Visual Inflation

[thegreekdog]

If they had done their jobs and turned down people who clearly had no means of paying back the loans they were giving out, then the problem would not have occurred. You know what, that's unfair. They did do their jobs. They knew what they were doing. The lenders went out of their way to lend to virtually every sucker that came asking for money, and they then turned around and sold the risk to other suckers (pension funds being one of the biggest suckers). Both sides were assured that they were making wise investment decisions.

What we have here is the choice between blaming the con artist or the people that got conned. I know which choice I'd consider ridiculous.

Typically the con artist knows something the person who got conned doesn't. If a bank knows they can lend to someone who won't be able to pay the bills, and the person who can't pay the bills doesn't know that, then we have some real fucking stupid people in this country. Oh wait, that's right, we do have some real fucking stupid people in this country.

Who do you blame more:

- The fake Nigerian prince or the person who opens up his email and reads it?
- The person buying lottery tickets or the lottery provider?
- The person who doesn't wear their seatbelt or the car company?

I mean, for f*ck's sake... our country is such a bunch of fucking moronic, whiny pussies it makes me sick.

"Oh, I didn't know that a $800,000 house was beyond my means when I make $30,000 a year and have four kids. Woe is me..."
"Oh, it's not my fault I lent $800,000 to that moron with four kids who makes $30,000 a year. Woe is me..."

[WILLIAMS5232]

Maybe not, but it does introduce the ideas of make money, spend, and buy things because that's good for a Capital system to keep going, or maybe it doesn't.

I need to lrn2 economics more. Interesting stuff, but I don't know much about it.

Practically speaking, I don't think people max out their credit cards or buy a house above their limit because it's "good for a capital system to keep going." I suspect they do that because they want shit.

regardless of their intention, I think he's trying to say that it's supposedly healthy for capitalism that they are buying?

dude I don't know I'm so high right now

It is healthy for capitalism that they are buying (in the short run). In the long run we get what happened in 2008. I'm not saying that lenders aren't blameless. What I'm saying is that people should have the basic knowledge and understanding not to spend above their means. For us to blame lenders for people spending above their means is, frankly, ridiculous.

If they had done their jobs and turned down people who clearly had no means of paying back the loans they were giving out, then the problem would not have occurred. You know what, that's unfair. They did do their jobs. They knew what they were doing. The lenders went out of their way to lend to virtually every sucker that came asking for money, and they then turned around and sold the risk to other suckers (pension funds being one of the biggest suckers). Both sides were assured that they were making wise investment decisions.

What we have here is the choice between blaming the con artist or the people that got conned. I know which choice I'd consider ridiculous.

the people got conned??? how?

by buying a 300,000 dollar home when they make 1500 a week?
.... that's 5th grade math.

[Juan_Bottom]

[Frigidus]

the people got conned??? how?

Typically the con artist knows something the person who got conned doesn't. If a bank knows they can lend to someone who won't be able to pay the bills, and the person who can't pay the bills doesn't know that, then we have some real fucking stupid people in this country. Oh wait, that's right, we do have some real fucking stupid people in this country.

Yes. Yes we do have really stupid people in this country. Let's assume for a second that every single person that ended up with one of the toxic mortgages was a complete idiot with no idea how to keep a handle on their spending. This isn't actually the case (the payment plans would often be changed from what the person thought they were signing on for), but whatever, we'll assume it. People make poor investment decisions all the time, and that doesn't tank the US economy. The part that ended up completely fucking everyone over was the con artists then selling their risk for a little more than they had loaned out in the first place. They tricked a lot of fairly intelligent people into buying these steaming turds by using some bullshit economic wizardry to turn these shitty loans into packaged AAA investments. They were making pure money off of every single loan they made, while knowing that they were fucking over the people they were loaning to (who would never be able to pay the money back) and the people they were selling the loan to (who had no chance of actually making a profit). From a profit standpoint, they would be crazy not to lend every idiot with dollar signs in his eyes whatever he's asking for. Then, when the music stops playing and there aren't any fucking chairs and everyone is shitting their pants, the US government has to jump in and spend trillions of dollars to avoid an economic Armageddon.

