Is God really Just?

[jay_a2j]

Because, of course there is absolutely NO possibility that I might be speaking the truth...

Now you're getting it! And why? Because it CONTRADICTS scripture!

Except it DOES NOT.

What it contradicts is the most narrow idea possible of what those words mean and ONLY if you refuse to take those words in the context of the entire Bible.

Genesis is not a scientific document. It was never intended as an absolutely precise explanation of the exact scientific method that God created the earth. It is a story, a true story, but one meant for an entirely unscientific people who definitely did not take meanings as literally as you seem to think they did. Sorry, but BIBLE HISTORY contraodicts your view.

Ancient Jews did not believe the world was 4000 years old. Contrary to what you have been taught, that idea is actually less than 200 year old. It arose as an extremely narrow response to Darwin, NOT because of study of the Bible. And, it never gained sway UNTIL a group decided that they had to take their kids out of school and absolutely forbid and prevent them from learning what REAL science is. How's that honesty and truth for you.

I don't fear knowledge. There are certain "mature" or violant episodes that I don't go into details. There are concepts that my young children are not quite ready to fully understand, so I will water down things a bit ... but lie? NEVER. Your group insists on denying facts that HAVE been verified, that ARE real ... you believe lies rather than read the Bible the way it was intended.

Freedom of belief, of religion is absolutely OK. But, when that "religion" goes from teaching truth to denying truth and teaching lies ... when you moreover do so in the name of Christ, you blasphemy and desecrate the name of the Lord!

Christ NEVER supports lies ... that is SATAN's tool. Taht you won't even look at the things you claim you are "disproving" .. not only shows idiocy, it shows blasphemy. God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Romans 5 (thanks fellow Brother in Christ)

[Backglass]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Please? We would all appreciate it. Evidently he will only listen to a fellow "brother in christ".

[MeDeFe]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Please? We would all appreciate it. Evidently he will only listen to a fellow "brother in christ".

Player is a sister, so that could prove to be a problem...

[tzor]

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Please? We would all appreciate it. Evidently he will only listen to a fellow "brother in christ".

That can be difficult, if not impossible, especially if one is stuck in a fallicy (if not an outright heresy) of a literal and personal interpertation of the Bible. After all consider the passage in Acts (Acts 8:26-31)

Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."

So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.

The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"

He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

Also consider the writins of Peter in his second letter (2 Peter 3:15-18) when he wrote

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)

To simply argue in "Bible" talk accomplishes nothing, merely two different set of people twisting the scriptures to their own way. The Sacred Scriptures must be understood in the light of the pillar and bulwark of the truth, which is the Church and in the teachings which have been passed down from the Apostles. Even the gnostics quoted the scriptures.

[joecoolfrog]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Please? We would all appreciate it. Evidently he will only listen to a fellow "brother in christ".

Backglass do pay attention, she has been trying her best to explain to him for the last few pages. Sadly though the guy is a narrow minded fool and has no interest in anything other than his blinkered dogma, the only truth is his truth, suicide bombers share the same mindset !

[Juan_Bottom]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Please? We would all appreciate it. Evidently he will only listen to a fellow "brother in christ".

Backglass do pay attention, she has been trying her best to explain to him for the last few pages. Sadly though the guy is a narrow minded fool and has no interest in anything other than his blinkered dogma, the only truth is his truth, suicide bombers share the same mindset !

Like the Texans say, "I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you."

[Backglass]

Backglass do pay attention, she has been trying her best to explain to him for the last few pages.

Just encouraging her...thats all.

Sadly though the guy is a narrow minded fool and has no interest in anything other than his blinkered dogma, the only truth is his truth, suicide bombers share the same mindset !

QFT.

[jay_a2j]

2 words, Spirit baptism.

[Dancing Mustard]

2 words, Spirit baptism.

21 words: You're not making any sense. Try forming coherent points instead of just spitting out odd words you think might sound smart.

[PLAYER57832]

Romans 5 (thanks fellow Brother in Christ)

The funny thing is Creationism, the age of the earth are somehow not even mentioned.

