Wisconsin State Employees & Budget Cuts

[PLAYER57832]

I think Phatscotty is right that there are a lot of cleverly worded polls. I agree with those 71% and 69% of Wisconsinites in NS post. However, there's no percentage given of people who agree with Walker that all public sector unions should be demolished. Hell, that's been the whole discussion up till now.

In fact, CBS just talked of a poll showing that most people support the public employees.

AND, contrary to what Walker and many of the more virulant Republicans and Tea Partiers claim, most people would rather pay more taxes than see services cut.

We want the corporations and wealthy to pay more of their share, because THEY, not we get the vast majority of benefits. We don't want the piddly amounts we might recieve or our neighbors might recieve to be cut.

Link to follow, gotta go now.

[PopeBenXVI]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Only that the teachers are always publicly saying it's for the kids and that kids come first. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie here.

[thegreekdog]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Only that the teachers are always publicly saying it's for the kids and that kids come first. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie here.

I think when everyone knows it's b.s. it loses its shock-worthiness.

[PLAYER57832]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Only that the teachers are always publicly saying it's for the kids and that kids come first. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie here.

No, because it gets a lot harder to keep your attitude up, deal with difficult students and parents when you are getting reasonably compensated.

Also, remember, many of these people gave up previous pay raises with the promise that "well, we won't pay you that much now, but you will be taken care of upon retirement".

We DO have an overall problem, but it was not caused by teachers, (nor people on food stamps or who cannot pay their heating bills), so why should they be the ones responsible for fixing this.. particularly when this is not even going to fix anything. The monetary concessions were agreed upon already.

And, ... it seems far less a lie than claims that what is good for x corporation is good for the country's economy.. claims we seem to have heard a lot of lately. Claims, in fact Walker, etc are making, though in a slightly more roundabout way (can't raise taxes.. would hurt the economy)

[Phatscotty]

I think Phatscotty is right that there are a lot of cleverly worded polls. I agree with those 71% and 69% of Wisconsinites in NS post. However, there's no percentage given of people who agree with Walker that all public sector unions should be demolished. Hell, that's been the whole discussion up till now.

he isn't demolishing all of them, in fact, these changes should only affect 50% of public union employees, not to mention police and fire are completely except.

That should not have been the whole discussion until now. Perhaps we are finally getting the truth instead of a bunch of hot-headed rhetoric.

[Phatscotty]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

Well your right. A couple of violent union protestors assaulting news crews and Walker supporters don't speak for everyone. A few people defecating on the floor of the capitol......no big deal. Hundreds of protestors ignoring a police order to vacate the capitol building so they can clean it does not mean all of them disobey law enforcement. A union member ripping wires out of speakers at the tea party rally on the other side of the capitol building was also a 1 man fluke operation. Heck, even if a Democrat legislator were to shout "Your F...ing Dead" to a female Republican on the floor of the assembly after voting for the bill that clearly would still only be 1 of the Dem assemblymen. No one would really mean to say that being what happened to the senator in Arizona right?

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesyk ... 64153.html

Their is no pattern of disrespect here.

I think they are flipping their wigs. Seriously. That is insanity

[Phatscotty]

Nice to see them getting high and getting drunk and shitting on the floor like animals. Plenty of violence and tons of arrests.

What a complete and utter lack of civility.

I am disgusted.

And Obama is going to say don't villify and denigrate the protesters????? WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW (yeah if this was the Tea Party ) If he doesn't want people to villify the protesters then perhaps he should tell people not to look or pay attention to the protesters, because they are showing the whole world baby!!!!

wait, maybe that's why the protesters assaulted a Fox reporter on the air and cut his camera wire...

"get a little bloody" Union Violence and Racism. raw, graphic

You know whats going through my head right now? All the demands from the left that I condemn what someone in another state wrote on a sign/their speech. Anyone on the left have the honor to condemn these actions?

