Philosophy Final- God Exists

[heavycola]

they won't win either, they can't prove God doesn't excist.

The burden of proof is on the believers. I can't prove to you that unicorns, the Mekon or a teapot orbiting Mars don't exist.

I in fact found Christ while I was in prision.

so that's where he's been hiding.

[2dimes]

Backglass you're hillarious.

You say.

"Mr.Nate's a christian because he was programmed that way.

"Dewey is a christian because he needs a crutch to get over his dark side."

And even though, you can spot that the kids brain washed to dress up in suits with name tags, call themselves by a title that should mean a person that is old and wise, are in a cult, you think they are the same as the other two.

You correctly describe them as three seperate things yet can't differentiate them.

So I guess by that logic you must be like any child molesting rapist so wrapped up by you lust for kiddies, that you hate anyone labeled as christian?

[Backglass]

Backglass you're hillarious.

Thanks!

"Mr.Nate's a christian because he was programmed that way.

Yup.

"Dewey is a christian because he needs a crutch to get over his dark side."

It worked for him.

And even though, you can spot that the kids brain washed to dress up in suits with name tags, call themselves by a title that should mean a person that is old and wise, are in a cult, you think they are the same as the other two.

Not the same, but close.

You correctly describe them as three seperate things yet can't differentiate them.

Sure I can. They are all deluded into believing in the supernatural.

So I guess by that logic you must be like any child molesting rapist so wrapped up by you lust for kiddies, that you hate anyone labeled as christian?

Huh? Explain the alter-boy sodomizing catholic priests then.

[dewey316]

I'm not going to go thru and quote everything, as the responses are coming in quickly enough that I can't keep up.

Backglass, You are right, what they do need is medical help, and that is the primary objective of what I do there. It is about teaching the people, first and formost to take care of themselfs, and build a sense of community. Things like basic sanitation, and germ theory, are not known. The goal is to save peoples lives, and save them from suffering. If I can show someone God at the same time, then great.

Instead of just writing a check, I go over there, someone has to go, and just donate my time at the same time.

I am very glad you have traveled, and maybe my comment was not warrented. Your right, I have not seen anyone turn water into wine. But, I have seen things that science and medicine can't explain. I have seen x-rays of people, that even the specialist working on it, can't explain.

As for my personal history, I won't say that I haven't done stupid things, or that I haven't made many mistakes (and I still make many mistakes). I don't see my religion as a crutch to my changing. I only mentioned that, so that you were aware that I am not someone that fit the mold that you were so quick to lay out for what you seem to think all Christians fit in to.

vtmarik -- I'll try to put this into words. It would be so much easier to talk face to face about it. No, evil was not created to trick us. It was needed for us to have free will. No, there are people who do good, and don't know God, there are also people who know god, and do evil. As I stated above, I have seen things that cannot be explained to me by anyone, I beleive this to be God directly working.

Your BTK arguement is bunk with me. I take full responsability for the things I did, and I dealt with the fallout from that. If you think that I am saying that people don't do bad things willingly, that is not what I am saying. There are whoever many people that are out there doing what God has commanded them to do, in helping others. I doubt that many of these people would be doing that, without their faith. This to me, is God working thru people. You saving a puppy, is you saving a puppy. The reason that I have gone to other countries, is my faith, I wouldn't have gone on my own, without that faith. I don't say this to try to build myself up, it is the opposite. I am willing to admit, that without my faith, I would not have gone out of my way to try to help fellow humans. If you are compelled to help people, or puppies, good for you. The world needs more people willing to help each other, reguardless of if they beleive in a God, many gods, or no gods.

I don't know if that made any sense. I could explain my belief on good or evil, but to do that, I would quote scripture, I am sure that is not what you want me to do.

[Backglass]

The world needs more people willing to help each other, reguardless of if they beleive in a God, many gods, or no gods.

I agree...100%. I believe in people.

[2dimes]

So I guess by that logic you must be like any child molesting rapist so wrapped up by you lust for kiddies, that you hate anyone labeled as christian?

Huh? Explain the alter-boy sodomizing catholic priests then.

