InkL0sed wrote:If we hadn't won the Battle of New Orleans, the British might have won the war of 1812... it was a turning point in that war.
The Battle was after the war actually ended. Poor communication back in the day.
The only thing it did was really drive home the message to the British that
A) their tactics needed some work
B) America would never be a part of the Empire again
So while the battle wasn't that important at all, it still kinda was....
Frigidus wrote:That said, it was people like Jackson that ensured at least a draw in the War of 1812, the government sure as hell didn't have a handle on it
I'll give you that.... but it's not enough to make him nearly the best.
Frigidus wrote:You're right, Truman knew that his actions would result in the deaths of thousands,
Trumans "actions" saved the lives of millions soldiers and civilians! Millions! And finally ended the bloodiest conflict ever! There was no agreement or treaty prohibiting atomics, and he even warned the Japs that it was coming both times. Not to point fingers-but it was the Japanese that started killing civilians (taking it so far as to have slaves and sex slaves) long before the Americans. And something that people don't pay attention to is that 41,000 more people died in the Tokyo fire bombing than in Nagasaki (which I know isn't argueing with your point).
HOWEVER, and In fact: the Tokyo Rose hinted that they had already known about the bomb before it was dropped. She said something like "we know that you are coming little plane, and we know what special device you have. We are waiting to shoot you down."
Jackson's actions had nothing to do with saving lives. It was all about power.
Jackson=Genocide
Frigidus wrote:He hit thousands of innocent civilians with WMDs, I'm not going to say "well, he could have done worse". He was a war criminal.
Hiroshima was called "the city of soldiers." They were stationed there because the US didn't bomb it. And a civilian population which supports, and prolonges war cannot be called innocent.
Read this, it'll shed light on what I am trying to say about Truman.
It was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan, on Aug. 6, 1945. The explosion, which had the force of more than 15,000 tons of TNT, instantly and completely devastated 10 square kilometers of the heart of this city of 343,000 inhabitants. Of this number, 66,000 were killed immediately and 69,000 were injured, more than 67 percent of the city's structures were destroyed or damaged. The next atomic bomb to be exploded was of the plutonium type, it was dropped on Nagasaki three days later, producing a blast equal to 21,000 tons of TNT. The terrain and smaller size of Nagasaki reduced destruction of life and property, but nevertheless 39,000 people were killed and 25,000 injured, while 40 percent of the city's structures were destroyed or seriously damaged. Preceding the bombing of Hiroshima the Americans had pledged that if the Japanese did not agree to an unconditional surrender and an immediate conclusion to all hostilities that they would bomb Japan with atomic weapons. The Japanese called the Americans on a bluff or simply dismissed the American's words as tough talk and nothing more, unfortunately for the Japanese, the Americans did have the weapons they claimed they did, and weren't afraid to use them. Hiroshima was destroyed, though a catastrophe for the Japanese, it still did not mean their surrender. The Japanese, urged by their military establishment to continue the pursuit of victory still did not respond to the American threat. It took the Japanese another lost city in Nagasaki three days later to commence peace negotiations. It was too late for over 100,000 people by the time the treaty was signed aboard the American Battleship U.S. Missouri on September.2nd 1945. Japan had in essence, been defeated months before the bomb was dropped, the problem no longer existed to defeat Japan, but to secure her surrender- a far more difficult task. Quite simply, the Japanese did not believe in surrender. Their nation had never lost a war. In addition, Japan's fighting men held ingrained beliefs that to surrender was to disgrace one's self and one's nation. So deeply were these thoughts held that even after both bombs had been detonated and the entry of the Soviet Union into the war, the Japanese military still opposed surrender bitterly, and would prefer death than dishonorable capitulation. With a foe with a mind set such as this, only two options could be considered by the United States government. One being the use of atomic weapons and the other being the invasion of mainland Japan. According to Truman's top military advisors, an invasion of mainland Japan would cost and an estimated 500,000 American lives, not to mention over a million Japanese deaths. Truman wrote years later, We estimated that if we should be forced to carry this [invasion] plan to its conclusion, the major fighting would not end until the latter part of 1946, at the earliest. I was informed that such operations might be expected to cost over a million casualties, in American forces alone. Such an operation would also require the use of European theater American troops departure from Europe to Japan, to an aid in the assault. With the largest invasion force ever assembled, comprising of approximately 2,000,000 troops. (Far larger than the Normandy invasion) According to Major General Masakazu Amanu, the chief of the Operations Section at Japanese Imperial Headquarters, We were absolutely sure of victory over an allied offensive. It was the first and the only battle in which the main strength of the air, land and sea forces were to be joined. The geographical advantages of the homeland were to be utilized to the highest degree, the enemy was to be crushed, and we were confident that the battle would prove to be the turning point in political maneuvering. To repel the invasion, Japan had almost two million troops under arms, while millions of civilians were being trained to kill invaders, with guns, explosive charges strapped to their bodies, and even bamboo spears. Thousands of planes and midget submarines were being produced by the Japanese for suicide missions. Fleet Admiral Nimitz once wrote in a memo to Admiral King regarding the possible invasion of Japan that, We must be prepared to accept heavy casualties whenever we invade Japan.
Truman had a tough call, but in the end it was the right one. However many civilians died, it was far-FAR fewer than how many were being prepared to die.
But that isn't what made Truman such a great man. He went before Congress and asked that everyone help to rebuild Japan! He didn't ask for revenge or anything like that. I could go on,.. but you get the point and I've written enough.
