ObamaCare - exchanges ,report your states options!

[Lootifer]

Where as we've had that pesky government meddling in Educ/HC for ever and we seem to do fine...

[Phatscotty]

How do you know that healthcare isn't a right?
You weren't born with a voting ballot in your hand either.

Because it can't be a right. For healthcare to exist, you have to have wealth.

This is true for everything you consider to be a right as well.

no it is not!!!!!!!! Not even close! Do I need wealth to be born?

Yes.

AND healthcare

How were people born in 1200 BC???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Lootifer]

With a mortality rate of neigh on 25% iirc.

[Phatscotty]

Where as we've had that pesky government meddling in Educ/HC for ever and we seem to do fine...

Great, glad to hear it. Please appreciate and acknowledge that you don't have a bunch of obsessed jackasses who do not even live in your country bickering and complaining to you everyday, trying to control how you and your countrymen live your lives.

[Phatscotty]

With a mortality rate of neigh on 25% iirc.

That does not make it a right.
Geezus, where the hell do you people come from? Mind your own business already! wtf?

[Lootifer]

Great, glad to hear it. Please appreciate and acknowledge that you don't have a bunch of obsessed jackasses who do not even live in your country bickering and complaining to you everyday, trying to control how you and your countrymen live your lives.

Thanks. Maturity level flying high as always eh?

And you chose to open the discussion on an international forum PS.

Internationally there are many many data points that point to government supplied healthcare (and education) being far superior to the American pseudo-freedom model (I say pseudo because the insurance model is kinda like a stunted hybrid in my opinion).

While I am well aware you guys can do whatever the f*ck you like; doesnt bother me. But theres no denying that your freedom is leading to poorer healthcare; especially for those who are poor.

[Symmetry]

Where as we've had that pesky government meddling in Educ/HC for ever and we seem to do fine...

Great, glad to hear it. Please appreciate and acknowledge that you don't have a bunch of obsessed jackasses who do not even live in your country bickering and complaining to you everyday, trying to control how you and your countrymen live your lives.

Kind of a sign that you're doing something wrong and not willing to admit it though, isn't it?

[WILLIAMS5232]

You need wealth to buy a gun, yet you have the right to bear arms.

but you are not forced to buy one.....nor are you fined if you don't have one....

cmon man

Yeah but none of this is to say that Healthcare is more or less a legitimate "right." You haven't shown what the criteria is to determine a right. I'm just poking and prodding here.

I fail to understand how this bill is trampling on some other "right" that is more.... more... uh... more important than the right to life.

I guess my main point was going to be that every right that we claim to enjoy as Americans was taken; none of it was given to us before 1776. Women didn't even have the right to vote until recently. How do you know that you're not just stuck in the dark ages. Ya know?

It shouldn't have anything to do with healthcare, except for people started one day claiming that healthcare is a right, and that somehow gives them to right to infringe on everyone else's rights and property....

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

i guess, if you're so unmotivated, then i can see how you think you deserve to get it for nothing.
because there are so many that think this way, and it causes politicians to campaign for your vote.
now, before you start screaming about the children and the terminally ill. if the people that were able to get it, were not given it for free, and instead made to earn it. there would be very few cases of people that actually have a case about not being able to get it or not, and then, there would be no problem about giving it to the people that seriously can't get it. for all the others, i'm not buying the "can't find a job bit". because i know i can quit mine today, and have another one lined up at the end of the week. if that's not the case for you, then you're in the wrong proffession. let's just pretend i'm not lying. ( because i'm not. ). now, if you were to say... make people do 40 hours community service for heathcare, how many would actually do it. lets say the same for unemployment. why does anyone want to live in a society that promotes self pity?

if you were to implement very strict regulations on receiveing healthcare for those that are unable to take care of themselves... i'd have no beef. but that will never happen. so i'm always going to be just a cold hearted p.o.s in your eyes.

do you know what it is to enable someone? if so, do you know how long that can go on for?

show: awnser

[Lootifer]

I wouldnt call you a pos Will; i'd just say you dont have much of a social conscience, which is fine; your choice.

I am a high earner btw, and I am more than happy paying effectively 30-40% tax for social projects; even if they are slightly less efficient in terms of pure economic theory.

