Why Stiffer Gun Control/Bannings Are In Order

[Woodruff]

Ok, I'm back but only for this one topic. I knew there would probably be some really good conversation here about it, and I frankly didn't want to miss that.

First of all, gun banning is just a silly and useless idea. It goes against our Constitution and I don't believe it would stop these sorts of incidents anyway.

I do believe it is reasonable to have a discussion on gun control. In fact, I don't think you can legitimately discuss this issue WITHOUT having a discussion about gun control as well.

The idea of putting more guns into the schools is the sort of insanity I could only expect from a hero-wannabe like Phatscotty. That is an idiotic idea, truly. And I'm trained in handling weapons, remember.

The discussion that NEEDS to happen, and sadly ISN'T happening, is the discussion regarding how mental disorders are viewed in this nation. I have no idea how it is in other countries, as I have never dealt with it even while living overseas. But here in the United States, mental disorders are viewed in such a way that there is a very serious stigma associated with them. It's very counterproductive when someone can potentially lose their job for seeking help on their own from a mental health professional (and yes, this is in fact a quite common situation). It's ludicrous. THIS discussion is the one that absolutely CAN make a difference in preventing these sorts of events. Here are some important links I gleaned from another website:

http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=333
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=336
http://placer.networkofcare.org/mh/library/article.aspx?id=337

It is crazy to me that it's perfectly ok for someone with back problems to go in to a doctor and ask for (for instance) Codeine or SOMA or Flexeril yet if you are seriously depressed and have thoughts of suicide, the last thing you want to do is go in to a psychiatrist and ask for a prescription for anti-depressants. Asking for help of this nature is routinely viewed as a bad thing. That's fucked up.

[Phatscotty]

- From 2002 to 2012, 99 people were killed** in the U.S. during spree shootings. The population of USA is 314 million. In other words, 0.3 per 1 million Americans were killed in spree shootings. Firearms regulation in USA is considered Permissive by the University of Sydney School of Public Health. [/list]

...


** figure is 276 since 1984, assumption of even body count spread over period of years and adjusted to 99 for 2002-2012 time period[/size]

I don't think that's an accurate assumption:

Hmm, looks to me like assault deaths in the US are declining just fine as it is. With it at an all-time low since the 60s even in spite of the assault weapons ban expiring in 2004, it seems safe to say that gun availability has little to do with the issue.

- From 2002 to 2012, 99 people were killed** in the U.S. during spree shootings. The population of USA is 314 million. In other words, 0.3 per 1 million Americans were killed in spree shootings. Firearms regulation in USA is considered Permissive by the University of Sydney School of Public Health. [/list]

...


** figure is 276 since 1984, assumption of even body count spread over period of years and adjusted to 99 for 2002-2012 time period[/size]

I don't think that's an accurate assumption:

Okay, if 100% of spree shooting deaths occurred during 2002-2012, and none occurred from 1984-2002, then the per-capita spree shooting fatality rate increases to 0.9 per 1 million, versus Finland's 4.8 per 1 million. That seems tenuous but I'll concede that point, if you like.

For comparison: in general, there is a positive correlation between gun ownership and homicide rates (in general, not just considering spree shootings).

Firstly, correlation doesn't prove causation. You should know that.

Secondly, isn't this that "study" that was debunked a long time back because it counted suicides as homicides?

Great points. Simply put, gun sales and gun ownership have been rising very fast over the last 5 years, and the murder rate has been dropping even faster over the last 5 years (despite the Great Recession)

Check and mate

[Phatscotty]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

[Woodruff]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

Did you even read the post, or did you only find the one sentence that mentioned your dumbass name and ignore the f*ck out of the rest of it? I mean, seriously...the whole latter half of my post ANSWERED THAT FUCKING QUESTION.

Jesus Christ, you're a deluded f*ck. That certainly hasn't changed.

You're probably one of the assholes that doesn't believe in paying for state mental health care because FREEDOM!!!!!!

[Phatscotty]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

Did you even read the post, or did you only find the one sentence that mentioned your dumbass name and ignore the f*ck out of the rest of it? I mean, seriously...the whole latter half of my post ANSWERED THAT FUCKING QUESTION.

Jesus Christ, you're a deluded f*ck. That certainly hasn't changed.

It's a simple question.

anyone else want to try what Woodruff total failed at? We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

[Woodruff]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

Did you even read the post, or did you only find the one sentence that mentioned your dumbass name and ignore the f*ck out of the rest of it? I mean, seriously...the whole latter half of my post ANSWERED THAT FUCKING QUESTION.

Jesus Christ, you're a deluded f*ck. That certainly hasn't changed.

It's a simple question.

Yes, and the answer lies in the post you're still fucking ignoring, you twit.

[Woodruff]

We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

To answer the question you seem to be trying to pretend was your original question...

It's a brilliant idea to have handguns where gang-banging teenagers roam. That's simply brilliant. Where will the teachers keep these handguns where they can access them within their classrooms but where the students cannot?