Years later we're blaming the idiots, the laws remain basically unchanged, and now the same thing is going to happen with student loans. I think it's time that we stopped blaming the suckers of the world and start pointing the fingers at the assholes who engineered this labyrinthine bullshit, who are currently snorting coke through hundred dollar bills.

[WILLIAMS5232]

Years later we're blaming the idiots, the laws remain basically unchanged, and now the same thing is going to happen with student loans. I think it's time that we stopped blaming the suckers of the world and start pointing the fingers at the assholes who engineered this labyrinthine bullshit, who are currently snorting coke through hundred dollar bills.

how many times can a sucker be suckered before they're no longer a sucker. we're not talking about just houses here. you bring up a good point with student loans, why would these same people not take into account college? we all know college is expensive right? why not downsize the home from 400,000 to 300,000 and use the spare 100,000 for the kids school?

when does a person decide they need a house that is just ridiculously priced. i see houses all the time going for under 60,000 dollars. that's the same price of the cadillac or hummer that these same people cannot afford but decide to buy anyway, would you think that had they bought a nissan sentra and a house for 55k they would still be in the same shape. i can answer that for you, no they wouldn't. if a person makes 150,000 a year, and buys a total of 75,000 in house and vehicle.... what's that?
that's 75,000 dollars for groceries that year. that comes up to 205 bucks a day. oh, but there's the problem.... jack across the street makes 200,000 dollars a year and has a nicer house, let's sacrifice some groceries to get a nicer house so jack thinks we make the same amount as him..............

we'll never agree on these people getting "tricked". so i'm going to drop it. if that's the way you want to think then fine. but i don't feel the least bit sorry for these people. if you live within your means and spend your money after you get it you'll be just fine.

[Frigidus]

we'll never agree on these people getting "tricked". so i'm going to drop it. if that's the way you want to think then fine. but i don't feel the least bit sorry for these people. if you live within your means and spend your money after you get it you'll be just fine.

Well, that's fine. You can look at it however you want, and if you want to simplify it to "poor people got too much stuff" you can do that. Either way, everyone is paying to plug the holes in the economy. Wouldn't outlawing the shady practices solve the problem outright? If there's no profit to giving out bad loans, then bad loans won't be given out.

[thegreekdog]

the people got conned??? how?

Typically the con artist knows something the person who got conned doesn't. If a bank knows they can lend to someone who won't be able to pay the bills, and the person who can't pay the bills doesn't know that, then we have some real fucking stupid people in this country. Oh wait, that's right, we do have some real fucking stupid people in this country.

Yes. Yes we do have really stupid people in this country. Let's assume for a second that every single person that ended up with one of the toxic mortgages was a complete idiot with no idea how to keep a handle on their spending. This isn't actually the case (the payment plans would often be changed from what the person thought they were signing on for), but whatever, we'll assume it. People make poor investment decisions all the time, and that doesn't tank the US economy. The part that ended up completely fucking everyone over was the con artists then selling their risk for a little more than they had loaned out in the first place. They tricked a lot of fairly intelligent people into buying these steaming turds by using some bullshit economic wizardry to turn these shitty loans into packaged AAA investments. They were making pure money off of every single loan they made, while knowing that they were fucking over the people they were loaning to (who would never be able to pay the money back) and the people they were selling the loan to (who had no chance of actually making a profit). From a profit standpoint, they would be crazy not to lend every idiot with dollar signs in his eyes whatever he's asking for. Then, when the music stops playing and there aren't any fucking chairs and everyone is shitting their pants, the US government has to jump in and spend trillions of dollars to avoid an economic Armageddon.

Years later we're blaming the idiots, the laws remain basically unchanged, and now the same thing is going to happen with student loans. I think it's time that we stopped blaming the suckers of the world and start pointing the fingers at the assholes who engineered this labyrinthine bullshit, who are currently snorting coke through hundred dollar bills.

