Post Any Evidence For God Here

[crispybits]

OK, so you're upset that Christians supposedly impose their beliefs on you.
Question: When catholic priests molest children, do you get angry at God?
Looking at man to get an accurate representation of God is pretty much always futile.

It's pretty hard to be angry at something that I don't believe exists...

And yes, Christians impose their beliefs on the entire world. To repeat an example stem cell research is the number one most promising thing we have for curing a whole range of diseases such as cancer, Parkinsons, MS, spinal cord diseases (the list goes on and on) and yet the christian right in America has stopped one of the world's most advanced technological powerbases from working on it, and the reasons they give are purely religious, that an embryo has a soul and is therefore sacrosanct. Thankfully there are other cultures which are taking up that line of research such as Japan, but the bio-research industry has a significant percentage of it's resources worldwide in the USA and so effectively the christian right in America is harming the entire world because of their religious beliefs. It's entirely possible we could have a cure for cancer or MS already, and thousands or millions of lives could be being saved, but religious belief imposed beyond personal limits onto society as a whole has stopped that happening.

[crispybits]

From the free will thread - the background is talking about whether "Is there a God?" is an answerable question

OK, well in the same way I've showed, from existing technological/scientific ability and taking only reasonable baby steps, that real time full brain scanning on an individual neuron level with interpretative coding to show decisions before we are concious of them (or not) is within the realms of possibility, can you do the same for the question "Is there a God?"

That's also not the only question I think is probably unfalsifiable by the way (and the probably is a fairly important semantic point)

we can demonstrate what happened when the universe was less than a second old. we are finding particles that make up the fabric of the universe. i don't think it's a huge leap from there to find out what initiated our universe in the first place.

What would God look like in this instance? I'm trying to work out what result of looking at the early physics of the universe would be that would reveal God as a fact and I'm genuinely struggling to see where you're going with this.

[mrswdk]

Preventing stem cell research doesn't produce any significant negative externalities, it just precludes possible discoveries that might have resulted from said research. No one is having their suffering increased by opposition to stem cell research.

I would also argue that protesting an issue on the grounds that it offends your religious beliefs is fair enough. People are free to protest and campaign about their moral or political beliefs, so why not their religious beliefs too?

[BigBallinStalin]

Preventing stem cell research doesn't produce any significant negative externalities, it just precludes possible discoveries that might have resulted from said research. No one is having their suffering increased by opposition to stem cell research.

I would also argue that protesting an issue on the grounds that it offends your religious beliefs is fair enough. People are free to protest and campaign about their moral or political beliefs, so why not their religious beliefs too?

Suppose only you had the power to save 10 people, and a religious person completely prevented you from doing so.

Did the actions of that religious person prevent you from saving 10 people? Yes.

Then, has anyone suffered because of those actions? Yes, obviously. (the 10 people died because you were prevented from helping them).

So, by analogy, the underlined is incorrect.

[universalchiro]

He certainly ignored countless billions who lived in prehistoric times..

Chang,
I see your premise, but your inference is wrong and here's why:
Romans 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Summary: Even if someone has not heard of God from a missionary or read the Bible, they are without excuse for rejecting God. For He has revealed Himself in His creation. The result of rejecting God only stores up wrath for yourself and then when His judgment comes, don't go blaming Him for judging non-believers when it's themselves storing up wrath for themselves. God's judgment comes in two-fold: temporally on earth; i.e. loss of job, poor health, early death, angry countenance, loss of purpose of why living, etc. The other portion is Eternally; i.e. cast into eternal lake of fire with gnashing of teeth, wailing in pain and in darkness, without the ability to die with an eternal body in hell.

The choice is yours, but know that non-believers throughout all of mankind are without excuse.

But how PRECISELY did YOUR God make things plain to prehistoric people,say 200,000 years ago?Even if they were awed by nature/ creation,although terrified seems more plausible,how could they ascertain who they should worship and how?Would they even have sufficient time after the never-ending daily struggle to consider abstract concepts such as deities?Wouldn't they be more concerned about just finding enough food to subsist?

Valid questions.
How did God make Himself plain to people. I don't buy into the 200,000 years ago part, but the concept is this:
God appeared in the flesh to the first man and woman (Adam and Eve). He instructed them by saying (Genesis 1:29) "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;"
Genesis 3 Adam and Eve heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden, Then the LORD God called to Adam...
#1: God in the flesh appeared and spoke with Adam and Eve telling them how to worship and what was good or bad.
#2: God also appeared to many people throughout the Bible.
#3: God performed miracles with a voice from heaven. Moses and the deliverance out of Egypt authenticating His presence.
#4: God gave us his Word that stands the test of time, infallible and inerrant with 2,000+ fulfilled prophecies establishing His identity to those who haven't seen Him.