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

Well your right. A couple of violent union protestors assaulting news crews and Walker supporters don't speak for everyone. A few people defecating on the floor of the capitol......no big deal. Hundreds of protestors ignoring a police order to vacate the capitol building so they can clean it does not mean all of them disobey law enforcement. A union member ripping wires out of speakers at the tea party rally on the other side of the capitol building was also a 1 man fluke operation. Heck, even if a Democrat legislator were to shout "Your F...ing Dead" to a female Republican on the floor of the assembly after voting for the bill that clearly would still only be 1 of the Dem assemblymen. No one would really mean to say that being what happened to the senator in Arizona right?

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesyk ... 64153.html

Their is no pattern of disrespect here.

I hope the people in scotty's vid weren't too grievously hurt from having the bird flipped at them. That can really damage you. If, you know, you're 11.

Is it possible to be more dishonest? The senior citizen from the Tea Party who was thrown into the pavement by the union protester...yeah seniors can take a fall, no problemo and it's okay cuz spurg doesn't see anything wrong there. I guess we know where you stand on social security and medicare, since if you can't even condemn violence against a senior citizen, then you could easily condemn their social security payments as well.

Not only refusing to condemn the violence (against a senior man!) but to totally ignore it is even worse.

Forgive me if it is the case that you just missed the attack in the vid.

[PopeBenXVI]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Only that the teachers are always publicly saying it's for the kids and that kids come first. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie here.

No, because it gets a lot harder to keep your attitude up, deal with difficult students and parents when you are getting reasonably compensated.

Also, remember, many of these people gave up previous pay raises with the promise that "well, we won't pay you that much now, but you will be taken care of upon retirement".

We DO have an overall problem, but it was not caused by teachers, (nor people on food stamps or who cannot pay their heating bills), so why should they be the ones responsible for fixing this.. particularly when this is not even going to fix anything. The monetary concessions were agreed upon already.

And, ... it seems far less a lie than claims that what is good for x corporation is good for the country's economy.. claims we seem to have heard a lot of lately. Claims, in fact Walker, etc are making, though in a slightly more roundabout way (can't raise taxes.. would hurt the economy)

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

[Phatscotty]

Ask people and companies in WI to pay a small tax voluntarily

[Juan_Bottom]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

[PLAYER57832]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

A recent CBS poll showed the MAJORITY of Americans would rather pay more taxes than have services cut.

[PLAYER57832]

Ask people and companies in WI to pay a small tax voluntarily

Apparently, that is what the governor is advocating.

See, at the same time he is cutting unions (NOT expenses.. note the unions already agreed to the expense cuts!), he is also offering corporations a tax cut (according to several interviews I heard from the absentee legislators).

BUT, here is the real issue. Regardless of how you feel about the union deal, this action just does not belong in an emergency, stop-gap spending bill.

That he chose THIS method is "dirty politics". And THAT, I think speaks more loudly than anything else. IF he truly had a legitimate cause, then why play these tricks?

(and no, that doesn't apply to the Democrats in this case. Had they stayed, the bill would have gone through without debate or much consideration).

[Night Strike]

See, at the same time he is cutting unions (NOT expenses.. note the unions already agreed to the expense cuts!), he is also offering corporations a tax cut (according to several interviews I heard from the absentee legislators).

If he doesn't cut the unions now when people realize how luxury benefit packages are unsustainable, those cuts that are put in place now will just be forgotten when times get better. In the better times, any Democrats who get elected will do so on a promise to restore union benefits and nothing will have been learned from this situation. However, if you stop the source of the problem now, you put the state on much better ground for keeping a balanced budget longer.

[PLAYER57832]

See, at the same time he is cutting unions (NOT expenses.. note the unions already agreed to the expense cuts!), he is also offering corporations a tax cut (according to several interviews I heard from the absentee legislators).

If he doesn't cut the unions now when people realize how luxury benefit packages are unsustainable, those cuts that are put in place now will just be forgotten when times get better.