As for your definition of "born again" being the "only" Christians. You were right about one thing. There are a lot of scriptures. True Christains know to look at the entire text, not just single phrases and to take things into the full context. There ARE only a very few churches that see things as you do AND they are all very recent incarnations, largely in the US, though through missionaries, those ideas have spread.

You accuse me of "not knowing my facts", but could not even bother to find out to whom you were speaking ... and STILL cannot be bothered to even verify, by the most basic means (checking the respective church websites, for example) which of us is correct. THAT speaks volumes.

Satan can quite scripture ... very well. BUT Satan falls against real study and attention to the full Bible. Seems you cannot be bothered, though ...

And I have to ask ... what verse gives you the right to criticize things that you cannot even be bothered to understand. God does not teach that. That is not the path of truth, it is the path of lies.

The thing you miss is that I DO know, am familiar with your beliefs because, first, I DO NOT criticize things without first seeing if I am correct. Secondly, you and those of similar ideas insist on proclaiming them and broadcasting them widely so it is pretty hard to be in the United States and NOT know.

You, on the other hand, do not understand a whit about evolution or Evolution, or even what other Christians really believe, and seem content to read only a few passages of the Bible and to take them out of context.

[dcc1220]

I have not read through this entire thread, but some might be interested in a video series I watched this past year. It is called THE TRUTH PROJECT. It is basically the taped lectures of a course instructed by Dr. Del Tackett. It was produced by Focus On The Family, so it obviously begins from a Christian perspective, but I have had non-Christian friends watch the series and find it non-confrontational and has begun many open conversations. It has it's own web-site: thetruthproject.org

Check it out if interested.

[jay_a2j]

Romans 5 (thanks fellow Brother in Christ)

The funny thing is Creationism, the age of the earth are somehow not even mentioned.

As for your definition of "born again" being the "only" Christians. You were right about one thing. There are a lot of scriptures. True Christains know to look at the entire text, not just single phrases and to take things into the full context. There ARE only a very few churches that see things as you do AND they are all very recent incarnations, largely in the US, though through missionaries, those ideas have spread.

You accuse me of "not knowing my facts", but could not even bother to find out to whom you were speaking ... and STILL cannot be bothered to even verify, by the most basic means (checking the respective church websites, for example) which of us is correct. THAT speaks volumes.

Satan can quite scripture ... very well. BUT Satan falls against real study and attention to the full Bible. Seems you cannot be bothered, though ...

And I have to ask ... what verse gives you the right to criticize things that you cannot even be bothered to understand. God does not teach that. That is not the path of truth, it is the path of lies.

The thing you miss is that I DO know, am familiar with your beliefs because, first, I DO NOT criticize things without first seeing if I am correct. Secondly, you and those of similar ideas insist on proclaiming them and broadcasting them widely so it is pretty hard to be in the United States and NOT know.

You, on the other hand, do not understand a whit about evolution or Evolution and seem content to read only a few passages of the Bible and to take them out of context.

"Woe to you who call "good", "evil" and "evil", "good" ".

Questions:

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that Jesus IS God?

[PLAYER57832]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Sorry, it is impossible to make some blind people see.

BUT, one thing we ALL should do and that is to take this whole Creationist movement much more seriously.

This is a hard one here in the US and, I suspect in Europe. We believe in freedom of religion and countering Creationism definitely touches on that. BUT, and this is a very big "but". The more you research about Creationsim .. and even the more recent incarnation of "Intelligent Design", the more evedent it is that these "beliefs" twist and alter what most of us know as reality to an incredible extent. I no longer even feel the roots truly ARE religious.

How did it happen? Home schooling was/is the first step. It began just over 20 years ago. Kids were pulled out of school or sent to small parochial schools run by these fundamentalist type churches. Now those kids are adults. They have permeated the Bush administration, all levels of government and are quickly beginning to force their agenda upon the regular school systems across the nation.