Oh my goodness, I wasn't expecting that!

Now that we've pieced it together and you're catholic that lumps you right in.

Let's hold hands, all rise and sing.

[Bertros Bertros]

This is where the diffrence in views comes in. I don't beleive that it is anything I do. Most of the time, I can hardly handle myself, I honestly don't think it is anything I do. There is hope in the idea, that there is something more, beyond this life, and beyond the circumstances we are born into. If you worldview includes a figure that is greater than this world, it is easy to see this hope as God working. If your worldview doesn't have that, it is easy to think of it as man's doing.

Man you are seriously selling yourself short. You tell a child he has hope because when he dies hes going to heaven, you gave that child hope. If God had told the child then he would have provided the hope, but he didn't, you did.

Your personal history has little to do with it really. If belief in God helps you repent and from there you have decided you want to try and make whatever difference you can to people less fortunate than you, well as Backglass would say, good for you. But take the credit yourself, its false modesty to suggest that God made the difference when you did.

Some people choose religion as a tool for good, others as a tool for evil and plenty of them, some for both which is really sinister. But in no way does any of it have any bearing on the existence, or otherwise, of God.

[2dimes]

And even though, you can spot that the kids brain washed to dress up in suits with name tags, call themselves by a title that should mean a person that is old and wise, are in a cult, you think they are the same as the other two.

Not the same, but close.

You correctly describe them as three seperate things yet can't differentiate them.

Sure I can. They are all deluded into believing in the supernatural.

Ok, I suppose that's a semi cohearent view. Carry on.

[dewey316]

I agree...100%. I believe in people.

I don't, there are a lot of people who do a lot of good, but there is a huge capasity for sin (or evil, i guess it depends on how you look at it). That is why explains the priests you point out. They have the title of a leader, and can still do unspeakable things to children, shows that the capacity for sin. But, I think we both agree, that the world would be a much better place to live, if people were willing to help each other, and treat each other better.

[MR. Nate]

Dewey - Thank you for commending me, and I appreciate your input, it is genuine and (dare I say?) descerning.

Backglass - I'm not going to pretend that I can shatter my hermeneutic spiral. I can't. But please be aware of yours. You say that you were free to choose whatever religion you wanted. I'm going to tell you that the current culture pushes people toward athiesm. That's what the "enlightenment" has done for the west. So you are a product of the culture you grew up in as much as I am. Dewey is not, since he was not raised in a Christian environment. But he didn't break his worldview, God did.

You compare God to a crutch. That's close. I prefer wheelchair. and I need that wheelchair because I don't have the ability to walk on my own. And I think it's very sad that you sit on the floor, also unable to walk, and mock me because I'm so weak as to need a wheelchair.

As far as delusion, I think that you're denial of God is on an equal level with belief in leperchauns. Demonstrate that incorrigibility is more descriptive of athiesm than christianity, and we can talk.

vtmarik. God didn't create good or evil, but that is because good emerges from the charechter of God. Evil, then, is a twisting and perversion of that charechter. If good and bad are constructs, why is torturing inocent babies for fun assigned "badness" and protecting your child from a bullet by taking it yourself "good." It's completly random.

[Mirak]

But, I think we both agree, that the world would be a much better place to live, if people were willing to help each other, and treat each other better.

No one would disagree with that.

It would also be a much better place to live if the one being who could solve all its problems with the click of a finger would just do it...

Doesn't exist....can't...and if he did exist and could, but won't...well I think you can see where I'm going

Meanwhile hats off to your philanthropic work but what chance did that poor kid have to exercise free will...?

[2dimes]

But, I think we both agree, that the world would be a much better place to live, if people were willing to help each other, and treat each other better.

No one would disagree with that.

I think plenty of people disagree with that.

Most of them are probably north americans that call themselves christians.

I have heard people say the population of third world countries are ignorant, backwards and deserve to starve because they're over populating themselves and should just stop breeding.