"never ending daily struggle to get food": We disagree here: For God declared all that He made to be very good (Genesis 1:31) And on the 7th day He declared it was complete. Which is to say lacking nothing. With no sin in the world, food was plentiful, mankind didn't have to work hard to get food. Look at the words of the curse once mankind did sin: "Cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you will eat of it all the days of you life, both thorns and thistle is shall grow for you; and you will earth the plants of the field by the sweat of your face you will eat bread." So after the sin, it became hard to forage for food, prior to, food was plentiful without thorns, without thistles.

#5: He made mankind in His image. Unique from all other creatures. No crossbreeding, it's not even possible. Why? it's sealed and cant happen. Mankind has unique characteristics wholly different form all other creatures. Why? We are created in His image. Genesis 1:27.

[_sabotage_]

He certainly ignored countless billions who lived in prehistoric times..

Chang,
I see your premise, but your inference is wrong and here's why:
Romans 1:18 "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Summary: Even if someone has not heard of God from a missionary or read the Bible, they are without excuse for rejecting God. For He has revealed Himself in His creation. The result of rejecting God only stores up wrath for yourself and then when His judgment comes, don't go blaming Him for judging non-believers when it's themselves storing up wrath for themselves. God's judgment comes in two-fold: temporally on earth; i.e. loss of job, poor health, early death, angry countenance, loss of purpose of why living, etc. The other portion is Eternally; i.e. cast into eternal lake of fire with gnashing of teeth, wailing in pain and in darkness, without the ability to die with an eternal body in hell.

The choice is yours, but know that non-believers throughout all of mankind are without excuse.

But how PRECISELY did YOUR God make things plain to prehistoric people,say 200,000 years ago?Even if they were awed by nature/ creation,although terrified seems more plausible,how could they ascertain who they should worship and how?Would they even have sufficient time after the never-ending daily struggle to consider abstract concepts such as deities?Wouldn't they be more concerned about just finding enough food to subsist?

Hunter/gatherers worked less than twenty hours a week.

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha, would you like to include more standards of well-being--other than hours worked per week?

[mrswdk]

I said no one experiences extra suffering because of stem cell research being hindered.

If you have terminal cancer, you're going to die. If some could possibly invent a cure for your terminal cancer, but doesn't due to their research being cut short, you will die in exactly the same way. Someone who has cancer does not suffer more just because no one discovers a cure for their cancer.

If the Jesus crew ran into hospital, declared the cancer to be Satan manifest and thrust a scalpel into the patient's throat then yes, they are imposing suffering on others due to their beliefs. In the case of stem cell research, they are not.

[mrswdk]

Anyway, it's a theoretical problem in the first place. No one knows if diseases like cancer can be cured or not. You could just as equally get pissed that scientists have turned people into non-believers by rabidly pursuing their scientific method agenda, thus condemning their converted ex-theists to eternal damnation.

[crispybits]

Say you has a ridiculously bad toothache, one of those root canal infections that feel like someone is pressing a red hot branding iron into the side of your head. Now suppose that instead of allowing a dentist to treat that infection/decay and lessen your pain, a muslim or hindu or sikh came along and said "this treatment is against my religion, therefore you must simply continue to suffer as I will not allow anyone to perform the operation you need or to give you the medication you need." Of course they aren't causing you any EXTRA suffering, but that's not what I said. They are preventing the relief of suffering by imposing their religious faith onto you, when you do not share that faith, and neither does the dentist who is able to treat you.

And yes it's not known whether we can find cures for X, Y or Z conditions with stem cell research for sure, but thanks to a bunch of indoctrinated rednecks who think everyone should be bound by their religious rules by force of secular law, it will be a much, much longer time before we find out, and in the meantime the people suffering from anything stem cells could be curing will continue to suffer and die.

[mrswdk]

Like I said: what is the difference between allowing people's religious values to influence policy and allowing people's political values to influence policy?

[BigBallinStalin]

Depends on the political values. If you start with the normative position that a liberal society comes first--and with it, the political freedoms which follow, then it follows that religion can't hijack the political system. People should be free to follow whatever (reasonable enough) religion, but this doesn't grant them the excuse to force everyone else to abide by their particular religion's rules.


*By liberal, I'm talking about the real liberal who holds a belief in liberty and all that jazz and not the welfare liberal/progressivist with their ill-conceived means for promoting prosperity by redistribution.

[smegal69]

It's a miracle!!!! i have found God, and here i was thinking you only found Jesus in a grilled cheese sandwich

[Sapient]

Poor Dinosaurs.

[GeneralMao]

Post evidence god doesn't exist. You can't either. End of thread.

[Sapient]

Post evidence god doesn't exist. You can't either. End of thread.

You can't prove that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist, therefore...!

