Out of the Closet

[jimboston]

Gay and Canadian.

Isn't that one and the same?

[jimboston]

Northstar.

Also Superman and Green Lantern are not Marvel characters.

inb4 NERRRDDDD!!!!

Not exactly a major character lol. They've made five X-men movies and he hasn't even had a small cameo role in a single one of them. He's so unknown to the general public that it doesn't matter if he's gay or not.
Now if one of the characters I mentioned would be declared gay, then it would be a big deal. But northstar is too minor!

Colossus is gay in the Ultimate Marvel Universe.

There are several gay characters in Avengers Academy... which though not a "kid book" is aimed at younger (teen and 20-something) readers.

[jimboston]

http://www.al.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2012/05/dc_comics_says_major_superhero.html



... From the article:

A DC Comics publisher recently revealed one of its "major" superheroes would become one of its most prominent gay characters.

Daily Mail reports co-publisher Dan DiDio, who previously said an existing character would not come out of the closet, said at the Kapow Comic Convention that one will soon change his sexual orientation.

But DC has yet to specify which character it will be.

We could argue over what "major" means.

I can tell you it won't be Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or Robin.

I expect maybe one of the Flash characters or the Kyle Rayner / Green Lantern.
Maybe Super Girl or Bat Woman... that is possible.

I'm not a big DC reader... so I couldn't speculate more.

[Gillipig]

jimboston, you lazy sod, you've been around long enough to know that quoting several people in the same post is possible lol.
And btw I've never heard of this "colossus" character either. My point stands. There are only "minor" male gay characters in comics and they'll never dare to make a currently heterosexual character gay!

[greenoaks]

[spurgistan]

jimboston, you lazy sod, you've been around long enough to know that quoting several people in the same post is possible lol.
And btw I've never heard of this "colossus" character either. My point stands. There are only "minor" male gay characters in comics and they'll never dare to make a currently heterosexual character gay!

Never is a long time.

[Gillipig]

jimboston, you lazy sod, you've been around long enough to know that quoting several people in the same post is possible lol.
And btw I've never heard of this "colossus" character either. My point stands. There are only "minor" male gay characters in comics and they'll never dare to make a currently heterosexual character gay!

Never is a long time.

Words form sentences.

[Nola_Lifer]

jimboston, you lazy sod, you've been around long enough to know that quoting several people in the same post is possible lol.
And btw I've never heard of this "colossus" character either. My point stands. There are only "minor" male gay characters in comics and they'll never dare to make a currently heterosexual character gay!

Never is a long time.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

BLACK FLAG MOTHERFUCKER

-TG

[squishyg]

Batwoman is gay...

And Sue Storm is a positive female character as long as you ignore all the times Reed Richards was basically telling her to stfu or threatening to smack her.

[jonesthecurl]

Strong female character with a good storyline

Green Arrow & Black Canary - wonderful storyline.(DC)
Megan from Captain Britain (Marvel) - and come to that Captain UK from the parallel universe as shown since the 80's. Hell, she killed the Fury by tearing out it's spine and beating it to death, because she was pretty annoyed.

Gay characters.
Two of the Young Avengers are gay, and a couple.(Marvel)One is like a young version of Thor, and one of the Hulk.
Bunker of the Teen Titans is gay and Mexican (DC) I can't comment, I not read this about this character (my local comic shop shut down two years ago)
Apollo and Midnighter, from Stormwatch (adult DC) are pretty close to a gay Superman and Batman.
Batwoman is gay too (DC)

Ya know, there was a time when it was almost impossible to find black heroes in comics too.

[natty dread]

there was a time when it was almost impossible to find black heroes in comics too.

Black gender-swapped batman & superman to the rescue!

[thegreekdog]

To name five. Strong female characters not based entirely on sexuality or the Women in Refridgerators concept. If you haven't read any of this stuff, I suggest you do.

Yeah... maybe.

I was referring to the impossibilty of proving to you that women in comics are not prortayed the way you think they should be portrayed (and again I disagree with you) because no female readers read comics versus no female readers read comics because female characters are not protrayed a certain way.

That's because I'm right!

I don't read manga or European comics so I have no frame of reference. From what I've seen of manga it looks like the women have bigger boobs and smaller waists than US superhero comics, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Well yes and no. Manga isn't a homogenous mass of comics, you can't really compare it directly to DC/Marvel stuff because DC/Marvel is just 2 publishers, while there's like a whole country + some more of Manga series, with wildly varying styles... certainly some mangas are just as problematic as the superhero stuff...

