ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[PLAYER57832]

... Here's a valid question. The Dems have such majorities in both houses right now, why not just pass the wretched thing and have done? If it is going to help so many and do such much to fix present problems... Just pass it already.

...

The Democrats have no interest in doing that, as their campaign contributors and lobbyists in the insurance industry would not be pleased. They talk about passing the bill so as to garner votes from those that would like to see changes made.

And that, not "public opinion" is why the public option has now been dropped.

[PopeBenXVI]

... Here's a valid question. The Dems have such majorities in both houses right now, why not just pass the wretched thing and have done? If it is going to help so many and do such much to fix present problems... Just pass it already.

...

Because when things go bad then they want to be able to say it was "bipartisan" not that they rammed it down everyones throat. It's about the blame game. I don't remember for sure but doesn't the proposed legislation not even take effect until 2013? I thought they had to do it this month or we are screwed! Would that be so people forget who forced it on us by 2013 and then when the private companies go out of business and peoples jobs are lost then they can just blame the other party who will be back in charge by then?

Naaaa, they would be honest and remind people they did it right?

[Nobunaga]

... Here's a valid question. The Dems have such majorities in both houses right now, why not just pass the wretched thing and have done? If it is going to help so many and do such much to fix present problems... Just pass it already.

...

Because when things go bad then they want to be able to say it was "bipartisan" not that they rammed it down everyones throat. It's about the blame game. I don't remember for sure but doesn't the proposed legislation not even take effect until 2013? I thought they had to do it this month or we are screwed! Would that be so people forget who forced it on us by 2013 and then when the private companies go out of business and peoples jobs are lost then they can just blame the other party who will be back in charge by then?

Naaaa, they would be honest and remind people they did it right?

... I just thought it odd that our congressmen and women are so convinced that this bill is what's right for America - even if we don't know it... Just pass the damned thing and we'll all be so grateful once we realize the more enlightened world they helped usher in.

...

[PopeBenXVI]

... Here's a valid question. The Dems have such majorities in both houses right now, why not just pass the wretched thing and have done? If it is going to help so many and do such much to fix present problems... Just pass it already.

...

Because when things go bad then they want to be able to say it was "bipartisan" not that they rammed it down everyones throat. It's about the blame game. I don't remember for sure but doesn't the proposed legislation not even take effect until 2013? I thought they had to do it this month or we are screwed! Would that be so people forget who forced it on us by 2013 and then when the private companies go out of business and peoples jobs are lost then they can just blame the other party who will be back in charge by then?

Naaaa, they would be honest and remind people they did it right?

... I just thought it odd that our congressmen and women are so convinced that this bill is what's right for America - even if we don't know it... Just pass the damned thing and we'll all be so grateful once we realize the more enlightened world they helped usher in.

...

Some were even sure of how good it was before they admitted having even read it! They are calling it reform so who needs to know the details right? Just vote yes and shut up.

[Frigidus]

... Here's a valid question. The Dems have such majorities in both houses right now, why not just pass the wretched thing and have done? If it is going to help so many and do such much to fix present problems... Just pass it already.

...

Because when things go bad then they want to be able to say it was "bipartisan" not that they rammed it down everyones throat. It's about the blame game. I don't remember for sure but doesn't the proposed legislation not even take effect until 2013? I thought they had to do it this month or we are screwed! Would that be so people forget who forced it on us by 2013 and then when the private companies go out of business and peoples jobs are lost then they can just blame the other party who will be back in charge by then?

Naaaa, they would be honest and remind people they did it right?

... I just thought it odd that our congressmen and women are so convinced that this bill is what's right for America - even if we don't know it... Just pass the damned thing and we'll all be so grateful once we realize the more enlightened world they helped usher in.

...

Some were even sure of how good it was before they admitted having even read it! They are calling it reform so who needs to know the details right? Just vote yes and shut up.

See my above post. It won't pass. It wouldn't matter if 80% of Americans wanted it, the insurance companies sure as shit do not. Guess which one of those groups has lobbyists? It's no coincidence that Democratic super majorities can't even get to the point where the Republicans would filibuster. Their constituencies (no, not those they represent, those that fund them) are opposed, so they will never take action on it. The Republican and Democratic parties don't support a lot of things that most Americans on the right and left agree on, and they support a lot of things that most Americans right and left oppose. They talk big on things they don't (and in some ways can't) ever change, such as gay marriage, abortion, and global warming, but they all agree on what's best for our corporations. When this first started, I'd predicted that the Democrats would be the final say in killing the bill, not the Republicans. Gee, look what happened.