[Bertros Bertros]

Backglass - I'm not going to pretend that I can shatter my hermeneutic spiral. I can't. But please be aware of yours. You say that you were free to choose whatever religion you wanted. I'm going to tell you that the current culture pushes people toward athiesm. That's what the "enlightenment" has done for the west. So you are a product of the culture you grew up in as much as I am. Dewey is not, since he was not raised in a Christian environment. But he didn't break his worldview, God did.

Then what of me Nate. I grew up in a small village in the UK. My parents weren't religious, I say weren't because as they have approached the time of reckoning they seem to have found God more and more, I guess its like insurance. There wasn't much to do in my village so I joined the church, they had quizzes at Sunday school, I like quizzes, and cakes, I like cakes even more, and singing, thats fun too.

So I went to church every week, and sunday school, and to friends houses whose parents were at the church, my folks, at that time thought it was funny but harmless.

It was one of those funny churches where everybody dances and sings, you have lots of them in the states, but over here they are less common, especially back then. Occassionally everybody would 'heal' one of the congregation, we would stand with our hands out-stretched and let the power flow through us into the one being healed. Some people even shaked with the power of the Lord coursing through them, quite a lot in fact.

I never shaked. I believed everything I was told, but for some reason God never chose me to pass his power through. For a while I thought there was something wrong with me, that I musn't be worthy of his power or love. That was kind of upsetting. After a while I started to pretend to feel it and shook along with everyone else, revelling in the power of the lord, but deep down I felt awful because I knew I was a fraud.

And then I realised, everyone else was faking it too. No-one really shook with the power of the lord, everyone was just making it up, and I felt a lot better after that. I still went to church, there wasn't much else to do and like I said I really like quizzes, and cake. And I was happy as I knew that there was nothing wrong with me, I was just like everyone else, we all made it up, it was all just a bit of fun.

So really I changed my own world view. I had one imprinted on me by others, then through my own freewill saw that it was flawed, and making me unhappy, and changed it. My mind hasn't changed since that day, I haven't believed in God since the day I realised everyone was faking. As an adult though I'm not so inclined to see it as harmless fun.

I know I wrote that little story in a rather childish fashion, but then I was a child when this all happened so its the way it comes out. A rather stupid question I have often wondered since then, is does my baptism count, if I only did it for the cakes?

[dewey316]

A rather stupid question I have often wondered since then, is does my baptism count, if I only did it for the cakes?

That is between you and God. Batism is something that I personaly beleive we should do, and are commanded to do. But, baptism in itself is not the salvation (example: The crook on the cross next to Jesus).

[MR. Nate]

Then what of me Nate.

Why I am the arbiter of hermeneutic spirals is beyond me.

My parents weren't religious.

Certainly puts you outside of the culture of Christianity

everyone else was faking it too

This is the most common, and the saddest, reason that people reject Christ. It's a lack of love, and I can't possibly begin to defend it. If these people were truly faking their worship, then it's empty, and I don't blame you for rejecting their beliefs. No one wants to hang with hyporcrites.

Even for those that are in a Christian environment, there has to be a lightswitch moment when one activly chooses to live their beliefs. THAT's when God breaks through your preconceptions. Outside of that change, it's all so much wandering through the alternate systems.

Christianity is more than a set of intellectual beliefs, it's a lifestyle. If people have correct beliefs, but don't live in a manner consistent with those beliefs, it's not Christianity. And I know some of you are going to write that off, because I've said similar things in the past and been mocked, but that doesn't make it less true.

[heavycola]

there has to be a lightswitch moment when one activly chooses to live their beliefs.

HAD IT. LIVING THEM. GLORIOUSLY GOD-FREE.

Christianity is more than a set of intellectual beliefs, it's a lifestyle.

I contest your use of the word 'intellectual'.

[2dimes]

I allmost don't want to point this out Heavy. I like to read your posts they're pretty well thought out. Oh well here it is.


You seem to be wasting your life debating with people about something you claim to have figured out and you probably will never convince them of your ideas.

You only have sixty years or less left.

Those other guys have eternity to enjoy memories of the tiny blip of time they spent inviting you to join them.

[Bertros Bertros]

Even for those that are in a Christian environment, there has to be a lightswitch moment when one activly chooses to live their beliefs.