[Phatscotty]

Where as we've had that pesky government meddling in Educ/HC for ever and we seem to do fine...

Great, glad to hear it. Please appreciate and acknowledge that you don't have a bunch of obsessed jackasses who do not even live in your country bickering and complaining to you everyday, trying to control how you and your countrymen live your lives.

Kind of a sign that you're doing something wrong and not willing to admit it though, isn't it?

Not at all. It's only wrong if you think values of other countries should supercede the value system of America. The moment you stop implying foreign values on my country is the moment you will realize how perverse it was to try to judge America by non-American values, such as equality of wealth and materialism. Here, we believe in equality at birth. After that it's up to you. It's called Freedom. I understand that there is not a 100% success rate, but I do not understand why you think there ever could be, or the fact that 100% of people do not succeed is a legitimate counter. History shows it has gotten us farther and done better than anyone else. Kind of a sign that we did something right. We are a free country Symm. I have to conclude you just do not understand what that means. Luckily, you are not an American, so you don't have to bother yourself with such questions. But you just want to bash anyways so I'm sure your confusion will continue, probably forever

I still don't understand why foreigners care so much. It truly is bizarre

[Symmetry]

Dunno about 'merica but the rest of the world tends to see healthcare as a universal right.

And to me, rightly so; along with education.

i guess, if you're so unmotivated, then i can see how you think you deserve to get it for nothing.
because there are so many that think this way, and it causes politicians to campaign for your vote.
now, before you start screaming about the children and the terminally ill. if the people that were able to get it, were not given it for free, and instead made to earn it. there would be very few cases of people that actually have a case about not being able to get it or not, and then, there would be no problem about giving it to the people that seriously can't get it. for all the others, i'm not buying the "can't find a job bit". because i know i can quit mine today, and have another one lined up at the end of the week. if that's not the case for you, then you're in the wrong proffession. let's just pretend i'm not lying. ( because i'm not. ). now, if you were to say... make people do 40 hours community service for heathcare, how many would actually do it. lets say the same for unemployment. why does anyone want to live in a society that promotes self pity?

if you were to implement very strict regulations on receiveing healthcare for those that are unable to take care of themselves... i'd have no beef. but that will never happen. so i'm always going to be just a cold hearted p.o.s in your eyes.

do you know what it is to enable someone? if so, do you know how long that can go on for?

show: awnser

No screaming, you just come across as an idiot. I hope that's not a big thing, and I mean no slander on your education level, but if you had a teacher, I suspect that they would tell you something similar if you presented them with a piece of prose like that, no matter the subject.

Anyway- I just wanted to ask if this was a parody post. I really can't tell.

[Lootifer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_F ... ual_Report

Uh oh....

(My point: NZ is far more economically free than the US; I work in economics at the edge of private and public goods provisioning; therefore I would have thought I was in a fairly useful piosition in terms of random international internet discussion on public/private allocation of good and services)

[Symmetry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World#2011_Annual_Report

Uh oh....

Those findings weren't made by the GOP at all, and they involve foreigners. How that can be even taken into account is likely to prove baffling. Or it'll be ignored.

[Phatscotty]

Great, glad to hear it. Please appreciate and acknowledge that you don't have a bunch of obsessed jackasses who do not even live in your country bickering and complaining to you everyday, trying to control how you and your countrymen live your lives.

Thanks. Maturity level flying high as always eh?

And you chose to open the discussion on an international forum PS.

Internationally there are many many data points that point to government supplied healthcare (and education) being far superior to the American pseudo-freedom model (I say pseudo because the insurance model is kinda like a stunted hybrid in my opinion).

While I am well aware you guys can do whatever the f*ck you like; doesnt bother me. But theres no denying that your freedom is leading to poorer healthcare; especially for those who are poor.

There is denying. The reason healthcare is becoming less available to the poor is because government interference has priced them out. Everytime Medicaid is supposed to re-imburse a hospital for 100$, medicaid gives the hospital 60$. The hospital has to make up that 40$ on someone else, and there is an extremely simple and honest example of how government is what drove up the prices, not freedom lol.

