Government Money to Discriminatory Schools

[jimboston]

Question... why would anyone want to go to a private school that doesn't want them or accept their lifestyle?

I half answered this above. Without knowing the individual circumstances, I can only speculate. However, few people are fortunate enough to have an ideal school nearby. You make what trade-offs you need to find the best choice available.

To be more specific, if the only other choice were a program in a gang ridden area or just a really poor program, then one might choose this. For me.. while I am sending my son to a Roman Catholic program despite not agreeing with the Roman Catholic church, I would draw the line at much more of a compromise. (and even in this case, will likely not have my son continue past the first few years there).

My question was not really to u... really to the gay parents.

If I was gay and I found out my kid's school preached against gayness... I would pull him from the school.
(Unless it was public... that's different. Some public funding / voucher is not that same as a public school.)

[Frigidus]

So because one ultra-oppressive state failed that means all forms of oppression, no matter how minor, will also fail. Wut. What about Rome, Ancient China, pre-modern USA - they were all oppressive and yet they did extremely well for themselves, affording their citizens higher standards of living than was the norm for their times and leaving behind legacies that would persist for thousands of years.

The issue isn't that they will fail, the issue is that oppression is something that we should try to avoid. Do you seriously disagree with that?

I am also annoyed by the fact that the mandate for the school system keeps growing. They used to just have to educate kids. Now they provide counseling, health care, food, etc. etc. This is part of the reason they suck at education. They should focus on their core job.

It isn't like the teachers are taking shifts in the nurse's office. I don't see how they addition of counselors and cafeteria workers affects the quality of education overall.

[PLAYER57832]

Could they not take the money going to private schools and spend it on literally anything? I don't know the intricacies of budgeting, but there is some general fund that the money can be put to.

From what I know, its pretty specific. For example, children at the local private schools with mild special needs can get help through the public special education program. ( the private schools generally cannot and do not have to take the most severely disabled).

Also, as I said earlier, my son's school gets some textbooks from the public system, on loan. (we had to sign papers agreeing to take care of the books, basically). The nurse is shared, but I am not sure if she is paid by both schools or just the public system.

I understand, but don't know the specific details, that there is some money given directly that is supposed to support the general curriculum, to be used to buy supplies, but also to help pay for teachers not specifically religious education teachers. That is where it can get "dicey", because its hard to say where lines are drawn. BUT.. this formula will vary by state.

[Upgrayedd]

Too many quotes to include.. see the above dialogue for context

So because one ultra-oppressive state failed that means all forms of oppression, no matter how minor, will also fail. Wut. What about Rome, Ancient China, pre-modern USA - they were all oppressive and yet they did extremely well for themselves, affording their citizens higher standards of living than was the norm for their times and leaving behind legacies that would persist for thousands of years.

Pretty much exactly the opposite of what I said. I said it is important to fight small oppressions before they get too big to counter.

You, to contrast, seem bent on claiming that a school refusing to admit a 3 year old from a homosexual family should be able to get whatever tax dollars they want, that opposing that somehow makes us the "oppressors".

It doesn't matter how little the tax payment is, the point is if they are promoting religion, they should not be getting any tax dollars.

Nazi oppression didn't start small and work it's way up. In fact the Nazi's had made it perfectly obvious what they planned on doing before they came into power. Theirs was not a case of citizens ignoring abuses until it came their turn to be abused - it was a case of citizens revelling in the abuse, affording Nazi's more and more power as their tenure wore on, until finally being crushed by Soviet Russia (an even more oppressive regime).

The issue isn't that they will fail, the issue is that oppression is something that we should try to avoid. Do you seriously disagree with that?

When the oppression is minor and barely inconveniences anyone, such as in the case of this gay 3 year old not being allowed in a private school, there is no problem. ANd that is all I'm discussing here, you're the ones coming up with bizarre, innacurate historical analogies.

[PLAYER57832]

My question was not really to u... really to the gay parents.

If I was gay and I found out my kid's school preached against gayness... I would pull him from the school.

I realize that, but don't think they will be posting here . That said, I actually have had conversations with or heard responses from various people, including a couple of homosexual families. So, that is where my response came from.