Hmm, and here I thought you were in favor of the democratic process? If Democrats get elected, then it will be because people have had enough of the ones in office now.

AND, the real truth is that people don't consider unions "unsustainable". Some do, but not a majority. In fact, a majority of people (according to a recent CBS poll, some other polls) are OK with some increase in taxes to preserve benefits. Almost NONE see eradicating unions as the solution here.

BUT, you ignored the real point. As I said above, this is an EMERGENCY spending bill. For him to take this action on that kind of bill is wrong.

The other debate is perhaps legitimate, perhaps not. However, the problem is that Walker has attempted to subvert the normal WI process.

[thegreekdog]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

A recent CBS poll showed the MAJORITY of Americans would rather pay more taxes than have services cut.

Since when do you care about what a majority of people think? A majority of people in Wisconsin think Governor Walker is doing a good job, yet you don't seem to put an credence in that.

[Woodruff]

Have the states that have already eliminated collective bargaining and other union rights for teachers really done that much better?

In point of fact, the five states that have eliminated collective bargaining for teachers currently have the five lowest places among states education.

A point of fact, Since the inception of the "Department of Education" in 1979, our countries children have continued to score lower in comparison to other countries.

Were you just unable to fight off the urge to post an irrelevant piece of information, or was there something about your statement that you felt either countered or supported mine?

[Woodruff]

Less Government agencies good. More Government agencies bad.

Even more vague. The more Symmetry asks for specifics, the more vague you get. I don't really understand why that is.

[Woodruff]

What happened to the whole "one individual does not represent the group?" Or does that only apply to the Tea Party?

Of COURSE it only applies to the groups that Phatscotty wants it to apply to. Are you new here?

[Woodruff]

Even more importantly, a private union has a vested interest in making sure their wages/benefits don't cause the company to go bankrupt (unless you're the UAW) because then they'd also lose their jobs. However, a public union doesn't care how much those things cost because they can always make the public pay whatever they want.

A public union can always make the public pay whatever they want! So THAT'S why teachers are so fucking bloody rich. I always wondered why that was the case.

Do you even THINK before you engage your fingers on the keyboard?

Each member of the private sector pays for their own benefits while also contributing 5-10% of their income to pay for public employee benefits. It's outright theft.

Theft? You take a reasonable stance and make it sound stupid.

When the unions have had sympathetic (read bribed) Democrats in office like they have had in Wisconsin, of course they have made off well. Wisconsin teachers on average make the same wages as others, yet they make 4 times the amount in benefits, while paying hardly anything into those benefits. That's one reason how they're bankrupting the state and must be reformed.

And yet, your statement above is a general one, not relating to Wisconsin...as if all public unions are just rolling in money unremittingly.

Ok, if it's not theft, it's the worst form of greed.

You're ok with corporations being able to pay off politicians...but not unions. Why the difference?

To think that people who pay a large amount of their income for their own benefits must now also pitch in so government employees have to pay far less for their benefits is disgusting. It's wealth redistribution and political payoffs at its worst.

But why doesn't that logic apply to corporation leadership?

[Night Strike]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

A recent CBS poll showed the MAJORITY of Americans would rather pay more taxes than have services cut.

Since when do you care about what a majority of people think? A majority of people in Wisconsin think Governor Walker is doing a good job, yet you don't seem to put an credence in that.

And what the majority of people think on the health care law.

To think that people who pay a large amount of their income for their own benefits must now also pitch in so government employees have to pay far less for their benefits is disgusting. It's wealth redistribution and political payoffs at its worst.

But why doesn't that logic apply to corporation leadership?

Because corporations have earned their money. Unions require membership (in 28 states) and force those members to pay dues, regardless of their political beliefs. Unions take money from their members while corporations earn their money.

[PopeBenXVI]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

Feel free to respond to all my previous postings then too.