Back before there was gov't control and interference and trillion dollar entitelement programs, one working man, working one normal job, could provide healthcare for himself, his wife, and all 11 of his kids. Healthcare was dirt cheap. Healthcare was 100% a free market, and we let free markets do what it is free markets do best. expand availability and decrease prices. The government is where shortages and increased prices reside, and that is a fact.

and another thing to consider. Do you agree that inflation is a hidden tax on the poor? Try plugging in our true inflation rate, which is fueled by our borrowing, into the cost of healthcare, which is one of the only 2 sectors that increase double digits in inflation every year. How does that affect the poor? Oh, and the only other sector that has double digit inflation every single year is education. Noticing a pattern yet?????????????????????????????????????

[Symmetry]

Ignored then.

[Lootifer]

Of course inflation hurts the poor more than the wealthy. Of course the US government needs to cut spending and increase revenue. Of course currently government involvement in healthcare is fucked up. I have never disagreed with any of these points.

Where I disagree is the "freedom will fix it" argument.

How will a more laissez-faire healthcare system improve upon status quo for those at the bottom of the heap?

And f*ck off BBS; let Scotty answer this one himself. Sick of you bailing him out. (pun intended)

[Phatscotty]

Of course inflation hurts the poor more than the wealthy. Of course the US government needs to cut spending and increase revenue. Of course currently government involvement in healthcare is fucked up. I have never disagreed with any of these points.

Where I disagree is the "freedom will fix it" argument.

How will a more laissez-faire healthcare system improve upon status quo for those at the bottom of the heap?

okay! well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We aren't getting a hold on inflation. We are giving inflation the green light!
We aren't cutting spending. We are spending 1-2 trillion dollars more than we have every single year!
We aren't increasing revenues. We pumped trillions of stimulus into our economy, and we are at a standstill and a 50-50 chance we are going to double dip recession, which will shrink revenues a lot more. And now we have to start paying interest on what we borrowed for the stimulus, which cuts into our ability to spend today. That's why they called THE stimulus "doubling down". Just don't forget, if the dealer wins the hand, the dealer takes your chips.

I have never said freedom will fix it. I have always said freedom will do better, and specifically free market approach. Currently, we are running as far away from the free market model as fast as we can! and we turn more and more to government every year for the last 40 years, then why is HC getting worse and worse? Because government cannot fix the problem....GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM!

How will a more free healthcare system improve the status quo for those who cannot afford healthcare? Well, number one, is it out of the question to seek to improve those at the bottom of the heap? Isn't that the root of the problem? I'm not sure that re-designing a system around poor people who cannot afford to be in the system will make healthcare better, and I can easily see how that would make it worse. For example, if a police officer is in charge of responding to a one square block radius, what do you think will happen to crime when the police department says the officer has to cover 4 square blocks? response time will be worse, and crime will rise. Same with asking a teacher who has 20 students and then you ask them to take on 35 students. Same thing with healthcare when the gov't floods 30 million people into the system who cannot afford to be there. It might be slightly better for the poor people, at first, but its going to ruin healthcare as a whole, for everyone.

Our concern should be making our healthcare sector more stable, more available, and keeping it open for business. Yes we need to be concerned about poor people too, but the cart has to come behind the horse, not in front of it.

[Symmetry]

Yes we need to be concerned about poor people too, but the cart has to come behind the horse, not in front of it.

If you went universal healthcare you might not need horses to pull or push your ambulances. There is a third way.

[Phatscotty]

Yes we need to be concerned about poor people too, but the cart has to come behind the horse, not in front of it.

If you went universal healthcare you might not need horses to pull or push your ambulances. There is a third way.

What that means is something has to be produced before it can be consumed. If you have never heard about the cart and horse, well, that's what it means.

[Symmetry]

Yes we need to be concerned about poor people too, but the cart has to come behind the horse, not in front of it.

If you went universal healthcare you might not need horses to pull or push your ambulances. There is a third way.

What that means is something has to be produced before it can be consumed. If you have never heard about the cart and horse, well, that's what it means.

We have ambulances, they're kind of like carts and horses, but it doesn't matter so much about whether you think that one political party is putting the horse first, or the other party is putting the horse second.

[saxitoxin]

I APOLOGIZE FOR NOT RESPONDING SOONER, HOWEVER, I ONLY VISIT THIS THREAD EVERY 5 DAYS AS I AM GETTING CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME FAST-SCROLLING THROUGH THE GALLERY OF PICTURES AND VIDEOS BEING POSTED

And now, my comments ...

