Is God really Just?

[Neoteny]

Lets say if someone ignores you, shunns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, but then immediatly ask to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being an rude?

Alter the situation to accurately fit.

Lets say someone you created to ignore you ignores you, shuns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, like you created them, but then asks to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being rude, like you created them?

We weren't created to ignore Him. We were created to worship Him. But given the choice not to.

You are a frustrating man. It's great having you around.

[kagetora]

Lets say if someone ignores you, shunns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, but then immediatly ask to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being an rude?

Alter the situation to accurately fit.

Lets say someone you created to ignore you ignores you, shuns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, like you created them, but then asks to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being rude, like you created them?

We weren't created to ignore Him. We were created to worship Him. But given the choice not to.

But he knows if we were going to worship him or not. So he created us to ignore/shun him.

[Juan_Bottom]

But he knows if we were going to worship him or not. So he created us to ignore/shun him.

How many times do we have to say it brother?
Thusly, our reward/punishment is unjust.

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

Are you aware of how that sounds? You don't have to be afraid of Atheism, you know? You already shunned Hindu, and Islam, and Buddism.... Would you join them all to be safe? You already are Atheist.

You are a frustrating man. It's great having you around.

AND ONLY 14!!!! Reminds me of myself at that age actually. KAGETORA is pretty awesome.

[jay_a2j]

Lets say if someone ignores you, shunns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, but then immediatly ask to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being an rude?

Alter the situation to accurately fit.

Lets say someone you created to ignore you ignores you, shuns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, like you created them, but then asks to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being rude, like you created them?

We weren't created to ignore Him. We were created to worship Him. But given the choice not to.

But he knows if we were going to worship him or not. So he created us to ignore/shun him.

No, it remains a choice. Millions have chosen not to ignore Him.

[Juan_Bottom]

Lets say if someone ignores you, shunns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, but then immediatly ask to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being an rude?

Alter the situation to accurately fit.

Lets say someone you created to ignore you ignores you, shuns you and wants nothing to do with you but is kind to everyone else, like you created them, but then asks to come to your house just because they heard it was fun, would you let them in, or shun them for being rude, like you created them?

We weren't created to ignore Him. We were created to worship Him. But given the choice not to.

But he knows if we were going to worship him or not. So he created us to ignore/shun him.

No, it remains a choice. Millions have chosen not to ignore Him.

Dangitt Jay, I know that you know what we are saying! Does it hurt or something? Answer the riddle, Jay. Reguardless of what Paster Bob says, its a conundrum for sure.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

[kagetora]

But he knows if we were going to worship him or not. So he created us to ignore/shun him.

How many times do we have to say it brother?
Thusly, our reward/punishment is unjust.

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

Are you aware of how that sounds? You don't have to be afraid of Atheism, you know? You already shunned Hindu, and Islam, and Buddism.... Would you join them all to be safe? You already are Atheist.

You are a frustrating man. It's great having you around.

AND ONLY 14!!!! Reminds me of myself at that age actually. KAGETORA is pretty awesome.

Thank you, and I agree with all of the above statements of Juan

[Backglass]

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

[jay_a2j]

Dangitt Jay, I know that you know what we are saying! Does it hurt or something? Answer the riddle, Jay. Reguardless of what Paster Bob says, its a conundrum for sure.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Juan what did you eat for dinner tonight? Lets say its pizza. You chose to eat pizza, so you got on the phone, dialed Pizza Shack and in 30 minutes you were sinking your teeth into a hot slice of pizza! All these things were YOUR choice. Even though God knew before you were born, that on this night you would eat pizza. Just because God knows before hand what we will choose, does not mean that He "controls" the decisions we make. God knows whether or not, before you die if you are going to accept Him or reject Him. He STILL gives you every opportunity to accept his gift.