Still, yeah, I would agree.

(Unless it was public... that's different. Some public funding / voucher is not that same as a public school.)

This distinction confuses me. What do you mean by this?

[PLAYER57832]

[

The issue isn't that they will fail, the issue is that oppression is something that we should try to avoid. Do you seriously disagree with that?

When the oppression is minor and barely inconveniences anyone, such as in the case of this gay 3 year old not being allowed in a private school, there is no problem. ANd that is all I'm discussing here, you're the ones coming up with bizarre, innacurate historical analogies.

Your point is just utterly invalid. Small oppression does matter. It sets the stage for the big stuff.

And, well.. there is a particular poem that specifically disputes your prior point.

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[Upgrayedd]

Small oppression does matter. It sets the stage for the big stuff.

That is entirely contextual and there's no inherent truth to it.

[Frigidus]

So who's the judge that we go to that decides what amount of oppression is OK and not OK? Since we're only supposed to be angry about things that directly affect us, does that mean that since my life's pretty decent I should just stop bitching? Does this also mean that people should stop whining about gay marriage since it doesn't really have anything to do with them?

[jimboston]

I am also annoyed by the fact that the mandate for the school system keeps growing. They used to just have to educate kids. Now they provide counseling, health care, food, etc. etc. This is part of the reason they suck at education. They should focus on their core job.

It isn't like the teachers are taking shifts in the nurse's office. I don't see how they addition of counselors and cafeteria workers affects the quality of education overall.

The school's focus on other things besides education.

This is a distraction.

Remove it.

[jimboston]

(Unless it was public... that's different. Some public funding / voucher is not that same as a public school.)

This distinction confuses me. What do you mean by this?

Read it again... if still confused, then move on.

[Woodruff]

LOL.

Nazis didn't come to power until 1933 and by 1943 discrimination was the LEAST of Germany's problems

from what i have heard, there was a european holocaust that was run by the germans during world war 2 (so it was going on during 1943).

it was so serious that in europe they still arrest and punish people who were involved in killing jews at this time. it sounds to me that discrimination caused some fairly big problems during the nazi's leadership.

1. You need to learn what discrimination means
2. You need to learn what holocaust means
3. You need to learn what context means

P.S. You should also look into the fact that not only Jews died during WW2

It's always entertaining when someone bothers to have two of their multis argue with one another.

[Woodruff]

This school should not receive any Federal tax money. As an aside, I also don't understand why they would reject this, given they "could save the kid"...shouldn't they be thinking that way?
http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/School-rejects-3-year-old-because-parents-are-gay/-/9153728/15665304/-/aadto3/-/index.html

Maybe the "gayness" with "infect" the other students?

Question... why would anyone want to go to a private school that doesn't want them or accept their lifestyle?

A good question. Maybe it was a really good academic school or something (at the age of three! <grin>). Outside of that, I'd have to agree with you.

[Woodruff]

I am also annoyed by the fact that the mandate for the school system keeps growing. They used to just have to educate kids. Now they provide counseling, health care, food, etc. etc. This is part of the reason they suck at education. They should focus on their core job.

I can agree with this, somewhat. I don't necessarily think it's why public schools can sometimes suck at education (I put that squarely on two facets...lack of parental involvement and governmental guidance on what makes a good school), because teachers aren't taking care of the health care or the food (though good teachers do provide SOME counseling, I presume not the type you're referring to, mostly). Where I agree with you is that those things you note do cost more. And while I tend to think it's a good thing that those things are provided in schools (food and counseling, in particular) because of the lacking in those things from some homes, I certainly can accept the argument that schools could not be in that part of "the business".

[jimboston]

They do accept children who are not Roman Catholic, though we have to pay more money.

This is a misleading statement.

You don't pay more because you're not Roman Catholic.

You pay more because you are not a member of the parish.

Roman Catholic's who belong to another parish would also pay more than a local parishioner.

Note... the discount to parishioner's is a reflection of the fact that they make donations to the church weekly.

(or at least they are supposed to... and many parishes track how much based on the envelope which people use.)

(Technically a catholic is supposed to donate 10% of his/her income to his/her parish... though around here very few actually do that much.)