This year, more people are insured, thanks to the health care reform act.

Again, nope.

Census data. Census data. You can refute it, but that is what the data shows.

But, see, you don't have census data. Making up some numbers and yelling "CENSUS DATA!" in the air three times doesn't mean the census has any such data. Until then, my link (which you edited out) from the Huffington Post, stands: more Americans are uninsured this year than last.

Remember: every single thing Player says has been conjured out of thin air. There's zero basis in reality for any of it. She arrives at a conclusion and assumes the facts must exist somewhere to support that conclusion so fills in the blanks. Psychologically, she isn't even aware what she's doing so should be handled gently, like a child or a retarded person.

I did provide the source.

Nope. Another fabrication. Here - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93718&start=3675#p3806054.

You said "the Census showed" and provided no link.

Remember the time when you said "academics agree" and, after I finally haraunged you for 7 pages, you provided a link to a 1998 undergraduate paper of some sophomore college student?

Your history here is such that we need to assume - in the absence of a link - everything you say is made-up. When data exists, it's easy to provide a link to that data. However, when someone asks you for a link, it always turns into a big production number that drags on for pages and, invariably, ends up with you loudly declaring one of your kids pooped himself and you suddenly can't write anymore and must quickly depart ... us still waiting on a link.

[patches70]

Where as we've had that pesky government meddling in Educ/HC for ever and we seem to do fine...

Ahh, New Zealand. I like the kiwis, decent people it seems to me. I know one or two, not saying that all kiwis are the same as the few I know, but just sayin' is all.

Anyway, NZ was in a bad state not too long ago. Not sure how old you are, if you're young then you won't remember or have experienced. Back in the 60's, 70's and 80's.

NZ's economy was in a tailspin. I mean like youth suicide rates grown at the highest rates in the developed world, rise in violent crime, high poverty levels between '89-'92, an economy that grew 7 times slower than the other OCED nations. Between '84-'93 average inflation was in excess of 9% (that's bad BTW), credit rating lowered twice, foreign debt exploded and unemployment rates hitting 11% through '86-'93. Just sickening.

The reasons of course, was NZ was a one act nation. You exported dairy products. Lots of it. The prices of dairy tanked and the NZ economy tanked with it leading to all those problems.

What did the NZ government do? Deregulated big time. Turned over government run enterprises to private sources. Ended subsidies. Got away from protectionist market practices. Eased import restrictions, exchange rates freely floated, removed wage and price controls, lowered marginal tax rates, lowered taxes period. To get the inflation under control NZ tightened the government spending money belt (inflation that hit 18% in '87, yikes!)

Now, there were negative effects of these policies, of course. In such things there are never any solutions, only trade offs. This is what people need to remember. Especially about this Obamacare. Few are understanding the tradeoffs associated for policies.

Today, NZ is one the the most business friendly nations in the world and have expanded exports from primarily dairy, to textiles, mining, food processing, machinery, tourism and (gulp) finance. This is a good thing, no single tank of any one can bring the whole economy down. Diversification, it's a good thing in economics.

Now, NZ still isn't completely perfect economic wise. NZ still spends about $15 billion more a year than it takes in. Debt to GDP is around 33%, probably do to the high amounts of welfare spending, IDK exactly why NZ spends so much. S&P and Fitch rate NZ "negative" in outlook. Moody's rates "stable" in outlook. Credit rating is at AA+, so borrowing isn't too expensive for NZ yet, but it's still costly.

A lot of NZ's manufacturing industries that relied on those subsidies and protective tariffs are now gone and manufacturing in general is trending down for NZ. Not a good thing IMO. Look at what the loss of manufacturing has done to the US....

If you were to look at Spain right now, you watch, people will be rioting soon enough there. Austerity for Spain which is now being dealt out on her people means (and remember, Spain is in a recession right now, keep that in mind)-
Sales tax jumped to 21%
3 point hike in the VAT tax (which is the increase the sales tax for the most part)
Cutting unemployment payments
Cutting civil service pay
New taxes on energy
Raising property taxes.