They do this, in part, because of religious freedom, but also because so many, many people just don't know basic science and biology. They don't know the basics, never mind the absolutely profound and far-reaching information that is of more recent discovery. Most people are at least somewhat aware of the growth and change in medicine. But, similar growth has occured in most fields of science. YET, the education that kids in school are learning barely corrosponds with what I learned back ... well a few years ago, let's just say. I learned about gene recombination in College. It should be taught to grade schoolers by now, but is not. Ask the average student why it matters that the zebra mussel is now in the MIssissippi River and you get blank looks or scoffs. And yet, this one little mussel has to potential to devastate economies up and down the river...

They have no idea what happens when trees are logged, except the Timber industries 'all cutting is good" and the environmentalist "all cutting is bad". They have little idea of the requirements of farms or even where food really comes from, never mind understanding why various cultures eat various things.

I could go on and on, but you get the point, I think.

The REAL answer.

First, if you ARE a Christian (and I realize most here in this thread are not), then you HAVE to fight this from the church and with truth. They wish to frame this as a Christian versus non-Christian debate. The time for tolerating that is long past. They can denounce us all they wish, but the overwhelming majority of Christians cannot stay silent on this any longer.

If you are NOT Christian, then don't allow yourselves to get sucked into that idea, either. Whenever someone tries to say Christians believe ... and athiests don't. Correct them! Say, sorry, but most Christians don't seem to agree or some such.

FOR BOTH, step outside. Pay attention to what is really and truly being taught in the schools. This is NOT about a "political agenda" (that is the other battle front to science ... and believe me, the tie is NO cooincidence!!!!). This is about TRUTH. Kids NEED to be exposed to a variety of ideas. Questioning, learning about controversies is great. That is part of education. BUT what cannot happen, but too often, now, is happening, is passing off opinion as fact. DO NOT allow this! Challenge and question. Teach your kids to do the same. Challange your neighbor's and friend's and their children to do the same.

Remember, this is about TRUTH. If they wish to teach Creationism ... let them. BUT, be ABSOLUTELY SURE it is NOT confused with science. Science is about proof and facts and theories that can be supported by facts. There is NO such support for any Creationist ideas. ALL the attempts to try and "prove" it either simply quote the Bible (which can be read in different ways) OR resort, ultimately, to lies and misunderstandings. (usually not even that far down).

Look at Jay's constant talk of Man evolving from monkeys ... or claims that adaptation is not evolution. ( it is not all of Evolution, the theory ... it most certainly is evolution, small "e" the proven facts) Jay refuses to even look at what evolution really means!

So, sorry, but I cannot change a good majority of minds on this. BUT, we all can and MUST take steps within our own communities to see that truth is kept alive.

[heavycola]

God and Christ stand for truth. Science proclaims truth. They are not in conflict.

Then can you please explain to jay in your "biblical language" that evolution is real, dinosaurs didn't walk with man and the earth is much more than 6000 years old?

Sorry, it is impossible to make some blind people see.

BUT, one thing we ALL should do and that is to take this whole Creationist movement much more seriously.

This is a hard one here in the US and, I suspect in Europe. We believe in freedom of religion and countering Creationism definitely touches on that. BUT, and this is a very big "but". The more you research about Creationsim .. and even the more recent incarnation of "Intelligent Design", the more evedent it is that these "beliefs" twist and alter what most of us know as reality to an incredible extent. I no longer even feel the roots truly ARE religious.

How did it happen? Home schooling was/is the first step. It began just over 20 years ago. Kids were pulled out of school or sent to small parochial schools run by these fundamentalist type churches. Now those kids are adults. They have permeated the Bush administration, all levels of government and are quickly beginning to force their agenda upon the regular school systems across the nation.