[thegreekdog]

Frigidus is right on, in my opinion.

If the Democrats are politically savvy enough, they'll blame any failure on the Republican Party (not sure how they're going to do that... I'm not a political consultant).

[PLAYER57832]

Frigidus is right on, in my opinion.

I agree... said more or less the same thing several several days ago. Now I believe it was a deal cooked by Obama from the start.

I do hope there will be some reform, but without a public option... the insurance companies are not going to just roll over and start insuring people who will lose them money when they don't have to do so.

[Nobunaga]

... An absolute must-read, this article from the Wall Street Journal. Not specifically on health care, but not worth a new thread.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 52872.html

... Why Obama won... and why everything for him has to be done now.

...

[PLAYER57832]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

[MrWainthrope]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

"Thwop thwop thwop" those NWO Helicopters are coming to take you away! Everybody who isn't teabagging in the town-hall is a member of the Illuminati! Evil shadowy figures rule over us all, and only John McCain and Rush Limbaugh will save us!

[Nobunaga]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

"Thwop thwop thwop" those NWO Helicopters are coming to take you away! Everybody who isn't teabagging in the town-hall is a member of the Illuminati! Evil shadowy figures rule over us all, and only John McCain and Rush Limbaugh will save us!

... Initially I thought that avi was a kid of yours.

... My bad.

...

[PLAYER57832]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

"Thwop thwop thwop" those NWO Helicopters are coming to take you away! Everybody who isn't teabagging in the town-hall is a member of the Illuminati! Evil shadowy figures rule over us all, and only John McCain and Rush Limbaugh will save us!

... Initially I thought that avi was a kid of yours.

... My bad.

...

My "kid" at home is 8 and 2 ... and the others (18,21) are pretty conservative.

[Phatscotty]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

[Nobunaga]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

"Thwop thwop thwop" those NWO Helicopters are coming to take you away! Everybody who isn't teabagging in the town-hall is a member of the Illuminati! Evil shadowy figures rule over us all, and only John McCain and Rush Limbaugh will save us!

... Initially I thought that avi was a kid of yours.

... My bad.

...

My "kid" at home is 8 and 2 ... and the others (18,21) are pretty conservative.

... MrWainthrope is your kid?

...

[PLAYER57832]

I did notice that its now the "media elite" instead of "liberal elite".

"Thwop thwop thwop" those NWO Helicopters are coming to take you away! Everybody who isn't teabagging in the town-hall is a member of the Illuminati! Evil shadowy figures rule over us all, and only John McCain and Rush Limbaugh will save us!

... Initially I thought that avi was a kid of yours.

... My bad.

...

My "kid" at home is 8 and 2 ... and the others (18,21) are pretty conservative.

... MrWainthrope is your kid?

...

NO... I thought you were saying you thought he was. I explained that since the two I have here are 8 and 2, they hardly have the ability to be him... and the other two would not express the views he did (I am, after all, the "evil stepmother" .. and that statement is only part tongue in cheek).

[PLAYER57832]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

Except IT NEVER WAS AN OPTION.

What was defeated is not "socialized healthcare". It is the option to have a bottom line check on the insurance companies, an option.

[Frigidus]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

Except IT NEVER WAS AN OPTION.

What was defeated is not "socialized healthcare". It is the option to have a bottom line check on the insurance companies, an option.

That won't convince him. He will keep cheering over the deaths of Americans for the sake of his preferred economic theory no matter how bad the system gets. He is a willing servant of the corporations that control this country.

[PLAYER57832]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

Except IT NEVER WAS AN OPTION.

What was defeated is not "socialized healthcare". It is the option to have a bottom line check on the insurance companies, an option.

That won't convince him. He will keep cheering over the deaths of Americans for the sake of his preferred economic theory no matter how bad the system gets. He is a willing servant of the corporations that control this country.

I wasn't trying to change his beliefs... just clarify the facts. What he says is in the bill never was in it.

