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Is there a god?

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:11 am

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
You have stated several times IN THIS VERY THREAD that there is just as much of a possibility that God exists as that he does not. Yet, despite that claim of the possibility, you have presented zero proof of it. And yet, I posit the possibility that the initial mass of the universe has always existed, and you've made the statement that, in order to make that claim, I had better have proof. You can't have it both ways, John.


you're confusing possibility with certainty/belief.


No I'm not. Where did I say any such thing?

john9blue wrote:i agree that there is a possibility that the initial mass has always existed. that doesn't mean i believe it.
to justify your belief in that proposition, you need some kind of evidence.


How have you entirely missed the exact point I've been making for several posts now? Although since you snipped away the context, I suspect that you didn't miss it at all...

You are stating that in order to justify my belief in the initial mass always existing, I need some kind of evidence. AND YET, you have no evidence at all for justifying the belief that there is just as much a possibility of God. Why must I be required to show evidence for my belief yet you are not required to show evidence for your belief?

john9blue wrote:me saying that "god might or might not exist" is tautologous. why would i need evidence for a statement like that?


Either it is a belief or it is not. If you are requiring evidence for one belief, then you must require evidence for all beliefs, else you are a hypocrite. Oh right, I forgot who I was speaking with.

john9blue wrote:
Woodruff wrote:SCIENTISTS (not ATHEISTS) recognize that "proof" is an impossible concept to achieve. We don't even have PROOF of the mechanics of gravity. We simply have a theory.


fine, change "proof" to "evidence" and reread.


I have no idea what the context for this is any longer.
Last edited by Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:14 am

Aradhus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:He says if you don't want anything to do with him, then you wouldn't be reading/posting in this thread.


I wasn't reading this thread, I was reading a phatscotty post, as I have a program set up that I get a ping and a little message alerting me that Phatscotty has made a new post.


Ah, so you're a masochist then.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby natty dread on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:14 am

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Re: Is there a god?

Postby everywhere116 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:16 am

Woodruff wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:He says if you don't want anything to do with him, then you wouldn't be reading/posting in this thread.


I wasn't reading this thread, I was reading a phatscotty post, as I have a program set up that I get a ping and a little message alerting me that Phatscotty has made a new post.


Ah, so you're a masochist then.
Why would he even want to do such a thing?
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:16 am

PROFITS wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:Beginning = Big Bang


Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?

Indeed. It's irrelevant anyway, since the positive energy (along with the positive mass due to mass-energy equivilancy) added to the negative energy stored in space add up to zero.

This is a great video of Stephen Hawking explaining this concept and many others that make God unnecessary. This concept is explored at around the 25 minute mark.


I find it funny how he insinuates for us to choose between God and the laws of physics as if they were necessarily in mutual conflict.


He doesn't do any such thing. He suggests that God isn't NECESSARY. That doesn't state that God doesn't exist, nor does it state that a choice must be made between God and science. He states that it shows that God doesn't HAVE TO BE.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:38 am

Woodruff wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Why must that initial mass have been created?

Indeed. It's irrelevant anyway, since the positive energy (along with the positive mass due to mass-energy equivilancy) added to the negative energy stored in space add up to zero.

This is a great video of Stephen Hawking explaining this concept and many others that make God unnecessary. This concept is explored at around the 25 minute mark.


I find it funny how he insinuates for us to choose between God and the laws of physics as if they were necessarily in mutual conflict.


He doesn't do any such thing. He suggests that God isn't NECESSARY. That doesn't state that God doesn't exist, nor does it state that a choice must be made between God and science. He states that it shows that God doesn't HAVE TO BE.

Actually, although Stephen Hawkins is often trotted out as an atheist proponent, its more true to say he felt EVERYTHING should be questioned.. and too often God just wasn't.

Those who knew him best all say they don't really know if he believed in God or not.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:40 am

Aradhus wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
And, many people have attempted to disprove my religion.. ALL have failed miserably.



Your religion is retarded. .

Yeah, this is always the way to begin a logical, scientific argument.

Pretty much speaks for itself. I never say anyone has to accept what I believe, but to dismiss it because you simply dislike it or don't agree is the height of arrogance and, well, stupidity.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby everywhere116 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:41 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PROFITS wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Why must that initial mass have been created?

Indeed. It's irrelevant anyway, since the positive energy (along with the positive mass due to mass-energy equivilancy) added to the negative energy stored in space add up to zero.

This is a great video of Stephen Hawking explaining this concept and many others that make God unnecessary. This concept is explored at around the 25 minute mark.