[cutebastard71]

Dangitt Jay, I know that you know what we are saying! Does it hurt or something? Answer the riddle, Jay. Reguardless of what Paster Bob says, its a conundrum for sure.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Juan what did you eat for dinner tonight? Lets say its pizza. You chose to eat pizza, so you got on the phone, dialed Pizza Shack and in 30 minutes you were sinking your teeth into a hot slice of pizza! All these things were YOUR choice. Even though God knew before you were born, that on this night you would eat pizza. Just because God knows before hand what we will choose, does not mean that He "controls" the decisions we make. God knows whether or not, before you die if you are going to accept Him or reject Him. He STILL gives you every opportunity to accept his gift.

Let us say all of this you said is true. The question is why?

Let us say that your life is a path of choices and that God gives you freedom to choose and "show your character". What is the PURPOSE of giving you that CHOICE? To test you/me/everybody? Why? What is the purpose of that test? Is it just for fun ? I am assuming that you will say like Tomas de Aquino that there is a limit to our knowledge and that we cannot understand everything

[Juan_Bottom]

Dangitt Jay, I know that you know what we are saying! Does it hurt or something? Answer the riddle, Jay. Reguardless of what Paster Bob says, its a conundrum for sure.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Juan what did you eat for dinner tonight? Lets say its pizza. You chose to eat pizza, so you got on the phone, dialed Pizza Shack and in 30 minutes you were sinking your teeth into a hot slice of pizza! All these things were YOUR choice. Even though God knew before you were born, that on this night you would eat pizza. Just because God knows before hand what we will choose, does not mean that He "controls" the decisions we make. God knows whether or not, before you die if you are going to accept Him or reject Him. He STILL gives you every opportunity to accept his gift.

Now, we are getting somewhere. God created the first man, knowing full well what he would do. And what his ancestors would do too; Freewill was never even given to us the moment we were created. Therefor, he isn't giving us an opportunity to accept any gifts. We were created with this intent to refuse said "gifts." Yet when we do what we were created for we get punished/rewarded. Sounds stupid to me.
Plus In the Bible he gives tons of people much better signs than he has ever given us in this day. It isn't raining sulfer no more. This all sounds sooo silly. These are all just easy answers to why there is no tangibilty in God.
I stand by my reply.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

[Juan_Bottom]

Let us say all of this you said is true. The question is why?

And where?

Where did you come from CUTEBASTARD71? You broadsided me too!!!

[Backglass]

This all sounds sooo silly. These are all just easy answers to why there is no tangibilty in God.

aka "Grasping at Straws".

[Juan_Bottom]

This all sounds sooo silly. These are all just easy answers to why there is no tangibilty in God.

aka "Grasping at Straws".

LAUGHING OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!

"Grasping at Straws".........

[jay_a2j]

Dangitt Jay, I know that you know what we are saying! Does it hurt or something? Answer the riddle, Jay. Reguardless of what Paster Bob says, its a conundrum for sure.

'But if God made you, and already knows everything that you are going to do, how do you have free will? Wouldn't your will have been made by him/her? Thus, no actual free will? And so your punishment/reward totally unjustified?'

Juan what did you eat for dinner tonight? Lets say its pizza. You chose to eat pizza, so you got on the phone, dialed Pizza Shack and in 30 minutes you were sinking your teeth into a hot slice of pizza! All these things were YOUR choice. Even though God knew before you were born, that on this night you would eat pizza. Just because God knows before hand what we will choose, does not mean that He "controls" the decisions we make. God knows whether or not, before you die if you are going to accept Him or reject Him. He STILL gives you every opportunity to accept his gift.

Let us say all of this you said is true. The question is why?

Let us say that your life is a path of choices and that God gives you freedom to choose and "show your character". What is the PURPOSE of giving you that CHOICE? To test you/me/everybody? Why? What is the purpose of that test? Is it just for fun ? I am assuming that you will say like Tomas de Aquino that there is a limit to our knowledge and that we cannot understand everything

The answer is because God desires to be loved by His creation. God could have easily created us with the knowledge that He exists and without freewill so we would have had no choice but to worship Him. But is that really love? No, love involves free will. His creation choosing to love Him. He could have created us all to love Him, but He wanted it to be genuine, from our hearts.