They do this, in part, because of religious freedom, but also because so many, many people just don't know basic science and biology. They don't know the basics, never mind the absolutely profound and far-reaching information that is of more recent discovery. Most people are at least somewhat aware of the growth and change in medicine. But, similar growth has occured in most fields of science. YET, the education that kids in school are learning barely corrosponds with what I learned back ... well a few years ago, let's just say. I learned about gene recombination in College. It should be taught to grade schoolers by now, but is not. Ask the average student why it matters that the zebra mussel is now in the MIssissippi River and you get blank looks or scoffs. And yet, this one little mussel has to potential to devastate economies up and down the river...

They have no idea what happens when trees are logged, except the Timber industries 'all cutting is good" and the environmentalist "all cutting is bad". They have little idea of the requirements of farms or even where food really comes from, never mind understanding why various cultures eat various things.

I could go on and on, but you get the point, I think.

The REAL answer.

First, if you ARE a Christian (and I realize most here in this thread are not), then you HAVE to fight this from the church and with truth. They wish to frame this as a Christian versus non-Christian debate. The time for tolerating that is long past. They can denounce us all they wish, but the overwhelming majority of Christians cannot stay silent on this any longer.

If you are NOT Christian, then don't allow yourselves to get sucked into that idea, either. Whenever someone tries to say Christians believe ... and athiests don't. Correct them! Say, sorry, but most Christians don't seem to agree or some such.

FOR BOTH, step outside. Pay attention to what is really and truly being taught in the schools. This is NOT about a "political agenda" (that is the other battle front to science ... and believe me, the tie is NO cooincidence!!!!). This is about TRUTH. Kids NEED to be exposed to a variety of ideas. Questioning, learning about controversies is great. That is part of education. BUT what cannot happen, but too often, now, is happening, is passing off opinion as fact. DO NOT allow this! Challenge and question. Teach your kids to do the same. Challange your neighbor's and friend's and their children to do the same.

Remember, this is about TRUTH. If they wish to teach Creationism ... let them. BUT, be ABSOLUTELY SURE it is NOT confused with science. Science is about proof and facts and theories that can be supported by facts. There is NO such support for any Creationist ideas. ALL the attempts to try and "prove" it either simply quote the Bible (which can be read in different ways) OR resort, ultimately, to lies and misunderstandings. (usually not even that far down).

Look at Jay's constant talk of Man evolving from monkeys ... or claims that adaptation is not evolution. ( it is not all of Evolution, the theory ... it most certainly is evolution, small "e" the proven facts) Jay refuses to even look at what evolution really means!

So, sorry, but I cannot change a good majority of minds on this. BUT, we all can and MUST take steps within our own communities to see that truth is kept alive.

[PLAYER57832]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that Jesus IS God?

Since you obviously could not be bothered to read me previous answer, I will say again Absolutely I do!

But, you are not my judge.

[jay_a2j]

PLAYER do you enjoy leading people astray? And I find it ironic that you didn't answer either of the questions I asked. You see, the problem is, I personally don't think a person can fully understand scripture without being guided by the Holy Spirit. (Probably another thing you denounce) You have all this "man" knowledge yet seem to be lacking in the "God's knowledge" department. If you can't answer those simple questions, I think I know where you are coming from. Good day.

[jay_a2j]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that Jesus IS God?

Since you obviously could not be bothered to read me previous answer, I will say again Absolutely I do!

But, you are not my judge.

I never said that I was your judge. Well, you have the basics down, which is what is important. The other stuff, is icing on the cake. God "winks at our times of ignorance". What is your obsession however, to label me a part of "they"? Am I your enemy? Do I not acknowledge the same Lord as you?

[PLAYER57832]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that Jesus IS God?

Since you obviously could not be bothered to read me previous answer, I will say again Absolutely I do!

But, you are not my judge.

I never said that I was your judge. Well, you have the basics down, which is what is important. The other stuff, is icing on the cake. God "winks at our times of ignorance". What is your obsession however, to label me a part of "they"? Am I your enemy? Do I not acknowledge the same Lord as you?

When you proclaim that the Bible says Evolution is false and that science has not proven much of what it has, ... you lie, or at best, believe lies and now refuse to check them out (as bad or worse than outright lies) ... for the rest, that is between you and God.

