Is God really Just?

[jay_a2j]

There is no "evidence of evolution".

how many times...
yeah jay, darwin just had a massive random guess that everyone thought sounded kinda funky. That's all it is.

Now I know there are a lot of people who insist gravity is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If gravity was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

Evolution vs creation is not really a debate, not matter how many times creationists flatter themselves that it is. It's on the same footing as the argument between flat-earthers and the rest of us 'globists'.

lol ya ok. The difference here is that we have some pretty concrete evidence that the Earth is NOT flat. Seeing someone from France can sail west and end up back at France without ever having traveled east, is pretty much a given that the Earth is not flat. Now, if we could only find a half-breed of animal. Oh yeah, that is the missing link in Darwin's theory and still we have not found it.

[heavycola]

There is no "evidence of evolution".

how many times...
yeah jay, darwin just had a massive random guess that everyone thought sounded kinda funky. That's all it is.

Now I know there are a lot of people who insist gravity is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If gravity was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

Evolution vs creation is not really a debate, not matter how many times creationists flatter themselves that it is. It's on the same footing as the argument between flat-earthers and the rest of us 'globists'.

lol ya ok. The difference here is that we have some pretty concrete evidence that the Earth is NOT flat. Seeing someone from France can sail west and end up back at France without ever having traveled east, is pretty much a given that the Earth is not flat.

Ha yeah OK. You take the word of a french sailor over the bible?

Daniel 4:10-11. the king 'saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.'

Matthew 4:8 'Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory.'

Job 38: 12-13 'take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it'

Now, if we could only find a half-breed of animal. Oh yeah, that is the missing link in Darwin's theory and still we have not found it.

just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's wrong.

[FabledIntegral]

Over 66% of the world is either Islamic or Christian, aka the two largest religions in the world.

Atheists are predicted to only make up around 15% of the world's population, although yes, they are positively correlated with education when comparing with religion (not necessarily intelligence).

There are two reasons for this corrolation. First, pure numbers.

The other factor is wealth. Education is directly tied to wealth. More highly wealthy folks are not religious.

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

No, by the standards of most of the world "poor" college students are actually quite rich.

They have food (more than many, even if they miss a meal or don't eat the best) shelter ... often even medical care, even in the US, where those things are not free.

Well if you want to put in all the uber poor third world countries go ahead. Now you're just being technical. I understand what you're saying but concerning the studies they were most likely done in only one country, otherwise the results would be meaningless really.

Wow, you really need to read Genesis again. God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth".

So does Evolution .. or just what do you think minerals, etc. are?

Not evolved Adam from an ape. You are the one believing lies.

The funny thing is that Evolution does not say man evolved from an ape either ... CHECK YOUR FACTS! And that about sums up the biggest reason why Creationists tend to be considered at best HIGHLY misinformed and more often, highly gullible to down right idiotic.

There is a reason science cannot prove evolution, because it never happened.

No, science almost never PROVES anything .. it generally disproves stuff ... and your version of Creationism HAS been disproven. Further, though there are legitimate questions about Evolution (big E, the theory) ... such as were dinosaurs warm blooded, did birds evolve directly from certain dinosaurs, exactly how old the earth is etc. There IS NO question about the foundations, the basics.

The FACTS are that evolution (small e) as a process HAS been proven. Natural selection DOES occur, but is not the only factor of Evolution (and Christians absolutely believe God is steering the whole enterprise!). Mutations absolutely occur. Species absolutely change over time and DO become other species, though quite slowly. The Earth is definitely millions of years old, not thousands.

And be warned that many attend church but that does not make them Christian.

You took the words out of my mouth ...

Some "Christian" denominations support homosexuality, will you then support it, if it becomes the "norm" in Christian churches?

When I am perfect, THEN and only then will I have the right to judge others. THAT is what the Bible says. Until then, the earthly concern is one of "will it harm me". Homosexuality does not.

If your understanding of scripture is based on "majority rules" without verifying the teaching in scripture, you may end up being a part of fulfilled prophecy..... "In those days many will be deceived, even the elect if that were possible".

No majority does not rule, but there are very good reasons WHY so many, many, many churches agree with evolution. It is REAL. Denying it is to deny truth. Period. There IS no other way around it. IF you bothered to research the "facts" you claim support your ideas, you would realize this. Instead, you wish to view the MOST NARROW possible interpretation.

Doesn't it strike you as just a little strange that, while you claim to adhere so strictly to the OLD TESTAMENT, that Jews - the keepers of the old testament since before Christ, the very folks who brought forth Christ and to whom we look for our historical precedence.. THEY have NEVER questioned this idea of evolution ...