[chang50]

Post evidence god doesn't exist. You can't either. End of thread.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim,God is only one of millions of things I don't believe in,you can't reasonably expect anyone to post evidence for all of them in one lifetime.

[BigBallinStalin]

Post evidence god doesn't exist. You can't either. End of thread.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the positive claim,God is only one of millions of things I don't believe in,you can't reasonably expect anyone to post evidence for all of them in one lifetime.

Well I expect it! So get busy!

[Ray Rider]

Depends on the political values. If you start with the normative position that a liberal society comes first--and with it, the political freedoms which follow, then it follows that religion can't hijack the political system. People should be free to follow whatever (reasonable enough) religion, but this doesn't grant them the excuse to force everyone else to abide by their particular religion's rules.


*By liberal, I'm talking about the real liberal who holds a belief in liberty and all that jazz and not the welfare liberal/progressivist with their ill-conceived means for promoting prosperity by redistribution.

It's interesting to trace back the roots of our modern liberal, free societies. This from Dan Hannan, Member of the European Parliament, in his most recent article on The Telegraph:

On November 19, 1863, at the Soldiers’ National Cemetery in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, President Abraham Lincoln, weak and lightheaded with an oncoming case of smallpox, made a speech that lasted for just over two minutes, and ended with his hope “that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

Those words have been quoted ever since as the supreme vindication of representative government. Indeed, they are often quoted as proof of American exceptionalism. But the words were not Lincoln’s. Most of his hearers would have recognised their source, as our generation typically does not. They came from the prologue to what was probably the earliest translation of the Bible into the English language: “This Bible is for the government of the people, for the people and by the people.” The author was the theologian John Wycliffe, sometimes called “the Morning Star of the Reformation.” Astonishingly, they had first appeared in 1384.
...
One of their [the Lollards] ideas, though, has survived to this day, namely the notion that freedom of conscience is inseparable from civil liberty, and that personal responsibility in spiritual matters implies individualism in secular affairs. “Government of the people, by the people, for the people”: in what other language would those words have been written – in what other tongue could they have been verbalised – in 1384?

What was it that made English-speaking civilisation so different, even six-and-a-half centuries ago?

[nietzsche]

[universalchiro]

Dinosaurs made it on the Noah's Ark. 1 male and 1 female of every kind. That includes dinosaurs. And that explains why the book of Job, written after the flood by about 10 generations has dinosaurs in it. Job 40 and 41.
So where are the dinosaurs today? They are here, just much much smaller in size because gravity has increased from the flood and oxygen levels has decreased from the flood. Both of those cut the life expectancy and dinosaurs are reptiles, they will grow as long as they live, so if you cut their life down from 1,000+ to 40 years, then they are not going to get big...

Gosh really hard to focus with that hot chick rubbing her breast as I type. LOL
That beautiful of a woman is proof enough of God. LOL

[Sapient]

Dinosaurs made it on the Noah's Ark. 1 male and 1 female of every kind. That includes dinosaurs. And that explains why the book of Job, written after the flood by about 10 generations has dinosaurs in it. Job 40 and 41.
So where are the dinosaurs today? They are here, just much much smaller in size because gravity has increased from the flood and oxygen levels has decreased from the flood. Both of those cut the life expectancy and dinosaurs are reptiles, they will grow as long as they live, so if you cut their life down from 1,000+ to 40 years, then they are not going to get big...

Gosh really hard to focus with that hot chick rubbing her breast as I type. LOL
That beautiful of a woman is proof enough of God. LOL

[Frigidus]

So where are the dinosaurs today? They are here, just much much smaller in size because gravity has increased from the flood and oxygen levels has decreased from the flood.

What species would you describe as the miniaturized version of, picking a species off the top of my head, the stegosaurus?

[mrswdk]

Horned lizards.

[smegal69]

Dinosaurs made it on the Noah's Ark. 1 male and 1 female of every kind. That includes dinosaurs. And that explains why the book of Job, written after the flood by about 10 generations has dinosaurs in it. Job 40 and 41.
So where are the dinosaurs today? They are here, just much much smaller in size because gravity has increased from the flood and oxygen levels has decreased from the flood. Both of those cut the life expectancy and dinosaurs are reptiles, they will grow as long as they live, so if you cut their life down from 1,000+ to 40 years, then they are not going to get big...

Gosh really hard to focus with that hot chick rubbing her breast as I type. LOL
That beautiful of a woman is proof enough of God. LOL

I'm a bit slow, but can someone tell me HOW has it increased since the flood? did it increase after to world went from flat to round?

did he take 2 crocodiles on board? why could they have just not swam? if he did take 2 of them on board, what happen to the rest of them? did they drown?

That beautiful of a woman is proof enough of God...... argh No, sorry. but we are like all other animals, all we care about when you break it down is Food, Shelter and Sex.
So all that proves is we like Sex appeal and we would like to reproduce with her