When all of this was announced, this very day in fact, the parliament booed and jeered (LOL, I would as well). The only thing Spain didn't mess with (yet) was pensions.
Spain's unemployment rate sits now at around 24%. Tax revenues dried up and are now under the giant thumb of the ECB. The Spanish people won't stand for it I'm wagering.

In the US, the overwhelming trend is more and more government control and push for more taxes. Obamacare is the biggest tax hike in the history of the US. That's a fact, the "rights" of it not withstanding at all, the cold reality is Obamacare is a freaking tax hike. And the big beneficiary of this massive tax hike? Insurance companies, big pharma. Just lovely....

Tradeoffs. That's what everything is. A tradeoff. Argue about what's a right, what isn't, it doesn't matter. Creating legal rights has consequences (and that's what healthcare is, a legal right, not a natural right, there is a difference). Those cheering and thinking obamacare is a good thing doesn't have a good grasp of what the trade off is going to be for it (IMO). Believe me, when the bill starts hitting people in the wallet, even the most inbreed country hick to the arrogant intellectual pompous ass is going to understand.....

The point is, and NZ is a good case in point, everything that government touches turns to shit. Not always out of a devious plan to do such, but more of a consequence of complicating things and spending money one cannot afford to spend.

NZ government got the hell out of the way and turned things around. It's not all perfect, it never can be, but at least NZ is sitting a lot better than they were since the commodity prices tanked in the '60's.

The US, she is gambling. The odds are not in her favor at all. Obamacare is just another straw on the camel's back. People don't care though, so long as they are benefiting. It won't be until a person feels the pain that they actual open their eyes and say- "Hey! Wait a minute....."

Wanna teach a person about pain? Then give it to them, that's the best teacher in the world. The average Joe in the US is going to feel the pain soon enough. I only hope we learn something in time instead of continuing bickering along partisan and propagandian lines, lies and nationalism (my <insert nation here> healthcare system is what the US should have!).

I mean sheesh, the EU believes healthcare is a "right" and has made it a legal right and now look at them. Trade offs. Ask the Greeks, ask the Spanish, ask Ireland, ask Italy, ask France in six months, was it worth it? Did you consider the consequences? Did you understand the trade offs?

Well, Europe, that's the pain you get for putting yourselves under the thumb of an all powerful CB and the corporations that grow up around them. The rest of the world should take a good look and learn before the same lesson is taught to us as well if it's not already too late....

[WILLIAMS5232]

No screaming, you just come across as an idiot. I hope that's not a big thing, and I mean no slander on your education level, but if you had a teacher, I suspect that they would tell you something similar if you presented them with a piece of prose like that, no matter the subject.

Anyway- I just wanted to ask if this was a parody post. I really can't tell.

nope, it's not.

i'll take idiot. or whatever else you want to call me. we can only know what we think... or read.
past that, we'll never find the answer until it's too late to matter.

so hopefully you're right, free healthcare to the masses will create a supersociety eventually liberating all humans from dependance on themselves. creating a single organism that will function as a colony of ants or bees. how free we'll all feel and how great our rights shall be when that day comes.

[Symmetry]

No screaming, you just come across as an idiot. I hope that's not a big thing, and I mean no slander on your education level, but if you had a teacher, I suspect that they would tell you something similar if you presented them with a piece of prose like that, no matter the subject.

Anyway- I just wanted to ask if this was a parody post. I really can't tell.

nope, it's not.

i'll take idiot. or whatever else you want to call me. we can only know what we think... or read.
past that, we'll never find the answer until it's too late to matter.

so hopefully you're right, free healthcare to the masses will create a supersociety eventually liberating all humans from dependance on themselves. creating a single organism that will function as a colony of ants or bees. how free we'll all feel and how great our rights shall be when that day comes.

Yeah, I think most of us will be happy with going to a hospital when we're really sick, getting good treatment, and not bankrupting our families. Hopefully, of course, doesn't so much come into it so much. That's kind of how we live and look after each other.

It really isn't impossible dude. Someday, you too might even make that first step and work out how to use capital letters.

[DangerBoy]

Welcome to teh forumz, Williams. You probably already know this by now, but this is standard practice by Sym & Co. to go the marginalization route when challenged by those with opposing viewpoints.