YOUR ideas are limited to a very narrow group of supposedly "fundamentalist" Christians. You want to draw fine lines around words like "dust" and claim that the Genesis reference to "days" means a revolution of the our Earth (before Earth even existed!) instead of as bodies of time, an illustration for non-scientific humans. The concept of working, then resting. You want to take that reference as absolutely and utterly exact, yet, later, when the Bible talks of "sons of God" ... and talks of "Giants" THEN you decide it is OK to not be so literal.

You want to hold certain laws as above others, though the BIBLE, the new Testament tells us the law to hold ABOVE ALL ELSE is to "love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself", NOT "judge everyone". I stand by my beliefs and my views. I stand among much good company.

If you wished to look critically at those who are proposing what you put forth, you will not find such stellar examples. You will find people putting forth hatred of others as if it were love, condemnation instead of acceptance and forgiveness. Judgement of others instead of self-criticism. Lies that are "OK" because in the end, they will be justified by truth (talk about hypocrisy!). THOSE are not the principals that Christ put forth.


YOu want evidence of evolution? Look around, watch the plants grow, LEARN about the relationships between animals, plants, the impacts that we, as humans have had on the Earth around us. Only God could have created such perfection (and yes, I know non Christians don't agree .. move on, please). To limit God to what YOU percieve, to what YOU think is to deny his majesty. How simple it would have been for him to simply snap his fingers and say "poof" here is everything. Except, that is not what actually happened. What did happen is a testament to God, not believing lies.

You want to try to challenge Evolution? FIRST understand it. I am not discussing it further in this thread. I am not going to repeat what has already been said in other threads again and again. You can either view truth or let yourself be decieved. Everything science puts forward as truth is PROVED. Creationism insists on falsities and lies.

Well, I can't get into all the things wrong with this post because I don't want to be here forever. You seem to know a lot about me..."you" , "your"...you have no idea what I believe or why I believe what I believe. But I digress, I'm not going to argue with someone so adamant about "being right". I am having a difficult time buying "most Christians support evolution" so I started a poll in the JF forum. Currently, creation by way of evolution, is getting crushed, but who knows, that could change. I guess even if creation via evolution loses the poll, the majority here at CC are a bunch of misled fools "believing lies".

There is no "evidence of evolution". Science law #1, "It must be observable" and since it is not, it is not proven. Now I know there are a lot of people who insist evolution is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If evolution was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

It is observable. Scientists have already found tons of halfbreed species due to evolution. Most Christians merely dismiss it as the same animal (because phenotypically, it looks almost identical still) who simply for some reason or another can't breed together anymore.

Or even the more amusing one - you see a bird evolve into a different species of bird, but the Christian will come up and say "but it's still a bird so it didn't change!"

That's the best one^^

[jay_a2j]

It is observable. Scientists have already found tons of halfbreed species due to evolution. Most Christians merely dismiss it as the same animal (because phenotypically, it looks almost identical still) who simply for some reason or another can't breed together anymore.

Or even the more amusing one - you see a bird evolve into a different species of bird, but the Christian will come up and say "but it's still a bird so it didn't change!"

That's the best one^^

The day someone shows me an alligator with hair or a mouse with scales, you know something becoming another life form all together.... I will believe in evolution.

What you describe is adaptation not evolution.

[Juan_Bottom]

What you describe is adaptation not evolution.

I'm just gonna stop you here because I caught you!!!!!!

adaptaion+adaptainon+adaptation+adaptation+adaptation=evolution.

I won't mention any species by name or anything, I just needed to remind you of this. You just got caught is all.

[PLAYER57832]

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

No, by the standards of most of the world "poor" college students are actually quite rich.

They have food (more than many, even if they miss a meal or don't eat the best) shelter ... often even medical care, even in the US, where those things are not free.

Well if you want to put in all the uber poor third world countries go ahead. Now you're just being technical. I understand what you're saying but concerning the studies they were most likely done in only one country, otherwise the results would be meaningless really.

Even within the same country. College students joke about "being poor" and often fully believe they are poor ... but only a VERY small percentage actually are.

Even in the U.S., there are many homeless, many who go to bed hungry (it was eradicated in the 80's but is back) ...and though mental illness, drugs, etc are common causes, more and more they are not. More and more it is illness and layoffs of hard-working folks, combined with the just plain high cost of living that does folks in. THOSE people, those children fail LONG before college is even a consideration.

It is better in Europe, but still, the poor are not college students, the poor are the ones pulling weeds from fields by hand, the temporary workers, etc.