I find it funny how he insinuates for us to choose between God and the laws of physics as if they were necessarily in mutual conflict.


He doesn't do any such thing. He suggests that God isn't NECESSARY. That doesn't state that God doesn't exist, nor does it state that a choice must be made between God and science. He states that it shows that God doesn't HAVE TO BE.

Actually, although Stephen Hawkins is often trotted out as an atheist proponent, its more true to say he felt EVERYTHING should be questioned.. and too often God just wasn't.

Those who knew him best all say they don't really know if he believed in God or not.

Well, you can't really say that now.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby everywhere116 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:42 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
And, many people have attempted to disprove my religion.. ALL have failed miserably.



Your religion is retarded. .

Yeah, this is always the way to begin a logical, scientific argument.

Pretty much speaks for itself. I never say anyone has to accept what I believe, but to dismiss it because you simply dislike it or don't agree is the height of arrogance and, well, stupidity.

I haven't seen you claim to belong to a specific religion. What religion are you?
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:44 am

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:Beginning = Big Bang


Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?

I don't think it has to have been, but you have to offer some explanation of "before the Big Bang" to get to the original creation. I think I said that the closest humans have come to is the possibility that all time is concurrent. In truth, there might be something "else" out there that we are, as yet just not able to concieve.. never mind understand.

Anyone who pretends they have real answers about the origin of the universe, outside of ideas and belief, is just being unscientific and foolish.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:47 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:Beginning = Big Bang


Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?


I don't think it has to have been, but you have to offer some explanation of "before the Big Bang" to get to the original creation.


No I don't. If the initial mass has always been there, then THERE IS NO "original creation"...it's just always been. Period.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:49 am

everywhere116 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
And, many people have attempted to disprove my religion.. ALL have failed miserably.



Your religion is retarded. .

Yeah, this is always the way to begin a logical, scientific argument.

Pretty much speaks for itself. I never say anyone has to accept what I believe, but to dismiss it because you simply dislike it or don't agree is the height of arrogance and, well, stupidity.

I haven't seen you claim to belong to a specific religion. What religion are you?

Christian, Protestant since I don't accept the Pope (or other tenets of the Roman Catholic faith). Beyond that my beliefs don't necessarily match any particular church exactly, though I am a member of an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America congregation.

BUT.. my exact personal beliefs are irrelevant, except when someone proclaims they are "retarded", and truly does not even know what I actually do or do not believe.

My overall, basic point (as is that of many here on both sides of this) is that you just cannot prove whether God does or does not exist.. and attempts to claim either logical superiority or scientific superiority or just plain superiority in one belief or the other just indicates the speaker has a huge bias. That's normal, but unacceptable in a scientific argument.

I can hold to my beliefs very, very firmly. Yet.. I cannot prove them to another person readily and certainly not on the internet, so I am not going to try and claim I can do so. Too many here seem to think that becuase atheism is perhaps more modern, it must be superior. (essentially)
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:52 am

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:Beginning = Big Bang


Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?


I don't think it has to have been, but you have to offer some explanation of "before the Big Bang" to get to the original creation.


No I don't. If the initial mass has always been there, then THERE IS NO "original creation"...it's just always been. Period.

OK, correct. I should have watched my wording more carefull. My point was just that saying "Big Bang" is not "the" answer...even if you fully accept the theory. (and I do see it as being one of the most likely ideas we have today for how what we see around us, including via telescope, came to be) That there might not have even been an initial creation is just one more reason why its not "the" answer.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby everywhere116 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:40 pm

Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote:Beginning = Big Bang


Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?


I don't think it has to have been, but you have to offer some explanation of "before the Big Bang" to get to the original creation.


No I don't. If the initial mass has always been there, then THERE IS NO "original creation"...it's just always been. Period.

There is no "initial mass". The sum of the mass and energy in the universe adds up to zero and always has as far back as we can determine.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:57 pm

everywhere116 wrote: There is no "initial mass". The sum of the mass and energy in the universe adds up to zero and always has as far back as we can determine.

Key words: "As far back as we can determine".

Also, this is something not abysolutely proven, it is a theory. Given the time and lack of information about the period, a somewhat tenuous theory at that.

In other words (again) we don't really know what the beginning of the universe might have looked like, if there even was a beginning of our universe, if there is something outside of our universe (actually there like is), never mind being certain about its origin.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Aradhus on Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:35 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
Aradhus wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
And, many people have attempted to disprove my religion.. ALL have failed miserably.



Your religion is retarded. .

Yeah, this is always the way to begin a logical, scientific argument.