As I said, if you want to pay higher taxes then no one is stopping you from writtng the check right now. Just don't infringe on my taxpayer rights to call you stupid

[PopeBenXVI]

Lets have a law that anyone who says they are ok with paying more taxes will then be taxed more and everyone else can keep the money they earn. You should just write out a check and send it in with a memo saying " Gift for public employee pension" since you are so passionate about their "underpaid" positions. I promise I wont stop you. You are so giving. Almost as giving as the unions to the Democrat party.

I have no idea why you quoted her since you didn't respond to anything that she said. You just talked about whatever popped into your head...

And I'm an American, and I have no problem paying more in taxes if it helps out other Americans. I only have a problem with waste. And I'm in Illinois.

A recent CBS poll showed the MAJORITY of Americans would rather pay more taxes than have services cut.

Walker was not proposing to cut anything, only to have them pay more for their own pensions and healthcare. Nice try though

[PopeBenXVI]

See, at the same time he is cutting unions (NOT expenses.. note the unions already agreed to the expense cuts!), he is also offering corporations a tax cut (according to several interviews I heard from the absentee legislators).

If he doesn't cut the unions now when people realize how luxury benefit packages are unsustainable, those cuts that are put in place now will just be forgotten when times get better.

Hmm, and here I thought you were in favor of the democratic process? If Democrats get elected, then it will be because people have had enough of the ones in office now.

AND, the real truth is that people don't consider unions "unsustainable". Some do, but not a majority. In fact, a majority of people (according to a recent CBS poll, some other polls) are OK with some increase in taxes to preserve benefits. Almost NONE see eradicating unions as the solution here.

BUT, you ignored the real point. As I said above, this is an EMERGENCY spending bill. For him to take this action on that kind of bill is wrong.

The other debate is perhaps legitimate, perhaps not. However, the problem is that Walker has attempted to subvert the normal WI process.

And leaving the state to avoid a vote subverts nothing?

[Woodruff]

No, you have completely missed my point. Why do these parents not have alternate care for their children in these situations? It's not at all difficult to find, as I know from personal experience. This ain't fucking rocket science. These families are just as affected by their own poor planning as they are by the walkout.

OK, as much as I agree with your general point, this is just not true everywhere.

I am doing childcare specifically because I could not find anyone to take my son. It can be especially hard to get occasional fulltime care for school age kids. Providers naturally want someone fulltime. Part-time spaces are more limited. When open, they may have space after school, but not during school. Many providers go ahead and take the kids anyway, figuring that they are unlikely to get inspected (pretty true).

Also, there is the cost. The going rate around here is $20-30 for regular (non emergency) care. If you are only earning $64, even $72 a day before taxes, that does not leave one much. Not everyone has friends or family upon whom they can rely.

I am not at all talking about paying someone. I absolutely am talking about relying on a friend or family for the occasionally unexpected circumstance. If there TRULY is nobody that someone can rely on in an emergency to avoid having to take off from work, I can only say...you should work on building some friendships. (Not YOU you...you know what I mean.)

[Woodruff]

As I understand employment, most people are, in fact, in it for the money (at least for the most part).

Although I do like my job (there's nothing better than helping large corporations not pay taxes), I am employed for the salaries and benefits. I suspect that teachers might be employed for the same reason and it is no state secret that they want more loot and better benefits. The questions are whether they are entitled to those benefits now that the Republicans are in control of government in Wisconsin (to paraphrase President Obama, "We won, deal with it.") and whether they are entitled to collectively bargain for items other than salary in the future (to prevent a repeat of the current situation).

Only that the teachers are always publicly saying it's for the kids and that kids come first. Call me old fashioned but that sounds like a lie here.

They became teachers for the kids and the kids come first when you're talking about classroom-related issues. But if you believe that teachers are in the profession solely for the wellbeing and good of the populace at large and that money is not an issue at all, then surely you must also believe that corporations would never deliberately do anything to harm people or the environment. Actually, now that I think about it, I suspect you probably do believe that.