No, College students are not truly poor, and your opinion speaks volumes for how little you have really and truly observed of the world around you.

There is no "evidence of evolution". Science law #1, "It must be observable" and since it is not, it is not proven. Now I know there are a lot of people who insist evolution is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If evolution was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

It is observable. Scientists have already found tons of halfbreed species due to evolution. Most Christians merely dismiss it as the same animal (because phenotypically, it looks almost identical still) who simply for some reason or another can't breed together anymore.

Or even the more amusing one - you see a bird evolve into a different species of bird, but the Christian will come up and say "but it's still a bird so it didn't change!"

That's the best one^^

PLEASE note it is NOT "most Christians" who think this ... it is a ONLY the small, mostly US group of "fundamentalist" Christians who think this... though they wish to believe otherwise, as you can see from Jay's post.

[Juan_Bottom]

I hear you Player57832.

[PLAYER57832]

It is observable. Scientists have already found tons of halfbreed species due to evolution. Most Christians merely dismiss it as the same animal (because phenotypically, it looks almost identical still) who simply for some reason or another can't breed together anymore.

Or even the more amusing one - you see a bird evolve into a different species of bird, but the Christian will come up and say "but it's still a bird so it didn't change!"

That's the best one^^

The day someone shows me an alligator with hair or a mouse with scales, you know something becoming another life form all together.... I will believe in evolution.

What you describe is adaptation not evolution.

Adaptation IS evolution! (or a very big part of it anyway!)

Evolution (big E) also includes large die-offs, mutations, etc.


Continue to show your ignorance, please .. it is rather amusing.

[PLAYER57832]

I am having a difficult time buying "most Christians support evolution" so I started a poll in the JF forum.

A CC poll... yep, so much better, much more representative, than just visiting the websites of the respective churches to READ what they have to say. [/quote]

Currently, creation by way of evolution, is getting crushed, but who knows, that could change. I guess even if creation via evolution loses the poll, the majority here at CC are a bunch of misled fools "believing lies".

Because, of course there is absolutely NO possibility that I might be speaking the truth...

[jay_a2j]

PLEASE note it is NOT "most Christians" who think this ... it is a ONLY the small, mostly US group of "fundamentalist" Christians who think this... though they wish to believe otherwise, as you can see from Jay's post.

Really? Because "most Christians" at CC believe this. (see the poll) And I am to assume that you made your "facts" up to suit you and your views. I stand by my position that MOST born again Christians do NOT accept evolution. Not that Jim, John and Joe who attend a Christian church don't believe in evolution, but then again going to church doesn't make you "Christian".

[jay_a2j]

Because, of course there is absolutely NO possibility that I might be speaking the truth...

Now you're getting it! And why? Because it CONTRADICTS scripture!

[Juan_Bottom]

Because, of course there is absolutely NO possibility that I might be speaking the truth...

Now you're getting it! And why? Because it CONTRADICTS scripture!

I'm an Atheist and even I don't see where.... For reals Jay.

[jay_a2j]

For reals Juan.

[Juan_Bottom]

For reals Juan.

What?

[jay_a2j]

For reals Juan.

What?

God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". It doesn't say from another animal. THAT would be reading into scripture. Something the Bible does not state. And the point being, is that where I am sure there are Christians who believe God created Adam through evolution, it is a MINORITY that do. (and I am speaking of born again Christians not "people who attend church")

[Juan_Bottom]

For reals Juan.

What?

God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". It doesn't say from another animal. THAT would be reading into scripture. Something the Bible does not state. And the point being, is that where I am sure there are Christians who believe God created Adam through evolution, it is a MINORITY that do. (and I am speaking of born again Christians not "people who attend church")

Great, you have tunnel vision. It doesn't say that God didn't give animals the ability to evolve! Which might explain why they do(for a Christian). "God moves in mysterious ways?" Who are you to say what "God's plan" is?

[jay_a2j]

For reals Juan.

What?

God created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". It doesn't say from another animal. THAT would be reading into scripture. Something the Bible does not state. And the point being, is that where I am sure there are Christians who believe God created Adam through evolution, it is a MINORITY that do. (and I am speaking of born again Christians not "people who attend church")

Great, you have tunnel vision. It doesn't say that God didn't give animals the ability to evolve! Which might explain why they do(for a Christian). "God moves in mysterious ways?" Who are you to say what "God's plan" is?

Double

[Juan_Bottom]

Double

I'm guessing you never thought of it that way?

[jay_a2j]

Double

I'm guessing you never thought of it that way?

No, I'm thinking, why am I having a conversation on scripture when the person I'm talking to doesn't even believe in God much less that the Bible is the Word of God. And why am I allowing this person to verse me in scripture?