[heavycola]

If GWB is an end-timer, as has been suggested, and if his foreign policy is shaped by his beliefs and given some sort of mandate by people like you who have decided to believe that the apocalypse is just around the corner in israel, then it is not just 'icing on the cake'. It is stupid, misguided and possibly dangerosu to lots and lots of people. Clasiming that your reading of scripture is inspired by the holy spirirt while others' is not is pretty arrogant, dude.

And I think your attitude to creation is arrogant, too. In every thread on this forum you have shown a complete unwillingness to read or understand anything about evolution. You still come out with stuff like 'I am not evolved from an ape' (something nobody would argue with for a start) that shows how little, how unbelievably little you understand what you are arguing against. You're obviously not stupid but still you reject any debate whatsoever, which makes you an extremist, and in the wrong hands - OBL for example - that is extremely dangerous.

[jay_a2j]

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

Do you believe that Jesus IS God?

Since you obviously could not be bothered to read me previous answer, I will say again Absolutely I do!

But, you are not my judge.

I never said that I was your judge. Well, you have the basics down, which is what is important. The other stuff, is icing on the cake. God "winks at our times of ignorance". What is your obsession however, to label me a part of "they"? Am I your enemy? Do I not acknowledge the same Lord as you?

When you proclaim that the Bible says Evolution is false and that science has not proven much of what it has, ... you lie... for the rest, that is between you and God.

I pray that God opens your eyes. It should be an easy task to present the evidence then, right? Show me this proof.

[heavycola]

Holding mutually inconsistent opinions is eas, part 1:

The flat earth stuff in Job and elsewhere is just metaphors! It's not meant to be taken literaly! vs. The bible is god's word! It's all supposed to be taken literally! Scientists who suggest genesis isa metaphor are in the employ of satan!

Does it ever occur to you that the vast majority of christians and jews who don't go for your creationism nonsense might have a point? And didn't you get all your 'end times' stuff from a guy called Hal something? is his word holy? OPEN YOUR MIND, JUST A LITTLE!

[Backglass]

I pray that God opens your eyes.

...and I hope that one day, you open your own. Seriously.

[PLAYER57832]

I pray that God opens your eyes.

...and I hope that one day, you open your own. Seriously.

Except we are all quite familiar with your views, but you won't even bother to look into ours ... THAT is the difference!

Remember God NEVER teaches ignorance! So, to refuse to even see ... you are like the Pharasees who could site the law, but never really understood it.

[jay_a2j]

I pray that God opens your eyes.

...and I hope that one day, you open your own. Seriously.

Except we are all quite familiar with your views, but you won't even bother to look into ours ... THAT is the difference!

Remember God NEVER teaches ignorance! So, to refuse to even see ... you are like the Pharasees who could site the law, but never really understood it.

I know that God said that he created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". WHY do you insist on believing that He forgot to add, "by way of evolution"??????? Can you not see that you are adding to scripture that which is NOT there?

"He who has ears let him hear!"

[PLAYER57832]

I pray that God opens your eyes.

...and I hope that one day, you open your own. Seriously.

Except we are all quite familiar with your views, but you won't even bother to look into ours ... THAT is the difference!

Remember God NEVER teaches ignorance! So, to refuse to even see ... you are like the Pharasees who could site the law, but never really understood it.

I know that God said that he created Adam "from the dust of the Earth". WHY do you insist on believing that He forgot to add, "by way of evolution"??????? Can you not see that you are adding to scripture that which is NOT there?

No, because Bible scholars have, for MILLENIA, since before the time of Christ, known that this is not to be taken the way you seem to think everyone should understand it. And, that you seem ignorant of that ... speaks extreme volumes.

If you were even to come and say "yes, I understand this, but more recent research shows ..." then, you might actually even have a discussion. But, you just want to be blind. And I, and probably most folks here, are through wasting our time. You want to think what you like ... fine, but if you want to discuss, bring something new ... don't continue to recite garbage that has been soundly declaimed over and over and over and OVER .. WITHIN the church as well as outside.