Juan, I have accepted His Gift, I was not created to reject it. I, like everyone else had/has to make a choice. To accept said gift or reject it.

[cutebastard71]

Let us say all of this you said is true. The question is why?

And where?

Where did you come from CUTEBASTARD71? You broadsided me too!!!

I am orbiting the Earth above Canada in an invisible space ship. We came to see what happened with our experiment And I can tell you we are not pleased

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan, I have accepted His Gift, I was not created to reject it.

Thank-you for understanding what I was saying.

I am orbiting the Earth above Canada in an invisible space ship. We came to see what happened with our experiment And I can tell you we are not pleased

Huh? You don't like the Canadians either huh? Welp, I would avoid the Upper Eastern coast of the U.S. If I were you.

[cutebastard71]

Juan, I have accepted His Gift, I was not created to reject it.

Thank-you for understanding what I was saying.

I am orbiting the Earth above Canada in an invisible space ship. We came to see what happened with our experiment And I can tell you we are not pleased

Huh? You don't like the Canadians either huh? Welp, I would avoid the Upper Eastern coast of the U.S. If I were you.

I was referring to the planet and all humankind Canada was a j/k related to my IP

[Juan_Bottom]

I was referring to the planet and all humankind Canada was a j/k related to my IP

Sure hope that you don't need to destroy anything. At least I know I'm good though . Poor bastards.

[FabledIntegral]

Ah, but is God a viewer? No. He is the director. He chose that the kid would fall in the river. So the difference is, God (the director) chose our options, chose our decisions, and chose the consequences. Where as others (the viewer) would only see the options, decisions, and consequences.

Ok, better example. Jim doesn't like bananas, his mother has put his afterschool snack choices on the table, an apple and a banana. His mother knows that Jim doesn't like bananas and will most likely eat the apple. However, it is Jim's choice whether he will choose the apple or the banana. Free will is about free choice. So, unless you can say that you were made to do something against your will, by God, you can not deny that you have free will. I really have a hard time grasping why anyone can think we don't have free will.

Free will is still irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether you have it or not, that's not the point. The point is that God created us flawed, and punishes us if we succumb to those flaws.

Put it this way, I would have no problem with God's plan IF it said that all those who believe and follow and are born again get to spend time with him, BUT those who do not obey him AREN'T punished but just go away or disappear or something. Then he still spends eternity with those who chose him... but what's the need for him to be cruel and punish those who don't follow him NOT because they want to rebel, but because they incorrectly thought he wasn't real.

As said, if I by any chance thought God was to be real, I'd kneel down and accept him. But the point is I don't. And if God is real, I'm going to suffer in eternity because of it! Due to the circumstance HE put ME in! If he wants to reward the creations he made for following him, cool, but don't condemn and damn the rest that didn't follow him due to circumstance.

What circumstances did he put you in? You know about him, you are fully aware of the bible, right now your in a better spot then most. He did what he could to make you beleive, yet you don't. Most of you say "well if he's real, then why can't we see him". It's because it defeats a great purpose, the big test. If someone beleives in god with almost blind faith then he has succeeded, it's the test. Shunning him is different then not knowing. God will not punish someone agaist a sin if they didn't know(small child/remote people who have no contact with religion etc). But will if people shun him.

I am also fully aware of the Hindu religion, as are you. What happens if Hindu is the true religion? Do you think it would be just to get condemned because you thought Christianity was real? I mean, MILLIONS of Indians can't be wrong can they? Or are we starting to borderline on billions?

I'm also aware of the Greek Gods such as Zeus. Tell me, why should I choose the Christian religion? To say that God wants us the play teh guessing game of blind faith is utterly ridiculous, what's the reasoning behind that? So now Moses, who God presented himself to, has a better chance at getting into heaven than me. How is that fair? Because Moses got lucky he doesn't have to risk eternal damnation? Unbelievable. He presented himself to everyone in the Old Testament, as Jesus in the New Testament, so if I was in a lucky friggin' generation I could have been saved from damnation?