My bad.

Now if you want to talk football, politics or border security, we can do that.

[PLAYER57832]

PLEASE note it is NOT "most Christians" who think this ... it is a ONLY the small, mostly US group of "fundamentalist" Christians who think this... though they wish to believe otherwise, as you can see from Jay's post.

Really? Because "most Christians" at CC believe this. (see the poll) And I am to assume that you made your "facts" up to suit you and your views. I stand by my position that MOST born again Christians do NOT accept evolution. Not that Jim, John and Joe who attend a Christian church don't believe in evolution, but then again going to church doesn't make you "Christian".

AAAH .. don'e like my statement, so change the definition ... yep, sounds about like Creationist arguments alright!

You see I NEVER SAID "BORN AGAIN" Christians ... in fact, I very specifically said that about the ONLY GROUP THAT DOES think as you on Creationism are the Fundamentalist groups .. which are those also often called "born again".

Nice try, but you are still wrong.

And, it is not for you to define Christianity, it is for God ... And the Bible simply says that "he who believes in me shall be saved." not all those extra requirements you seem to want to employ (and note, I said nothing about church going, I said "belief")

[Juan_Bottom]

Double

I'm guessing you never thought of it that way?

No, I'm thinking, why am I having a conversation on scripture when the person I'm talking to doesn't even believe in God much less that the Bible is the Word of God. And why am I allowing this person to verse me in scripture?

My bad.

Now if you want to talk football, politics or border security, we can do that.

Look, I was not debating this as an Atheist. I would love to be able to say that the Bible says evolution is impossible. It would reinenforce my belief over yours. But it never says that, near as I can tell. You don't have to be a Christian to be able to read the Bible, only to care. My being Atheist has nothing to do with anything the Bible already says.

And am I versing you? I was asking you to teach me!!! But I'm glad you're perspective 'evolved' here.

[FabledIntegral]

Not exactly. Currently the people that have the most education are college students, as much of their knowledge that they retain from the education dwindles from the years. In the prime of their education, students are generally very poor. I myself am a university student at UCI, and have less than $500 in my account atm (and gas prices at $4.15 are killing me ). And studies show religion is lowest at urban areas + colleges... although from what I'm aware they still make up a majority.

No, by the standards of most of the world "poor" college students are actually quite rich.

They have food (more than many, even if they miss a meal or don't eat the best) shelter ... often even medical care, even in the US, where those things are not free.

Well if you want to put in all the uber poor third world countries go ahead. Now you're just being technical. I understand what you're saying but concerning the studies they were most likely done in only one country, otherwise the results would be meaningless really.

Even within the same country. College students joke about "being poor" and often fully believe they are poor ... but only a VERY small percentage actually are.

Even in the U.S., there are many homeless, many who go to bed hungry (it was eradicated in the 80's but is back) ...and though mental illness, drugs, etc are common causes, more and more they are not. More and more it is illness and layoffs of hard-working folks, combined with the just plain high cost of living that does folks in. THOSE people, those children fail LONG before college is even a consideration.

It is better in Europe, but still, the poor are not college students, the poor are the ones pulling weeds from fields by hand, the temporary workers, etc.

No, College students are not truly poor, and your opinion speaks volumes for how little you have really and truly observed of the world around you.

There is no "evidence of evolution". Science law #1, "It must be observable" and since it is not, it is not proven. Now I know there are a lot of people who insist evolution is fact. But sadly, they aren't looking at the facts. If evolution was ever proven to be fact, we would no longer be debating it. It is a theory and only a theory.

It is observable. Scientists have already found tons of halfbreed species due to evolution. Most Christians merely dismiss it as the same animal (because phenotypically, it looks almost identical still) who simply for some reason or another can't breed together anymore.

Or even the more amusing one - you see a bird evolve into a different species of bird, but the Christian will come up and say "but it's still a bird so it didn't change!"

That's the best one^^

PLEASE note it is NOT "most Christians" who think this ... it is a ONLY the small, mostly US group of "fundamentalist" Christians who think this... though they wish to believe otherwise, as you can see from Jay's post.

To Player - there's a distinct difference between poverty and poor. Poverty is considered worse and that is what you are describing. I would very well put the college student who works 40 hours per week and has massive debts to pay off as poor. I myself survived off Wendy's friggin' chili and caesar salad for a full quarter (used to be $2.15... they've upped the price like crazy from the inflation in the last few months).

