1,000000000000000000000... add as many zeros as you like, and it is still a possibility. AS CC dice show, very improbable is in now way the same as impossible. Now, whether that is worth considering depends on the application. I am not going to risk my life on something that has only a 1 in 2 chance of success... probably not something that has a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of failure, even. (at least knowingly). However, VERY, VERY, VERY improbable things happen all the time. People DO get hit by lightening, DO win the lottery, do find cures to diseases that have killed millions. Far more improbable things do happen. People even managed to get to the moon!!!!

That's why the question at the start of the first post, reveals the lack of possibility of evolution, for the question was posed to one of the elite minds of evolution, "come up with one increase in the genetic code from mutations?", the response, "<crickets>".

LOL,, try again. Scientists are not trying to predict anything. Probability has some use there, but even then gets grossly misused. Too many people forget that probability is not a real predictor, it is a representation of chance. It only becomes predictable in very, very, VERY large populations/ large sequences of events. IN other words, the idea that you "will win" by buying one lottery ticket is, well, possible, but not very probable. If you buy a million tickets, your chances are much, much better... at least to win one of the minor prizes. To be "reasonably" sure of winning, though, you would have to buy several million tickets. To be REALLY sure, though, you would have to buy ALL the tickets. Of course, you would have to spend more money than you would win to get even a real decent probability of winning. (that's why lotteries make money for those running them!) BUT, that is not what people do (though those who pool their money into groups approach this concept). People spend a small amount of money, money they can afford to lose (hopefully, anyway). They mostly know they won't win, but the slight chance, the hope of a big payoff is so huge that they are OK with "wasting" a small amount in the hope.

Evolution, on the front side, that is, the prediction side, a far greater gamble. The gamble is not just the genetics, it is in what particular feature will actually lead to success. Adaptaton often leads to highly specialized creatures. The coral reefs, for example, are full of creatures that do very, very well in their particular narrow environment... but those same features that allow them to survive are of no benefit, may even be a detriment, elsewhere. Kill off the coral reef in a particular area and a few species might remain, changed, but most will just go away, never to be seen again. A more direct and easy to see example happens in logging. The difference between an unlogged, old growth forest and a newer, "second growth" are profound. The forest is "still there", but greatly changed. Its not even that most of the species are gone... many still do remain. The key is that a few species that were very highly adapted to that particular old growth environment cannot do well in the new, changed regime. Whether that matters is an entirely different issue. I am not discussing forestry here. The point is it is an example of the process. AND< it is also an example of how evolution really happens, as opposed to how you have been taught it "ought" to happen. See, this change has already resulted in a change of the species mix in our world. A list of endangered species is essentially a list of species highly adapted, highly dependent upon specific local environments. Again, whether that "matters" is another question... and one that mostly has to do with human responses and impacts. The point is that all of these changes in environment have DRAMATICALLY altered the mix of species on our earth. As a result we actually ARE seeing evolution happen around us. Your experts deny this, because, well they start with the assumption that the idea that evolution is false and selectively look for data that will only support their ideas. They make the claim that seeing evolution in "lesser creatures" does not imply change can happen in more complex species. They give no reason for this, it is just their assumption, something they want to be true, so they assert it is.

This is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what scientists, real scientists do. Now, let me say that scientists are humans and therefore make errors, some even commit outright fraud. That is human nature. Science, itself is a pure process. That humans employ it imperfectly means we are human, not that science itself is wrong. (another error... finding a scientist that lies in support of evolution is no more proof that science is a lie than finding a charletan greedy clergy person means that Christianity is a lie)

Anyway, the ONLY fact of probability that matters in the study of evolution is that it never, ever reaches zero. Evolutionary scientists don't say "hwat is the probability that a T-Rex happened. They look at the fact that we have bones. This can get a tad confusing, but only if you really want to be confused. Some scientists.. Cladists... do look at probabilities of certain features being related to one another. At one point, when we had far fewer techniques available, it was a major way of studying fossils. The idea was that if a creature had more features that were alike, it was more likely related to another creature with those same features. It was not long, however, before paleontologists discovered that while this might generally and often be true, it is absolutely not always true. That chance matters. In time, more and more fossils were found, in layers that gave a clear time-line. A volcanic eruption captures all the creatures alive at that time. Another eruption captures those from another period. Similarly, sediments bury species over time. Looking at these, scientists saw what changes HAD happened. Going back they could discover what changes actually happened. In many cases, there were/are still huge gaps. We now have many, many more tools to use, but there are still gaps. In some cases the story was so improbable sounding it took a lot of time and a preponderance of evidence. Most people would not instantly think that whales came from a land animal.. yet they did. Dinosaurs were long thought to be basically big lizards, but now we know many are closer to birds.

What is observable: Mutations produce a loss of function, weakness, shortness of life, and loss of desirability for reproduction.

The evidence does not support this assumption. Plain and simply, it is just not true. Sorry, but those saying this are either misguided or just plain lying.

And what evolution requires is trillions upon trillions of mutations that enhance, improve function, make one stronger, increase longevity, make one more desirable to the opposite sex for reproduction, not just one instance, but trillions upon trillions.

And? it is a very, very, very improbable process. Improbable does not mean "did not happen" Sorry, but you are just wrong.

The EVIDENCE shows that evolution happened. The only probability that matters is that its not zero. As long as the probability is not a true zero (can be very, very close to zero), there is a possibility.

[Dukasaur]

Welcome back, Player.