Next argument...

There was no attempt at answering this... the same could obviously be applied to Islam or any other religion. The subsequent post to mine didn't even remotely address my points and went off on another tangent.

[kagetora]

You know, we might have free choice, but that would contradict another Christian belief. God knows and controls all.

So either you don't have free choice, or God isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

[Juan_Bottom]

You know, we might have free choice, but that would contradict another Christian belief. God knows and controls all.

So either you don't have free choice, or God isn't omnipotent and omniscient.

I believe the word that you're searching for is "omnivorous."

There was no attempt at answering this... the same could obviously be applied to Islam or any other religion. The subsequent post to mine didn't even remotely address my points and went off on another tangent.

For some reasone, that happens waaayyyy too much. I'm glad you're calling him/them on it.

[heavycola]

Ah, but is God a viewer? No. He is the director. He chose that the kid would fall in the river. So the difference is, God (the director) chose our options, chose our decisions, and chose the consequences. Where as others (the viewer) would only see the options, decisions, and consequences.

Ok, better example. Jim doesn't like bananas, his mother has put his afterschool snack choices on the table, an apple and a banana. His mother knows that Jim doesn't like bananas and will most likely eat the apple. However, it is Jim's choice whether he will choose the apple or the banana. Free will is about free choice. So, unless you can say that you were made to do something against your will, by God, you can not deny that you have free will. I really have a hard time grasping why anyone can think we don't have free will.

will most likely eat the apple not definite. God is supposed to be omniscient. Therefore, there is no "most likely," only definites.

And God knows which fruit he will choose. But it is still Jim's choice! FREE WILL!

From the beginning of time it was inevitable that jim would choose the apple. God knew it even before jim was born. God knew it when he was making the universe. So I have a hrad time seeing how jim had any choice in the matter. Do you understand this, jay? According to you, the script has always been written in stone. According to you, no one has free will.

[jay_a2j]

Ah, but is God a viewer? No. He is the director. He chose that the kid would fall in the river. So the difference is, God (the director) chose our options, chose our decisions, and chose the consequences. Where as others (the viewer) would only see the options, decisions, and consequences.

Ok, better example. Jim doesn't like bananas, his mother has put his afterschool snack choices on the table, an apple and a banana. His mother knows that Jim doesn't like bananas and will most likely eat the apple. However, it is Jim's choice whether he will choose the apple or the banana. Free will is about free choice. So, unless you can say that you were made to do something against your will, by God, you can not deny that you have free will. I really have a hard time grasping why anyone can think we don't have free will.

will most likely eat the apple not definite. God is supposed to be omniscient. Therefore, there is no "most likely," only definites.

And God knows which fruit he will choose. But it is still Jim's choice! FREE WILL!

From the beginning of time it was inevitable that jim would choose the apple. God knew it even before jim was born. God knew it when he was making the universe. So I have a hrad time seeing how jim had any choice in the matter. Do you understand this, jay? According to you, the script has always been written in stone. According to you, no one has free will.

Why is this so hard to understand? Jim had a choice, apple or banana. God knew which JIM would choose. God knew the outcome but DID NOT CONTROL IT. Because Jim has free will. It's not scripted, scripted implies "control". Have you ever went to grab an apple but some overwhelming power made you take a kiwi instead when you really wanted an apple? Of course not, YOU have free will! If you didn't, you would be serving God right now, and always would have been.

[PLAYER57832]

If you read in the bible, Hindu was a religion made out of spite against God shortly after the Incident in the Tower of Babel(or so I think). So to make god mad they took the image of a cow and made a golden statue and started worshipping it.

This is not correct.

[william18]

Even if I was Athiest I would become Christian to be on the safe side.

Are you aware of how that sounds? You don't have to be afraid of Atheism, you know? You already shunned Hindu, and Islam, and Buddism.... Would you join them all to be safe? You already are Atheist.

No. How can I be Athiest if I have a religion. Oh and the fact that why not worship other religions is because it's agaisnst the teachings.