But I have a feeling you're not really getting what my objection is, maybe it's because you misunderstand me or maybe it's because you like arguing against a strawman argument...

I think when you see a woman in a comic book and she is sexually attractive you have automatically assumed that she is only in the comic book for that reason. This appears to indicate you don't actually read American superhero comic books from Marvel or DC (although Marvel portrays women better than DC in my opinion).

...yeah, see, that's not it at all. I have no problem with sexually attractive women in comics. I love sex. But this -



...this is not sexy, this just looks wrong. And painful.

And that's increasingly common on superhero comics these days.

Good story bro.

Blorp

I'm sorry if using big words went over your head... really I am

I think you're reading too much into the psychology of comic book readers with respect to the visual medium itself. I read comics because they are good stories. I like superhero comics and superhero stories. E.g. - George RR Martin wrote (and later edited) a series of books about superheros. It was excellent and did not have gratuitious tits and ass. You should lighten up a little. You take everything a bit too seriously. Read some Marvel and DC comics with women in them. Like actually read them; don't look at the random hottie pictures.

I have read them, and I don't really want to read them anymore. And no, the "they're just comic books" excuse doesn't cut it. Comic books are a medium just as any other, it's what you do with the medium that counts.

And I think you just like to defend things you like because you don't want to accept that they have any flaws.

I don't even know what you're talking about any more. Is your argument that there are no positive female characters in Marvel/DC comics? Is your argument that women in comics exist merely to fulfill male fantasies? Is your argument that it's impossible for female superheroes to do whatever you think they should or should not be able to do? Pick one and let's discuss that.

[natty dread]

I don't even know what you're talking about any more. Is your argument that there are no positive female characters in Marvel/DC comics? Is your argument that women in comics exist merely to fulfill male fantasies? Is your argument that it's impossible for female superheroes to do whatever you think they should or should not be able to do? Pick one and let's discuss that.

I'm confused. Isn't it a common and accepted practice to present several arguments that support ones position in a debate?

[jonesthecurl]

He's asking "What IS your position?".
Should we have a poll on that?
My guess: You think you're too cool to read comics that anyone likes.

[greenoaks]

He's asking "What IS your position?".
Should we have a poll on that?
My guess: You think you're too cool to read comics that anyone likes.

let's have a natty poll

[natty dread]

He's asking "What IS your position?".

My position is that the portrayal of female characters in most mainstream superhero comics is extremely misogynistic, and a secondary position that many more females (and males as well) would read those comics if they weren't so misogynist.

I don't think the mainstream comicbook industry is totally to blame for this though, a lot of it is simply caused by the inherent misogyny in our culture (by which I mean the over-encompassing culture of all "western" countries).


On a side note, I'm also confused as to why TGD would suddenly act like he doesn't know what my arguments are, since in the post he responded to I was merely responding to TGD:s own arguments - unless his goal is to misrepresent my arguments with some kind of strawman tactic? Please say it ain't so, TGD.

[jimboston]

He's asking "What IS your position?".

My position is that the portrayal of female characters in most mainstream superhero comics is extremely misogynistic, and a secondary position that many more females (and males as well) would read those comics if they weren't so misogynist.

I don't think the mainstream comicbook industry is totally to blame for this though, a lot of it is simply caused by the inherent misogyny in our culture (by which I mean the over-encompassing culture of all "western" countries).


On a side note, I'm also confused as to why TGD would suddenly act like he doesn't know what my arguments are, since in the post he responded to I was merely responding to TGD:s own arguments - unless his goal is to misrepresent my arguments with some kind of strawman tactic? Please say it ain't so, TGD.

The mainstream comic book publishers produce what sells. If more strong female characters would sell books... they would produce more. The publishers want to make money... I don't think they have a political agenda (for the most part). They would be happy to produce whatever sells most. Many female driven books die early death due to lackluster sales. Recent examples include She Hulk (which was very smartly written)... and Ms. Marvel (which was more a smash-em up book). Neither lasted.

To some extend what is produced is misogynistic. So I agree with you a bit... though I don't think it's as bad as you claim.

Of course you realize who the audience is for most mainstream comics... right?

Your point is kinda like saying "Hustler / Penthouse is Pornography". To which I would say "Duh!".... Or I might say in response... "Wow fascinating... do you also know that the sky is blue?"

[natty dread]

He's asking "What IS your position?".