Oh sorry, I don't blame the 2008 meltdown on stupid people making stupid investment decisions. I blame that on banks and financial institutions. Seriously. I just don't think anyone should have been bailed out is all.

[PLAYER57832]

If they had done their jobs and turned down people who clearly had no means of paying back the loans they were giving out, then the problem would not have occurred. You know what, that's unfair. They did do their jobs. They knew what they were doing. The lenders went out of their way to lend to virtually every sucker that came asking for money, and they then turned around and sold the risk to other suckers (pension funds being one of the biggest suckers). Both sides were assured that they were making wise investment decisions.

What we have here is the choice between blaming the con artist or the people that got conned. I know which choice I'd consider ridiculous.

Typically the con artist knows something the person who got conned doesn't. If a bank knows they can lend to someone who won't be able to pay the bills, and the person who can't pay the bills doesn't know that, then we have some real fucking stupid people in this country. Oh wait, that's right, we do have some real fucking stupid people in this country.

Who do you blame more:

- The fake Nigerian prince or the person who opens up his email and reads it?
- The person buying lottery tickets or the lottery provider?
- The person who doesn't wear their seatbelt or the car company?

I mean, for f*ck's sake... our country is such a bunch of fucking moronic, whiny pussies it makes me sick.

"Oh, I didn't know that a $800,000 house was beyond my means when I make $30,000 a year and have four kids. Woe is me..."
"Oh, it's not my fault I lent $800,000 to that moron with four kids who makes $30,000 a year. Woe is me..."

It is true, but what level of expertise should the average person need to have and how are they to get it?

The trouble is that people believed these actions were OK largely because so many banks, businesses, even the politicians were happy to tell them to go ahead. When you call people "stupid" for following such advice, you also ignore that these things worked for a long time. People kept doing these things --borrowing on their houses, wracking up credit debt, etc-- because it actually WORKED for quite a while.

Even now, for every person who is in foreclosure and/or bankruptcy, you have many who have done quite well and a significant other portion who actually would do well if they had not been cheated (literally) by the banks and other entities. Or, just plain got sick.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that even today, all you hear is "growth, growth, growth". Well, where is that growth supposed to come from? Growth doesn't happen unless people go out and buy more things. To buy more things either people need more wages or they need to borrow.

Its pretty ironic that the success of society is being essentially driven by stupid people doing stupid things .. namely buying beyond their means, whereas the "failure" is based on people doing the smart things.. paying down debt, hoarding cash, etc.

[thegreekdog]

Okay, let me give you a real life example: A few years ago my wife and I went to a development to look at some homes; we didn't like them so we moved on. On a lark, we went to a different development with nicer and bigger houses. After taking a look at the model home, the realtor asked us some questions regarding our income and debt levels and then proclaimed "You can afford this house."

I will caveat again: I do not blame the 2008 financial meltdown on stupid consumers. I blame it on greedy banks and financial advisors that should have been allowed to fail and were not.

Anyway, the real estate agent was pushing us to purchase this house. So we could have done one of two things: purchased the house or not purchased the house. Knowing that it would put is in dire financial straits to purchase the house, we didn't. What specialized knowledge did I have? The first "specialized" knowledge was the income and debt of my wife and me. The second "specialized" knowledge was the understanding that the real estate agent's self-interest was to get us to buy the house. I hardly call this specialized knowledge. In fact, it's common sense. The problem is not that people don't know they can't afford something. The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

[PLAYER57832]

The problem is not that people don't know they can't afford something. The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

And how did an entire nation get into that mindset?

Because we have a nation of companies that have steered our entire economy to the worship of growth.

And, when you realize that, fundamentally, most of that growth is actually based on the availability of cheap fuel (not just abundance, but cheap abundance and ready availability), then its no coodincidence that our economy, the world economy is beginning to tank now.

Blaming the consumer is a lot like blaming the girl who gets raped for wearing a short skirt.

[Night Strike]

the people got conned??? how?