This might be true where you live, but not here, probably because there have been a lot of organizational changes and flux here. (but that is just a guess). At any rate, yes, it is because the local churches contribute to the school. Anyway, my point was not that the extra fee is inappropriate, but that I am willing to pay it.

We are eligible for some scholarships, though. (those not administered by the Parish or Diocese) and we can "pay ahead" through what they call a "script" program -- where we buy essentially gift cards (at cost) that we can use in various stores. Various stores kick back a percentage to the school account.. Walmart is 1% (not that I shop there any ... ), our local grocery store varies from 3%-sometimes 5% specials. ETC. (I think a lot of private schools do this now.. its a good way to earn money without it really costing anything, IF you only buy cards for stores where you really would shop).

So there may be more than one church.

You're missing the point.

A person who identified themselves as Catholic... but who was not a member of one of the Parishes that is associated with this school... would pay the additional fee.

You become a member of a Parish by signing up...AND but getting a set of donation envelopes that you drop weekly when you go to a church.

You can be "Catholic"... but not sign up for envelopes... and you would pay the higher fee.

I AM NOT WRONG.

THIS IS HOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WORKS... HERE IN NEW ENGLAND... AND ALSO IN PA.

[jimboston]

This school should not receive any Federal tax money. As an aside, I also don't understand why they would reject this, given they "could save the kid"...shouldn't they be thinking that way?
http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/School-rejects-3-year-old-because-parents-are-gay/-/9153728/15665304/-/aadto3/-/index.html

Maybe the "gayness" with "infect" the other students?

Question... why would anyone want to go to a private school that doesn't want them or accept their lifestyle?

A good question. Maybe it was a really good academic school or something (at the age of three! <grin>). Outside of that, I'd have to agree with you.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if he/she was getting picked on because he/she had gay parents.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if your family was excluded from social functions (birthday parties... play dates... etc.) because the other parent found out he/she had gay parents.

Any upside on educational value is lost because of the negativity in the social arena.

[Woodruff]

This school should not receive any Federal tax money. As an aside, I also don't understand why they would reject this, given they "could save the kid"...shouldn't they be thinking that way?
http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/School-rejects-3-year-old-because-parents-are-gay/-/9153728/15665304/-/aadto3/-/index.html

Maybe the "gayness" with "infect" the other students?

Question... why would anyone want to go to a private school that doesn't want them or accept their lifestyle?

A good question. Maybe it was a really good academic school or something (at the age of three! <grin>). Outside of that, I'd have to agree with you.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if he/she was getting picked on because he/she had gay parents.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if your family was excluded from social functions (birthday parties... play dates... etc.) because the other parent found out he/she had gay parents.

Any upside on educational value is lost because of the negativity in the social arena.

While I personally agree with you on that, apparently, these parents didn't.

[jimboston]

I am also annoyed by the fact that the mandate for the school system keeps growing. They used to just have to educate kids. Now they provide counseling, health care, food, etc. etc. This is part of the reason they suck at education. They should focus on their core job.

I can agree with this, somewhat. I don't necessarily think it's why public schools can sometimes suck at education (I put that squarely on two facets...lack of parental involvement and governmental guidance on what makes a good school), because teachers aren't taking care of the health care or the food (though good teachers do provide SOME counseling, I presume not the type you're referring to, mostly). Where I agree with you is that those things you note do cost more. And while I tend to think it's a good thing that those things are provided in schools (food and counseling, in particular) because of the lacking in those things from some homes, I certainly can accept the argument that schools could not be in that part of "the business".

I have done A LOT of business with the Boston Public Schools.

Do you know that they have as many "administrative" employees as they have "educational" employees?

This is ridiculous... and it is caused in part by the fact that there are so many State and Federal mandates on the schools... that they need people to manage and track all kinds of things that really do not increase the value of the educational experience.

Large school systems become bureaucracies that are self-perpetuating. The average administrative employee's job is often soley to justify their job and paycheck. "Look what we did! Look what we accomplished! Can we increase our budget?" Meanwhile, the students get ignored.