My position is that the portrayal of female characters in most mainstream superhero comics is extremely misogynistic, and a secondary position that many more females (and males as well) would read those comics if they weren't so misogynist.

I don't think the mainstream comicbook industry is totally to blame for this though, a lot of it is simply caused by the inherent misogyny in our culture (by which I mean the over-encompassing culture of all "western" countries).


On a side note, I'm also confused as to why TGD would suddenly act like he doesn't know what my arguments are, since in the post he responded to I was merely responding to TGD:s own arguments - unless his goal is to misrepresent my arguments with some kind of strawman tactic? Please say it ain't so, TGD.

The mainstream comic book publishers produce what sells. If more strong female characters would sell books... they would produce more. The publishers want to make money... I don't think they have a political agenda (for the most part). They would be happy to produce whatever sells most. Many female driven books die early death due to lackluster sales. Recent examples include She Hulk (which was very smartly written)... and Ms. Marvel (which was more a smash-em up book). Neither lasted.

To some extend what is produced is misogynistic. So I agree with you a bit... though I don't think it's as bad as you claim.

Of course you realize who the audience is for most mainstream comics... right?

Your point is kinda like saying "Hustler / Penthouse is Pornography". To which I would say "Duh!".... Or I might say in response... "Wow fascinating... do you also know that the sky is blue?"

I think you don't really get what the objection is though. It's not that there are sexy female characters. Sexy is fine. You seem to be implying that the misogynist treatment of women & sexiness is something that are inherently intertwined, but that just isn't true. There's tons of comics that have female characters that are totally hot + sexy, but which don't portray females in a misogynistic way.

The problematic part comes from things like gratuituous sexiness, when the sexiness seems forced and plastered on - when every panel needs to show tits and ass, no matter how contorted and weird and impractical it makes the characters look... when all the camera angles and costumes are designed to show off sexiness, disregarding internal consistency of the story, or character personalities... when there's discrepancies between how male and female characters are treated and portrayed, just to show off the sexy... when artists don't even give a shit about human anatomy, and draw characters in weird, impossible poses...

And not all gratuituous sexiness is bad, there's nothing wrong with some fanservice now and then, but when it becomes the main reason for the existence of female characters, when it's being added to every damn page without considering the story, the flow and pacing, the character development... that's when it becomes a problem.

Also, I know mainstream superhero comics aren't the only ones with these problems, but they seem to be most prevalent in them.

[thegreekdog]

He's asking "What IS your position?".

My position is that the portrayal of female characters in most mainstream superhero comics is extremely misogynistic, and a secondary position that many more females (and males as well) would read those comics if they weren't so misogynist.

I don't think the mainstream comicbook industry is totally to blame for this though, a lot of it is simply caused by the inherent misogyny in our culture (by which I mean the over-encompassing culture of all "western" countries).


On a side note, I'm also confused as to why TGD would suddenly act like he doesn't know what my arguments are, since in the post he responded to I was merely responding to TGD:s own arguments - unless his goal is to misrepresent my arguments with some kind of strawman tactic? Please say it ain't so, TGD.

Natty Position #1 - Mainstream comics' potrayal of female characters is misogynistic.

TGD Response (also above) - Some mainstream comics' portayals of female characters are misogynistic. jones and I provided examples of those that are not (in response to your request for examples).

Natty Position #2 - More people would read these comics if they were't so misogynistic.

TGD Response (also above) - I don't necessarily disagree, but comics with strong female central characters do not sell as well as comics without strong female central characters. I believe She-Hulk is the only book that sold well with a strong female central characater.

So natty, can you please address these two responses (and you can respond to jones as well). We were going round in circles and I did not understand your points (probably my fault). I was not making a strawman (this time).

I suspect, like jones, that you're a hipster who hates all things mainstream and finds a reason for the hatred (namely, in this instance, misogyny).

[natty dread]

TGD Response (also above) - Some mainstream comics' portayals of female characters are misogynistic. jones and I provided examples of those that are not (in response to your request for examples).

Arguably, there's more that are than aren't.

Wait... is that grammatically valid? Oh well, who cares.

TGD Response (also above) - I don't necessarily disagree, but comics with strong female central characters do not sell as well as comics without strong female central characters. I believe She-Hulk is the only book that sold well with a strong female central characater.

That's a flawed argument - there doesn't need to be a comic that's all about "strong female characters". The thing is, usually when the producers of comics or whatever go out of their way to specifically create comics with "strong female characters", it becomes a ham-fisted attempt at pandering to females...