It seems heavycola somewhat pipped me to the post here... Thats was exactly what happened, I had my lightswitch moment. I realised there in the church that none of it was real. It was liberating then long before I knew what liberating meant and it is still liberating me now over 20 years later.

As to the faking worship, this is an out of interest thing but kind of a leading question so if you choose to ignore it I will understand completely...

Do you honestly think any of those people, in some of the wierder variations on the christian church, who appear visibly to move with the power of the lord are not faking it? And if not, how does this not undermine your whole belief system to know that people at the very centre of your religion are making a mockery of it from within?

[heavycola]

2Dimes - i think we've been fellow posters on a few forums over the years

But:
a) i like arguing
and
b) I do this at work. (I'm not at work now, but i have drunk too much coffee and need to stare at this screen until my brain melts.) Basically it can't be a waste of time if i'm getting paid for it.
and
c) I haven't figured anything out, and where else am i going to get a hundred different points of view to rail against?

I don't believe anyone has an eternity to enjoy anything, that's the crux here. I have 60 years or less to enjoy myself and hopefully have a positive effect on the world before i become worm food. I am not going to waste it on my knees in a drafty church talking to a ghost.

[2dimes]

Good to hear. I just didn't want you missing out on the out doors trying to talk Caleb out of his comet prophecies.

Yeah I was on pokeroom and totalbluff a bit too much.

[heavycola]

outdoors, pfft. I have Halo.

[MR. Nate]

Do you honestly think any of those people, in some of the wierder variations on the christian church, who appear visibly to move with the power of the lord are not faking it? And if not, how does this not undermine your whole belief system to know that people at the very centre of your religion are making a mockery of it from within?

I don't know how many are faking it. Having known some of that particular brand I would say that some are, but I would also say that some arn't. Does it undermine my religion? No, because as much as I do believe in the communal aspect of Christianity, I also believe in personal accountability.

I can say to those who are faking it, that they will stand before God and have to explain that. (Just like I'll have to explain my actions, and you'll have to explain yours) For as long as there has been Christianity, there has been fakers and hangers-on. Doesn't change anything.

[Bertros Bertros]

For as long as there has been Christianity, there has been fakers and hangers-on. Doesn't change anything.

Ok, so here is where the question was leading which is why in some ways I thought it unfair but cheers for being a good sport, Nate Also I don't expect you to explain this as I don't really think there is any way to do so but if at least some of them aren't faking...

Doesn't it strike you as odd, that when as a child I was feeling confused inside because God wouldn't choose me to pass his power through, and started to question whether any of it was real, that rather than include me, with full knowledge of the consequences due to his omniescent omnipotence, he chose to keep that from me and lose me forever?

If God is real, then he certainly doesn't want me to believe in him, as he had his chance and chose to ignore it. I mean I was there hook line and sinker and he threw it all away.

Personally I can't believe that any of them are genuinely shaking because God's power is in them. They are all making it up, mainly because they don't want to feel left out. Or are some people more worthy in God's eyes than others? If so I think I'm quite happy on my side of the fence, I'd rather have no deity, than one that picks who is in the club like its teams for sport at high school.

[heavycola]

If God is real, then he certainly doesn't want me to believe in him, as he had his chance and chose to ignore it. I mean I was there hook line and sinker and he threw it all away.

Don't want to interrupt Bertros' question but this is an interesting way of looking at it that i hadn't really thought about before. I went to a posh Scottish private school (C of England-founded, used to be a theological college), went to chapel every day except Sunday. Hell i even got confirmed (although that may have been for the free weekend at home that was involved). Anyway i took communion, sung hymns, prayed - and nothing. God had me there, in his house, six days a week, surrounded by teachers and a chaplain all reinforcing this idea - and nothing. Not a peep. So yeah, what he asked:

Doesn't it strike you as odd, that when as a child I was feeling confused inside because God wouldn't choose me to pass his power through, and started to question whether any of it was real, that rather than include me, with full knowledge of the consequences due to his omniescent omnipotence, he chose to keep that from me and lose me forever?

[MeDeFe]

I'll answer pre-emptively: God works in mysterious ways. Right Nate?