Typically the con artist knows something the person who got conned doesn't. If a bank knows they can lend to someone who won't be able to pay the bills, and the person who can't pay the bills doesn't know that, then we have some real fucking stupid people in this country. Oh wait, that's right, we do have some real fucking stupid people in this country.

Yes. Yes we do have really stupid people in this country. Let's assume for a second that every single person that ended up with one of the toxic mortgages was a complete idiot with no idea how to keep a handle on their spending. This isn't actually the case (the payment plans would often be changed from what the person thought they were signing on for), but whatever, we'll assume it. People make poor investment decisions all the time, and that doesn't tank the US economy. The part that ended up completely fucking everyone over was the con artists then selling their risk for a little more than they had loaned out in the first place. They tricked a lot of fairly intelligent people into buying these steaming turds by using some bullshit economic wizardry to turn these shitty loans into packaged AAA investments. They were making pure money off of every single loan they made, while knowing that they were fucking over the people they were loaning to (who would never be able to pay the money back) and the people they were selling the loan to (who had no chance of actually making a profit). From a profit standpoint, they would be crazy not to lend every idiot with dollar signs in his eyes whatever he's asking for. Then, when the music stops playing and there aren't any fucking chairs and everyone is shitting their pants, the US government has to jump in and spend trillions of dollars to avoid an economic Armageddon.

Years later we're blaming the idiots, the laws remain basically unchanged, and now the same thing is going to happen with student loans. I think it's time that we stopped blaming the suckers of the world and start pointing the fingers at the assholes who engineered this labyrinthine bullshit, who are currently snorting coke through hundred dollar bills.

I hope you realize that basically everything you stated in that post was because the government passed laws and regulations that essentially forced it (or at least encouraged it) to happen. The government changed the rules so that lenders had to provide 10% of their loans to sub-prime borrowers instead of 1%. The government allowed those bad loans to be bundled and sold to other lenders, including the government itself, with the government saying they would guarantee those loans if they ever went bad. If the government is going to guarantee that you will make money despite any risks, who wouldn't make sure they got the money? Yes, people who couldn't afford the loans shouldn't have gotten them, but the government was a major player in this entire situation, not an innocent bystander.

The problem is not that people don't know they can't afford something. The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

And how did an entire nation get into that mindset?

Because we have a nation of companies that have steered our entire economy to the worship of growth.

And, when you realize that, fundamentally, most of that growth is actually based on the availability of cheap fuel (not just abundance, but cheap abundance and ready availability), then its no coodincidence that our economy, the world economy is beginning to tank now.

Blaming the consumer is a lot like blaming the girl who gets raped for wearing a short skirt.

The entire nation got that way because they were raised to think that decisions didn't have consequences. They were taught, and continue to be taught, that if you make bad decisions, the government will take care of you. We do not have a safety net in this country: we have a guarantor of bailouts of bad decisions and irresponsibility. And that's on both the individual and corporate levels.

[thegreekdog]

The problem is not that people don't know they can't afford something. The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

And how did an entire nation get into that mindset?

Because we have a nation of companies that have steered our entire economy to the worship of growth.

Blaming the consumer is a lot like blaming the girl who gets raped for wearing a short skirt.

Again, the assumption you're making is that people make purchasing decisions because they want to help the economy. When is that ever the case? If I buy a car it's not because I'm trying to help the economy, it's because I want a fucking car. No one is going out to buy a house they can't afford because they want to help the economy.

Let me turn your example around. It's like when a guy (the consumer) has sex with a girl, doesn't use protection (buying above his means), gets the girl pregnant (can't afford the house), and then complains about having to pay child support once the girl has the baby. It's irresponsible nonsense. Are we blaming the girl because she was tempting and tantalizing him? Do we blame society because it imparts that having sex with a girl is good for perpetuating the species? Come on. This is common sense, not higher economic thinking.