I know your hero-worship of the handgun is extensive, but I have to repeat what I've stated before in my belief that your actual personal experience with handguns is seriously limited, if existent at all.

[Phatscotty]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

Did you even read the post, or did you only find the one sentence that mentioned your dumbass name and ignore the f*ck out of the rest of it? I mean, seriously...the whole latter half of my post ANSWERED THAT FUCKING QUESTION.

Jesus Christ, you're a deluded f*ck. That certainly hasn't changed.

It's a simple question.

Yes, and the answer lies in the post you're still fucking ignoring, you twit.

It's a simple question, Woodruff, and no, you did not answer it. I think you are scared because you are unable to answer it, and you got caught with your pants down (again).

I think you are just lying, so you can bully and vent your hatred and your intolerance and try to fill that hollow place in your black heart. You are making the angriest of red-faced knuckle-dragging whiskey-breath Republicans looks like angels

[Woodruff]

Well Woodruff, you may say guns in schools is insane, but you can try to give a good answer to the same question Macbone has not gotten around to yet....

What other alternatives exist that can prevent a massacre like this one?

Did you even read the post, or did you only find the one sentence that mentioned your dumbass name and ignore the f*ck out of the rest of it? I mean, seriously...the whole latter half of my post ANSWERED THAT FUCKING QUESTION.

Jesus Christ, you're a deluded f*ck. That certainly hasn't changed.

It's a simple question.

Yes, and the answer lies in the post you're still fucking ignoring, you twit.

It's a simple question, Woodruff, and no, you did not answer it. I think you are scared because you are unable to answer it, and you got caught with your pants down (again).

I did answer it. I'm sorry that you're incapable of reading your own posts, but you should go back and take a look...if you can comprehend the writing there, you might find it fascinating stuff, as it would give you a glimmer...just a glimpse...into your own mind. It's quoted here...so just go up to the top of this post and read it. Simple enough, really.

I think you are just lying, so you can bully and vent your hatred and your intolerance and try to fill that hollow place in your black heart. You are making the angriest of red-faced knuckle-dragging whiskey-breath Republicans looks like angels

No, I don't make you look like an angel at all.

[Phatscotty]

We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

To answer the question you seem to be trying to pretend was your original question...

It's a brilliant idea to have handguns where gang-banging teenagers roam. That's simply brilliant. Where will the teachers keep these handguns where they can access them within their classrooms but where the students cannot?

It sounds like you are implying that the teacher will just leave the gun laying out on the desk?

[Iliad]

not to mention, all this BS about tougher gun laws totally lets the murderer off the hook/blames something other than the murderer. It's the person using the object, not the object.

OK, that's a fair point, but it's not a position I'm advancing or willing to defend since it's not a solutions-based statement.

my solution based statement: more guns in schools

You're just a caricature.

And giving guns to teachers is an awful idea. Incredibly awful, risky action that would bring even more violence. Classrooms are not the place for guns.


Not to mention the fiscal side. You want to train, equip and upkeep 1-2 armed teachers? In every public school in America? I'm sure that'll be fiscally sustainable. But why stop at 1-2 armed teachers. Why not just have a squad of marines jogging around every school instead. That's obviously preferable to considering cutting back gun laws.


I'm forced to agree with the professional opinion of Woodruff.

[Woodruff]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

[Woodruff]

We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

To answer the question you seem to be trying to pretend was your original question...

It's a brilliant idea to have handguns where gang-banging teenagers roam. That's simply brilliant. Where will the teachers keep these handguns where they can access them within their classrooms but where the students cannot?

It sounds like you are implying that the teacher will just leave the gun laying out on the desk?

It would only sound like that to a lunatic. Were you going to try to address the issue with any seriousness? For instance, perhaps you could answer the question I asked instead of trying to build up a strawman. That'd be a nice change of pace, but unfortunately not one I believe you're capable of.

[Phatscotty]

not to mention, all this BS about tougher gun laws totally lets the murderer off the hook/blames something other than the murderer. It's the person using the object, not the object.

OK, that's a fair point, but it's not a position I'm advancing or willing to defend since it's not a solutions-based statement.

my solution based statement: more guns in schools

You're just a caricature.

And giving guns to teachers is an awful idea. Incredibly awful, risky action that would bring even more violence. Classrooms are not the place for guns.


Not to mention the fiscal side. You want to train, equip and upkeep 1-2 armed teachers? In every public school in America? I'm sure that'll be fiscally sustainable. But why stop at 1-2 armed teachers. Why not just have a squad of marines jogging around every school instead. That's obviously preferable to considering cutting back gun laws.


I'm forced to agree with the professional opinion of Woodruff.

How would it bring more violence? Please explain your statement

Training and equipping teachers is a lot cheaper than hiring 1-2 extra security guards, if you want to talk about the fiscal side. I would bet that many teachers are already trained, and already have fire-arms, and if they aren't many would do it simply because it's the right thing to do, and it will make the students safer.