[GoranZ]

Let's say there is a country or people that doesn't have a record of the Great flood, does their lack of record keeping prove the absence of a global flood, is this enough evidence for you that the Bible is wrong? Does one culture not having a record usurp the 25 other cultures that have a Great flood legend and mountain tops have sea shells and giant size clams on the top of the Andes are petrified in the closed and the layers of the crust of the earth are smooth and laid according to density from a flood, and no river on earth having greater than 4,500+/- years worth of sediment deposited.

Egyptians and Chines people at that time were leading human civilization, people from those 25 cultures you are mentioning were behind.

Oh wait, turns out China does have a Great flood legend:
Great Flood (China)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Great Flood of China (Chinese: 大洪水; pinyin: Dà Hóngshuǐ, or just 洪水) (also known as the Gun-Yu myth[1]) was a major flood event that continued for at least two generations, which resulted in great population displacements among other disasters, such as storms and famine: according to mythological and historical sources, it is traditionally dated to the third millennium BCE, during the reign of the Emperor Yao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Flood_%28China%29

That is flood, that is not whole country under water , nice try tho

Can someone from Creationist here provide REAL EVIDENCE FOR GLOBAL FLOOD in which the earth is actually under water... all of it.

Using the Scientific Method, there is evidence of evolution with the progression of more complicated and detailed video gaming and more sophisticated computer operating systems and with the evolution of more and more functional Apps for cellphones.
All one has to do is open their eyes and see there are no VCRs for they evoled into DVDs with some simple random changes of letters.
But the most obvious is the evolution of cars, this clearly demonstrate given enough time came the advanced models we see today from the simple first single power mechanical instruments many years ago.

I think it is time for you to evolve into more advanced chicken

[PLAYER57832]

Welcome back, Player.

Thank you.

I see a lot of old debators... Widowmaker, in particular

[PLAYER57832]

Using the Scientific Method, there is evidence of evolution with the progression of more complicated and detailed video gaming and more sophisticated computer operating systems and with the evolution of more and more functional Apps for cellphones.
All one has to do is open their eyes and see there are no VCRs for they evoled into DVDs with some simple random changes of letters.
But the most obvious is the evolution of cars, this clearly demonstrate given enough time came the advanced models we see today from the simple first single power mechanical instruments many years ago.

foed

Ironically, your sarcastic argument shows very well why you misunderstand evolution.

If you came from an alien planet and somehow believed that a change in the letters of the abbreviation.. from VCR to DVD needed to illustrate any real change in the machines, you would quickly decide it just did not happen. In truth, of course, the ideas that led to putting data, pictures and sound on tape DID lead to the discover of putting those things, and more onto, hard discs.

If you BEGIN by assuming that evolution "must" fit some particular mold or another, then you don't discover how it actually happened. Scientists may begin with ideas... they have to test something, but more often than not find they were just wrong in their initial ideas. The idea comes from the evidence, not the reverse.

Its fine to begin with the idea that evolution must be limited as you describe. The trouble is that a real scientists discards that idea when viewing the contrary evidence. That you fail to discard disproven ideas puts you outside the realm of science.

Science doesn't ask that things make sense. Scientists try to understand, but often begin with serious puzzles and seeming improbabilities. Then they go out and research and, sometimes quickly, sometimes only after a very long time, find the real answers.

[PLAYER57832]

Can someone from Creationist here provide REAL EVIDENCE FOR GLOBAL FLOOD in which the earth is actually under water... all of it.

This is slightly off topic, but I want to point out that not all Bible believing Christians insist that the Biblical flood really referred to our entire Earth.

The "world" known to ancient peoples was much smaller than what we consider today. If a significant portion of the Earth, the entire known civilization, were inundated, then the understanding would be that it was a universal flood. A second, related question is whether the Bible actually applies to the Americas. The answer is that the HISTORY within the Bible mostly does not. The Old Testament is a history of the Jewish people and their interactions with other cultures. Other cultures and societies are mentioned only in the light of their interactions with the Jews. Further, it is not even a complete history of all the tribes of the Jewish people.

When you look at what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what many people want to claim it says or have been taught to believe is intended...you can get a different understanding. When you take it in the context of proven history and compare it to what is known in a scientific way, you get a picture that is not all in disagreement. I find the claims to the contrary to be sad and showing not limitations of God or religion, but limits of human understanding only.

Humans, not the Bible, decided once that the Earth "HAD" to revolve around the sun because God created humanity to be superior on Earth. Some humans also seem to have decided that if God used processes instead of what we loosely call "magic" to create, do the works shown in the Bible, it is somehow "not miraculous" or "not from God". That is a HUMAN limitation, not one put forward by God or Christ.

To bring this back to the thread title, a huge number of people, most of Christianity, in fact, do not believe that the timeline given in Genesis is really referring to specific human-created time definitions. Instead, it was a general time frame, the closest that those putting down the words (and those reading them) could come to understand the concepts God wanted people to know. In a time when 4 meant basically "a big number" and 40 meant more or less "more than can be counted easily" -- much like we say "millions and millions", the words in the Bible were true, but not strictly literal as some wish to insert. (those who deny limit their definition of Christianity to those who agree with their ideas... in other words, they say only Christians disbelieve evolution because their definition is that those who accept evolution are not Christians).

[GoranZ]

Can someone from Creationist here provide REAL EVIDENCE FOR GLOBAL FLOOD in which the earth is actually under water... all of it.

This is slightly off topic, but I want to point out that not all Bible believing Christians insist that the Biblical flood really referred to our entire Earth.

The great flood mentioned in the Bible is probably one of the very few stories in which science and christian religion agree that actually happen... The size of the event is another story. But for the people that survived the event on the territory that was flooded was actually the whole known world for them.