Pretty much speaks for itself. I never say anyone has to accept what I believe, but to dismiss it because you simply dislike it or don't agree is the height of arrogance and, well, stupidity.


Where did I claim that I was starting a scientific argument? I didn't. My post is about plausibility. Also, I would suggest that, for starters, the height of arrogance, and stupidity, is believing that your one species, out of millions of species, that inhabit one specific planet, out of trillions of planets, is somehow special and important to god without even knowing what other species might inhabit those trillions of planets. And what god might think of them.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby everywhere116 on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:02 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:
everywhere116 wrote: There is no "initial mass". The sum of the mass and energy in the universe adds up to zero and always has as far back as we can determine.

Key words: "As far back as we can determine".

Also, this is something not abysolutely proven, it is a theory. Given the time and lack of information about the period, a somewhat tenuous theory at that.

In other words (again) we don't really know what the beginning of the universe might have looked like, if there even was a beginning of our universe, if there is something outside of our universe (actually there like is), never mind being certain about its origin.
There is no reason to believe that there ever was any amount of total mass other than zero at any point in time. (Time being irrelevant before the big bang, since there is no time if there is nothing to compare it to. This was another point of the video.)

There is nothing in the universe that demands the existence of a god, and there is no reason to believe that the unknowns of today won't be solved with naturalistic explanations tomorrow, just as the unknowns of yesterday that were attributed to god/s have been explained with naturalistic explanations today.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:40 pm



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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:17 pm

everywhere116 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Nope, what created that initial mass?


Why must that initial mass have been created?


I don't think it has to have been, but you have to offer some explanation of "before the Big Bang" to get to the original creation.


No I don't. If the initial mass has always been there, then THERE IS NO "original creation"...it's just always been. Period.


There is no "initial mass".


Not necessarily, no...I agree. However, I was simply responding to PLAYER's question in a way that would, I hoped, make some sense as far as recognizing that creation of the system was not necessary..
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby pmchugh on Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:08 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Christian, Protestant since I don't accept the Pope (or other tenets of the Roman Catholic faith). Beyond that my beliefs don't necessarily match any particular church exactly, though I am a member of an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America congregation.


Do you believe the bible is the word of God?
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby Woodruff on Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:34 am

the carpet man wrote:is it not true that atheism is a belief system, in the same way as religions are?


If atheism is a religion, then all science facilities should be tax exempt.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby john9blue on Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:27 am

Woodruff wrote:
john9blue wrote:i agree that there is a possibility that the initial mass has always existed. that doesn't mean i believe it.
to justify your belief in that proposition, you need some kind of evidence.


How have you entirely missed the exact point I've been making for several posts now? Although since you snipped away the context, I suspect that you didn't miss it at all...

You are stating that in order to justify my belief in the initial mass always existing, I need some kind of evidence. AND YET, you have no evidence at all for justifying the belief that there is just as much a possibility of God. Why must I be required to show evidence for my belief yet you are not required to show evidence for your belief?


where did i ever say that my beliefs didn't require evidence? you either don't read my posts or you drastically misinterpret them

natty dread wrote:
john9blue wrote:but most religious people acknowledge that their beliefs require faith and that they don't have proof. atheists are the ones who don't have proof AND try to pretend like they don't need it. that's even worse.


Strawman argument against straw-atheists.


so what was wrong with what i said? do atheists have evidence of their beliefs, or even acknowledge that they need evidence?
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:31 am

john9blue wrote:

so what was wrong with what i said? do atheists have evidence of their beliefs, or even acknowledge that they need evidence?


"Atheists" are not a homogenous group with the same opinions and ideas. See, there's no patriarch telling atheists what to think. The only thing in common to all atheists is that they do not believe in the existence of any gods.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:39 am

pmchugh wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Christian, Protestant since I don't accept the Pope (or other tenets of the Roman Catholic faith). Beyond that my beliefs don't necessarily match any particular church exactly, though I am a member of an Evangelical Lutheran Church in America congregation.


Do you believe the bible is the word of God?

oh BROTHER...
Of course I do, but written for a people without our current knowledge of science.

Jews, well before Christ, never mind Christians have NEVER had one, single idea about what those words mean. Anyone claiming to be the sole interpreter of the Bible is simply arrogant.

The Bible makes absolutely clear there is a God who created all, including humanity. But, it is not a scientific text and does not answer all scientific questions or provide what it does in a scientific way. The point of the creation story is that God is in charge, not a specific timeline or process by which God might or might not have made all.
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Re: Is there a god?

Postby natty dread on Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:43 am

So the entire bible is allegory?
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