These extra functions that we direct our public schools to perform not only distract from the administration's job of providing a place for children to learn... they also make it harder for US (the people. the parents, the taxpayers) to figure out the true cost of things. For example... free school breakfast and lunch... that hits the budget for the school... but it REALLY is a form of WELFARE... it should be provided not by the school but instead through the welfare system.

[jimboston]

While I personally agree with you on that, apparently, these parents didn't.

Thanks.

If their point in making this public was solely to point out the "unfairness" of the fact that this school gets some Federal money... but at the same time discriminates... then perhaps there is value in making ithis story public.

If their point in making this public was to bitch and cry and get on TV... they should get a life.

Did these parents have any problem with this private school getting some Federal dollars BEFORE they were rejected??? I'm sure the private school has 'discriminated' against many people in the past... people from other religious denominations? people with learning disabilities they thought they couldn't serve properly? people with physical disabilites that might be 'harder' to serve? Private schools give out a lot of rejections and often don't give the reason. (I'm surprised they were stupid enough to be so blatant about their reason this time.)

I personally am torn about the idea of private schools getting funding.

(Though really I don't think ANY school should get FEDERAL funding, because I think the Federal DOE should be much smaller than it is today... should not give money to ANY school... and its' sole purpose should be to study and vet and share ideas about new educational techniques or strategies... etc.)

[PLAYER57832]

They do accept children who are not Roman Catholic, though we have to pay more money.

This is a misleading statement.

You don't pay more because you're not Roman Catholic.

You pay more because you are not a member of the parish.

Roman Catholic's who belong to another parish would also pay more than a local parishioner.

Note... the discount to parishioner's is a reflection of the fact that they make donations to the church weekly.

(or at least they are supposed to... and many parishes track how much based on the envelope which people use.)

(Technically a catholic is supposed to donate 10% of his/her income to his/her parish... though around here very few actually do that much.)

This might be true where you live, but not here, probably because there have been a lot of organizational changes and flux here. (but that is just a guess). At any rate, yes, it is because the local churches contribute to the school. Anyway, my point was not that the extra fee is inappropriate, but that I am willing to pay it.

We are eligible for some scholarships, though. (those not administered by the Parish or Diocese) and we can "pay ahead" through what they call a "script" program -- where we buy essentially gift cards (at cost) that we can use in various stores. Various stores kick back a percentage to the school account.. Walmart is 1% (not that I shop there any ... ), our local grocery store varies from 3%-sometimes 5% specials. ETC. (I think a lot of private schools do this now.. its a good way to earn money without it really costing anything, IF you only buy cards for stores where you really would shop).

So there may be more than one church.

You're missing the point.

A person who identified themselves as Catholic... but who was not a member of one of the Parishes that is associated with this school... would pay the additional fee.

You become a member of a Parish by signing up...AND but getting a set of donation envelopes that you drop weekly when you go to a church.

You can be "Catholic"... but not sign up for envelopes... and you would pay the higher fee.

I AM NOT WRONG.

THIS IS HOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WORKS... HERE IN NEW ENGLAND... AND ALSO IN PA.

Yeah, got sidetracked there. Your basic point was that they charge more because I & my son are not part of the sponsoring church and so we have to contribute ourself at least a portion of what might come from the sponsoring church.
This is true. It might have sounded like I was saying that the church/school were discriminating. What I really meant was just that it took more effort on our part... that we had to want to go there perhaps a tad more than Roman Catholic parents did (not wording that last part well). The extra fee is, as you noted, not discrimination, just equity.

[PLAYER57832]

While I personally agree with you on that, apparently, these parents didn't.

Thanks.

If their point in making this public was solely to point out the "unfairness" of the fact that this school gets some Federal money... but at the same time discriminates... then perhaps there is value in making ithis story public.

If their point in making this public was to bitch and cry and get on TV... they should get a life.

I agree with this, though I suspect the situation might have been set up by a community that had previously noted a problem.. and needed a family to be the "test". So, individually, they might not have complained before, but that doesn't mean it wasn't really an issue for the area/community.