To Jay - that is evolution, whether you want to admit it or not. It's funny, I just described the definition of evolution, and because of your paradigm or whatnot on the subject you insist that what I described, although true, is not evolution. You're convinced in your mind that some drastic noticable change as a merge of some species will suddenly jump out. Ridiculous.

Put it this way. That bird that no longer can breed with what it USED to be able to breed with... now it's a separate species. Now that bird migrates somewhere else - in a completely different area. Due to further adaptation, the birds that are born with longer, thinner beaks are those that survive via natural selection due to the food sources being different in the area. The birds also with thicker claws that can perch on thorny branches survive due to the different terrain.

As Juan said... adaptation + adaptation + adaptation = evolution, by DEFINITION. You can argue as much as you want that man didn't come from ape, that's NOT the point. I'm not even saying they did. That's the "Theory of Evolution" which you seem to dislike, not evolution itself. Completely different when saying an animal can evolve into a different species, which is fact, vs a theory which possibly explains our origin....

Funny, really. And sorry PLAYER - I realize I am stereotyping the typical Christian to what the fundamentalist American Christian is as that is what I'm exposed to.

[jay_a2j]

PLEASE note it is NOT "most Christians" who think this ... it is a ONLY the small, mostly US group of "fundamentalist" Christians who think this... though they wish to believe otherwise, as you can see from Jay's post.

Really? Because "most Christians" at CC believe this. (see the poll) And I am to assume that you made your "facts" up to suit you and your views. I stand by my position that MOST born again Christians do NOT accept evolution. Not that Jim, John and Joe who attend a Christian church don't believe in evolution, but then again going to church doesn't make you "Christian".

AAAH .. don'e like my statement, so change the definition ... yep, sounds about like Creationist arguments alright!

You see I NEVER SAID "BORN AGAIN" Christians ... in fact, I very specifically said that about the ONLY GROUP THAT DOES think as you on Creationism are the Fundamentalist groups .. which are those also often called "born again".

Nice try, but you are still wrong.

And, it is not for you to define Christianity, it is for God ... And the Bible simply says that "he who believes in me shall be saved." not all those extra requirements you seem to want to employ (and note, I said nothing about church going, I said "belief")

Now we're getting somewhere.

"You say that you believe in God? Good! Even demons know that there is a God and tremble!"

Nicodemus asked Jesus, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus replied, "You must be born again."



So you are saying that most people who consider themselves Christians believe in evolution. Now that, I can agree with. And you don't even have to think real hard on why that is!

[kagetora]

You know, being an athiest, I think this is a really pointless thread.

No, God is not just because he does not exist, or is not all powerful, or is a liar.

Reasoning:

Being a former Christian, the Christian belief says that we all have a choice on whether or not to follow god. However, Christians also believe that God has this "Master Plan" or whatever you want to call it, that involves everything down to the atoms of the universe.

So, is it still a choice if the decision and outcome are already known?

Answers:
Yes, because I'm not ruled over by a god. (No god here)
No. Now god lied to me. (lying god)
Yes. For me it is a choice, even though it's ruled over by a higher being. (revert to no)

[PLAYER57832]

Because, of course there is absolutely NO possibility that I might be speaking the truth...

Now you're getting it! And why? Because it CONTRADICTS scripture!

Except it DOES NOT.

What it contradicts is the most narrow idea possible of what those words mean and ONLY if you refuse to take those words in the context of the entire Bible.

Genesis is not a scientific document. It was never intended as an absolutely precise explanation of the exact scientific method that God created the earth. It is a story, a true story, but one meant for an entirely unscientific people who definitely did not take meanings as literally as you seem to think they did. Sorry, but BIBLE HISTORY contraodicts your view.

Ancient Jews did not believe the world was 4000 years old. Contrary to what you have been taught, that idea is actually less than 200 year old. It arose as an extremely narrow response to Darwin, NOT because of study of the Bible. And, it never gained sway UNTIL a group decided that they had to take their kids out of school and absolutely forbid and prevent them from learning what REAL science is. How's that honesty and truth for you.

I don't fear knowledge. There are certain "mature" or violant episodes that I don't go into details. There are concepts that my young children are not quite ready to fully understand, so I will water down things a bit ... but lie? NEVER. Your group insists on denying facts that HAVE been verified, that ARE real ... you believe lies rather than read the Bible the way it was intended.

Freedom of belief, of religion is absolutely OK. But, when that "religion" goes from teaching truth to denying truth and teaching lies ... when you moreover do so in the name of Christ, you blasphemy and desecrate the name of the Lord!

Christ NEVER supports lies ... that is SATAN's tool. Taht you won't even look at the things you claim you are "disproving" .. not only shows idiocy, it shows blasphemy. God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.