Ok, let me try to explain this with an example: The Black Panther. The first black superhero in Marvel comics. So yeah, people are complaining that black people are underrepresented in our comics? Let's make a black superhero - what should we name him? Oh, it's got to be something "black". How else are people going to know that he's a black superhero! Oh, I know ­- let's name him Black Panther!

Well, maybe that's not such a great example. But you can see the point - people can see a transparent attempt at pandering to "the minorities".

As a counter-example, look at Dinosaur Comics. Utahraptor is gay, but his entire character isn't built around the idea that he's gay - like, he isn't named "Gaysaurus" or something equally moronic, it's like it's just an aspect of his character that is portrayed naturally, like it's no big deal really.

So instead of creating separate comics that are specifically targeted at female demographics, the comics producers could just portray females better in their already popular comics with established readership & fan base. Heck, it'd all be cool if female characters were just portrayed the same way male characters are.

[thegreekdog]

Arguably, there's more that are than aren't.

Maybe. I don't read enough comics anymore to know. Of the female characters in things I do read (X-Men, Spiderman stuff mostly), there are many strong female characters. I don't read any DC stuff so I can't speak for them.

I think it also depends on the writer. Some writers are better at writing stronger female characters than others.

That's a flawed argument - there doesn't need to be a comic that's all about "strong female characters". The thing is, usually when the producers of comics or whatever go out of their way to specifically create comics with "strong female characters", it becomes a ham-fisted attempt at pandering to females...

I don't disagree. The point was that it appears, at least to me, that strong female characters don't make more women (or men) read comics. I'm sure there hasn't been a study on it, but I don't think more people read Fantastic Four because Sue Storm is a strong female character or more people read X-Men because Jean Grey is a highly developed character. Gross generalization based on my own personal knowledge it may be, but I know zero women who read superhero comics. The ones that know I read them refer to them as childrens' books (and do not refer to misogyny).

[natty dread]

Maybe. I don't read enough comics anymore to know. Of the female characters in things I do read (X-Men, Spiderman stuff mostly), there are many strong female characters. I don't read any DC stuff so I can't speak for them.

I think it also depends on the writer. Some writers are better at writing stronger female characters than others.

Ok the whole concept of "strong female characters" is a bit misleading for the purposes of this discussion... that's not the only issue here, whether the characters are written well or not. If you look at for example costume design - compare male superheroes to female superheroes and tell me if you can see the discrepancy in the way they dress? And then there's the really funky anatomy, like every frame needs to show both tits and ass so the characters are twisted in entirely impossible poses, like they have no spine or something?

It's these kinds of things, that don't really make sense, and are only there for "teh sex appeal" that are the most problematic.

I don't disagree. The point was that it appears, at least to me, that strong female characters don't make more women (or men) read comics. I'm sure there hasn't been a study on it, but I don't think more people read Fantastic Four because Sue Storm is a strong female character or more people read X-Men because Jean Grey is a highly developed character. Gross generalization based on my own personal knowledge it may be, but I know zero women who read superhero comics. The ones that know I read them refer to them as childrens' books (and do not refer to misogyny).

Well the conception that comic books are "for children" is not really gender specific... it's still a pretty widely spread misconception.

[Gillipig]

Did anyone say strong female super heroes?

My favorite is wonder woman! Just look at her girl power!!

[thegreekdog]

Maybe. I don't read enough comics anymore to know. Of the female characters in things I do read (X-Men, Spiderman stuff mostly), there are many strong female characters. I don't read any DC stuff so I can't speak for them.

I think it also depends on the writer. Some writers are better at writing stronger female characters than others.

Ok the whole concept of "strong female characters" is a bit misleading for the purposes of this discussion... that's not the only issue here, whether the characters are written well or not. If you look at for example costume design - compare male superheroes to female superheroes and tell me if you can see the discrepancy in the way they dress? And then there's the really funky anatomy, like every frame needs to show both tits and ass so the characters are twisted in entirely impossible poses, like they have no spine or something?

It's these kinds of things, that don't really make sense, and are only there for "teh sex appeal" that are the most problematic.

I do not see a discrepancy in the way they dress. Men and women both wear skin tight uniforms to accentuate muscles or tits or asses... whatever. I don't see a discrepancy in how they are posed. Men are seen flexing or whatever; women are in whatever sexy poses. Very rarely will I see accurate depictions (the New X-Men is an example of an accurate depiction).