And then you, or someone else, are going to say "But TGD, companies put out advertisements and the culture..." - f*ck that shit. Seriously. If I can restrain myself, so can everyone else. Rick Santelli hit the nail on the head four years ago and Ed Rendell echoed it - we're a nation of pussies and whiners who do not want to take responsibility for our actions. That goes for the stupid consumer and the bank that took advantage and the corrupt politicians who bailed them all out.

[Juan_Bottom]

[huamulan]

The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

Is this a characteristic specific to American/Western people? In which countries do you see ordinary citizens mass exhibiting self-control? And even in poorest Africa you will find people who feel entitled to a better electricity supply, community support in financing marriage etc.

I believe both qualities you mentioned there are human traits, not American traits. The difference between America and, say, Somalia is just the level at which people set their standards.

The entire nation got that way because they were raised to think that decisions didn't have consequences. They were taught, and continue to be taught, that if you make bad decisions, the government will take care of you. We do not have a safety net in this country: we have a guarantor of bailouts of bad decisions and irresponsibility. And that's on both the individual and corporate levels.

The entire nation has been taught this while you have somehow managed to avoid falling into the pit of stupidity?

I would imagine that there are plenty of other people in the USA who feel the exact same way you do, unless you are just a being of far higher mental lucidity than those other mortals.

[BigBallinStalin]

Haha! He's joking, right?

[thegreekdog]

Is this a characteristic specific to American/Western people? In which countries do you see ordinary citizens mass exhibiting self-control? And even in poorest Africa you will find people who feel entitled to a better electricity supply, community support in financing marriage etc.

I believe both qualities you mentioned there are human traits, not American traits. The difference between America and, say, Somalia is just the level at which people set their standards.

I don't know. I'm not qualified to discuss the characteristics of Africans.

[Juan_Bottom]

Haha! He's joking, right?

Rebuttal:

[Army of GOD]

so is this thread just going to turn into image macros of lame quotes?

[Juan_Bottom]

That Lincoln quote is too f*cking real for the likes of you. Go back to suckling yo momma's money teet, child.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it.

[AndyDufresne]

I believe I shall never be old enough to speak without embarrassment when I have nothing to talk about.

I found your website: http://www.notable-quotes.com/l/lincoln_abraham_ii.html


--Andy

[Juan_Bottom]

Yeah, but you gotta keep the context, yo!

I believe I shall never be old enough to speak without embarrassment when I have nothing to talk about.

[thegreekdog]

so is this thread just going to turn into image macros of lame quotes?

Arguably, Lincoln single handedly did more to make sure wealth would be accumulated in the hands of the few than any other president.

[Juan_Bottom]

Arguably indeed.

[Phatscotty]

The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

That is the goal of what the public education system strives for, that is what they produce and what we are trained to be, whether people want to admit it or not. Emotions are allowed to run wild and even encouraged, and we neglect passing on anything close to actual discipline (getting suspended from school can be easily justified by the suspended as a good thing these days). Teacher's do not have the power to punish children anymore, and it's more likely that students physically attack their teachers. And then we pulled the trifecta, tearing God out of every inch of every school, while failing to reinstall any workable system of morals in it's place.

I think the sense of entitlement can also be attributed to being born into debt like we are. Knowing that previous generations have already blown thru trillions of dollars in your name, that's not going to turn out so well either....

[thegreekdog]

The problem is that people in this country lack self-control and almost feel entitled to have certain things.

That is the goal of what the public education system strives for, whether people want to admit it or not. Emotions are allowed to run wild and even encouraged, and we neglect passing on anything close to actual discipline (getting suspended from school can be easily justified by the suspended as a good thing these days). Teacher's do not have the power to punish children anymore, and it's more likely that students physically attack their teachers. And then we pulled the trifecta, tearing God out of every inch of every school, while failing to reinstall any workable system of morals in it's place.

I think the sense of entitlement can also be attributed to being born into debt like we are. Knowing that previous generations have already blown thru trillions of dollars in your name, that's not going to turn out so well either....

I don't think those are reasons. There is not a correlation between public schooling and lacking self-control and feeling entitled.