Anyone is free to dislike the bill... but it should be because of what is actually IN THE BILL.

[Nobunaga]

... You people still seem to think this is about health care.

...

[Snorri1234]

... You people still seem to think this is about health care.

...

And you people should stop making it about something else.

[thegreekdog]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

Except IT NEVER WAS AN OPTION.

What was defeated is not "socialized healthcare". It is the option to have a bottom line check on the insurance companies, an option.

That won't convince him. He will keep cheering over the deaths of Americans for the sake of his preferred economic theory no matter how bad the system gets. He is a willing servant of the corporations that control this country.

Player is simply wrong, and I don't know why she keeps insisting that the defeated bill was not socialized healthcare. I've explained it before, I've pointed to the specific provision in the bill, and she's ignored me. I'm not sure what else I have to do.

And Frigidus' "argument" is another political gun that the liberals use; unfortunately, it can be applied with the same effect to the liberals themselves.

[PLAYER57832]

Hooray for defeating socialized health care!

Except IT NEVER WAS AN OPTION.

What was defeated is not "socialized healthcare". It is the option to have a bottom line check on the insurance companies, an option.

That won't convince him. He will keep cheering over the deaths of Americans for the sake of his preferred economic theory no matter how bad the system gets. He is a willing servant of the corporations that control this country.

Player is simply wrong, and I don't know why she keeps insisting that the defeated bill was not socialized healthcare. I've explained it before, I've pointed to the specific provision in the bill, and she's ignored me. I'm not sure what else I have to do.

Just because I disagree does not mean I have not heard your argument, nor does it mean I need "further explanation".

You claim that if the government is involved, they inherently won't "fight fair", will tax the insurers, etc so that they won't be competetive and therefore even having the public option is equivalent to socialized medicine.

I have referred you both to the bill, AND to other countries that do have a mix of the two. You have not even looked into other countries, you just keep on with government=bad. That is not "facts" it is political opinion.

And please stop insisting that I think corporations are all bad, am anti competition, etc. I just don't happen to think that profit and HEALTHCARE go together. You may not think it wrong that Blue Cross denied me care (and they did), questioned every bill we had for over 2 years (other than some -- not all -- well pregnancy visits to my OB). You may not see any connection between Blue Cross refusals to pre-authorize visits to specialists in a timely manner is connected to greed of the Blue Cross executives, but I do. I am not "anti corporation", but I don't give them a free pass on causing me and my family harm, either.

[thegreekdog]

You know Player, that entire post was unnecessary. I was simply pointing out that the bill that was being circulated had in it a public option that, as I indicated before, would turn into public-only (people kept their insurance until they left their jobs, etc., etc). Therefore, it was socialized healthcare. That's all I was referring to; not whether socialized healthcare was bad (I think it is, at least for the US), not whether you hated corporations, not whether other countries succeeded in providing healthcare universally. Simply that the public option in the current bill would turn it into a public-only plan.

[Titanic]

You know Player, that entire post was unnecessary. I was simply pointing out that the bill that was being circulated had in it a public option that, as I indicated before, would turn into public-only (people kept their insurance until they left their jobs, etc., etc). Therefore, it was socialized healthcare. That's all I was referring to; not whether socialized healthcare was bad (I think it is, at least for the US), not whether you hated corporations, not whether other countries succeeded in providing healthcare universally. Simply that the public option in the current bill would turn it into a public-only plan.

Is that actually true? I've only heard of that on here. I thought the bill said after your current plan expires your new insurance will have to meet the conditions set out in the bill, not that you have to join the public plan.

[Snorri1234]

You know Player, that entire post was unnecessary. I was simply pointing out that the bill that was being circulated had in it a public option that, as I indicated before, would turn into public-only (people kept their insurance until they left their jobs, etc., etc). Therefore, it was socialized healthcare. That's all I was referring to; not whether socialized healthcare was bad (I think it is, at least for the US), not whether you hated corporations, not whether other countries succeeded in providing healthcare universally. Simply that the public option in the current bill would turn it into a public-only plan.

Is that actually true? I've only heard of that on here. I thought the bill said after your current plan expires your new insurance will have to meet the conditions set out in the bill, not that you have to join the public plan.

It's not actually true.