[jimboston]

Yeah, got sidetracked there. Your basic point was that they charge more because I & my son are not part of the sponsoring church and so we have to contribute ourself at least a portion of what might come from the sponsoring church.
This is true. It might have sounded like I was saying that the church/school were discriminating. What I really meant was just that it took more effort on our part... that we had to want to go there perhaps a tad more than Roman Catholic parents did (not wording that last part well). The extra fee is, as you noted, not discrimination, just equity.

Not all Catholics get into Catholic schools.

I wanted to send my daughter to a well respected school local to me.

There is a waiting list.

We did not get accepted.

We had to go for an "interview" and fill out a lengthy application.

We did not get accepted even though both myself and my wife went to Catholic schools... and my mother-in-law helps out at a church (albeit a different parish)... and I was an altar-boy... and we had a good recommendation from a Priest (who is now a bishop).

The main reason... we were new to the area and new to the parish and hence had no long-standing involvement in this particular parish.

It's not harder because you are not catholic.

The difficulty involved in getting into or not getting into a specific catholic school is based entirely on the popularity of that school. Another catholic school 2 towns over would take anyone, because their classes are not full and there is no waiting list.

so "wah"... stop crying

[jimboston]

While I personally agree with you on that, apparently, these parents didn't.

Thanks.

If their point in making this public was solely to point out the "unfairness" of the fact that this school gets some Federal money... but at the same time discriminates... then perhaps there is value in making ithis story public.

If their point in making this public was to bitch and cry and get on TV... they should get a life.

I agree with this, though I suspect the situation might have been set up by a community that had previously noted a problem.. and needed a family to be the "test". So, individually, they might not have complained before, but that doesn't mean it wasn't really an issue for the area/community.

On what do you base this suspicion?

[PLAYER57832]

This school should not receive any Federal tax money. As an aside, I also don't understand why they would reject this, given they "could save the kid"...shouldn't they be thinking that way?
http://www.koat.com/news/new-mexico/albuquerque/School-rejects-3-year-old-because-parents-are-gay/-/9153728/15665304/-/aadto3/-/index.html

Maybe the "gayness" with "infect" the other students?

Question... why would anyone want to go to a private school that doesn't want them or accept their lifestyle?

A good question. Maybe it was a really good academic school or something (at the age of three! <grin>). Outside of that, I'd have to agree with you.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if he/she was getting picked on because he/she had gay parents.

It wouldn't be a good place for your child to grow... if your family was excluded from social functions (birthday parties... play dates... etc.) because the other parent found out he/she had gay parents.

Any upside on educational value is lost because of the negativity in the social arena.

To a point, this is true (and I agree, by-the-way), but note that this was the exact situation many black children faced with integration. They had their school life..and support at home, both seperate.

[PLAYER57832]

While I personally agree with you on that, apparently, these parents didn't.

Thanks.

If their point in making this public was solely to point out the "unfairness" of the fact that this school gets some Federal money... but at the same time discriminates... then perhaps there is value in making ithis story public.

If their point in making this public was to bitch and cry and get on TV... they should get a life.

I agree with this, though I suspect the situation might have been set up by a community that had previously noted a problem.. and needed a family to be the "test". So, individually, they might not have complained before, but that doesn't mean it wasn't really an issue for the area/community.

On what do you base this suspicion?

Because it is a usual pattern. I don't know that it happened in this particular case, but it is essentially how most discrimination cases happen. A group hears about a school/restaurant/other place discriminating against blacks/latinos or, in this case homosexuals... and then the group finds a family willing to "make the test". I mean, among other issues, you have to have a child otherwise able to attend the school who then gets turned down to make a case. If this dies off, is just a news story, then maybe not. If it winds up being more.. then maybe. Or, it could all just be cooincidence. That is, maybe this couple really did just want their child to attend this school.

[PLAYER57832]

The difficulty involved in getting into or not getting into a specific catholic school is based entirely on the popularity of that school. Another catholic school 2 towns over would take anyone, because their classes are not full and there is no waiting list.

so "wah"... stop crying

This would vary with the school.
And .. If you think I was crying, please reread. My statement was that I am sending my child to a school that promotes beliefs not my own... and am paying more to do so, because I think he will otherwise get a better education. I was simply explaining why someone might send a child to a school with beliefs not their own.