[Phatscotty]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

Check and mate

[Phatscotty]

We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

To answer the question you seem to be trying to pretend was your original question...

It's a brilliant idea to have handguns where gang-banging teenagers roam. That's simply brilliant. Where will the teachers keep these handguns where they can access them within their classrooms but where the students cannot?

It sounds like you are implying that the teacher will just leave the gun laying out on the desk?

It would only sound like that to a lunatic. Were you going to try to address the issue with any seriousness? For instance, perhaps you could answer the question I asked instead of trying to build up a strawman. That'd be a nice change of pace, but unfortunately not one I believe you're capable of.

you still dodge the question, in favor of arguing from a total losers perspective. Are you almost done acting like a child?

[Woodruff]

not to mention, all this BS about tougher gun laws totally lets the murderer off the hook/blames something other than the murderer. It's the person using the object, not the object.

OK, that's a fair point, but it's not a position I'm advancing or willing to defend since it's not a solutions-based statement.

my solution based statement: more guns in schools

You're just a caricature.

And giving guns to teachers is an awful idea. Incredibly awful, risky action that would bring even more violence. Classrooms are not the place for guns.


Not to mention the fiscal side. You want to train, equip and upkeep 1-2 armed teachers? In every public school in America? I'm sure that'll be fiscally sustainable. But why stop at 1-2 armed teachers. Why not just have a squad of marines jogging around every school instead. That's obviously preferable to considering cutting back gun laws.

I'm forced to agree with the professional opinion of Woodruff.

How would it bring more violence? Please explain your statement

Training and equipping teachers is a lot cheaper than hiring 1-2 extra security guards, if you want to talk about the fiscal side. I would bet that many teachers are already trained, and already have fire-arms, and if they aren't many would do it simply because it's the right thing to do, and it will make the students safer.

Except that it wouldn't. It would decrease the violence of the extreme cases (the shootings such as this one) while exponentially increasing the potential violence of day-to-day schooling in every school in America. That's a horrible tradeoff.

[Woodruff]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

If I were a criminal about to commit some crime, I would ignore both signs. Kids in school laugh about the idea of alarm company signs on windows and things like that...even they are smart enough to recognize that a sign is meaningless. You could learn something from them.

[Woodruff]

We know that some people think teachers with guns are a bad idea, but is there anyone who can actually explain why it's a bad idea (without degenerating into gutter speak)?

To answer the question you seem to be trying to pretend was your original question...

It's a brilliant idea to have handguns where gang-banging teenagers roam. That's simply brilliant. Where will the teachers keep these handguns where they can access them within their classrooms but where the students cannot?

It sounds like you are implying that the teacher will just leave the gun laying out on the desk?

It would only sound like that to a lunatic. Were you going to try to address the issue with any seriousness? For instance, perhaps you could answer the question I asked instead of trying to build up a strawman. That'd be a nice change of pace, but unfortunately not one I believe you're capable of.

you still dodge the question, in favor of arguing from a total losers perspective. Are you almost done acting like a child?

I can only hope that someone on this site will show up to argue your position who isn't mentally retarded. That way, maybe a discussion can actually happen.

[Phatscotty]

So, you make a few assumptions.

#1, that the students would know where the gun was kept. Why in the world do you assume that?
#2 you assume that the gun would be stored out in the open?
#3 what kind of drugs are you on?

[Phatscotty]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

If I were a criminal about to commit some crime, I would ignore both signs.

You are 100% full of shit

[Woodruff]

So, you make a few assumptions.

As do you.

#1, that the students would know where the gun was kept. Why in the world do you assume that?

Because it will happen. If the handgun is going to be in a location that is accessible to the teacher in the event of a shooting of this nature, it's presence will become known. It's unavoidable over time.

#2 you assume that the gun would be stored out in the open?

Why would you assume that I'm assuming anything of the sort? That's just a stupid question on your part.

#3 what kind of drugs are you on?

Apparently, the kind of drugs that don't allow me to make up shit while ignoring everyone else's statements about a very serious situation. Maybe it just comes from the kind of foods I eat, but I sure wish you'd partake.

[Woodruff]

Anyone who believes either of these signs has any chance of preventing this sort of a tragedy is dangerously stupid.

Well, gee whiz Woodruff. If you were a criminal about to commit some crime, which one would you choose?

If I were a criminal about to commit some crime, I would ignore both signs.

You are 100% full of shit

I guess since I live in the real world, I recognize that a sign offers zero protection for a home or business. It's a useless gesture. Yes, I am serious.

[Baron Von PWN]

Another issue with teachers having guns. Think of the insurance nightmare. Think of the liability issues. Teachers are there to teach not die for you kids in some ridiculous Die hard 4 situation.

[/]

I do not understand how any level of physical threat is expected to deter the sort of person who is willing to shoot themselves in the head, could you explain that part better?