Religion is a Mental Illness

[waauw]

I think the point is that the mental illness of religion lies not with the calculating bastards at the top, but with the population who are willing to blindly follow them into atrocities because "God is on OUR side - yeeehaw I love 'Murica!"

People seek a feeling of "being special" in many variations: religion, nationality, culture, language, ...
But I do see your point.

[john9blue]

Ah the good old "no true scotsman" argument. I think that Bush wholeheartedly believed in Christianity and God, and indeed if he was batshit crazy and trying to bring about the end time prophecies of the state of Israel (and I'm not saying he was) that this would be perfectly consistent with someone who thinks that they are doing good work and they want to hasten the time when all the sinners get their punishment and all the good guys get their rewards. It makes no sense to me that more religious nuts don't take up highly dangerous hobbies and jobs so they can increase their chances of going to meet up with God early.

Just out of curiosity (and I don't have any stats on this) if you held a gun to the head of 100 devout christians, how many do you think would beg for their lives? I would bet it would be somewhere well above 80 or 90%. Why bother when they firmly believe that if I shot them they would end up in eternal paradise?

they would beg for their lives because they don't know for sure that god exists. they choose to believe and they are aware that their belief might not be true. this is why i consider atheists to be bigger believers than many theists... most atheists are very sure of their atheism and don't even recognize it as a belief, but some kind of fact-without-proof-thingy (don't ask me to explain it because it makes no sense if you actually think about it)

Yes there will always be many means of controlling people, but religion imo is the most insidious and odious and frankly shitty way of doing it. Because there have been other thefts does that mean the police should ignore it if someone steals your car? Because there's a famine in Sudan, does that mean we should stop sending aid to the famine sufferers in Ethiopia?

religion has other purposes other than a means of control...

The atheist morality line was pretty much a joke - but based around that fact that religion always wants to paint a nice easy black/white line between the bad guys and the good guys, and atheists are motivated to actually look at all the factors and circumstances before making difficult shades of grey moral judgements. The thing all atheists have in common about morality is that it comes from hard thought and debate and compassion and fairness, not an easy answer from a stone age book that doesn't even make sense to the modern world (eg. Raped a girl who is a virgin? You must pay her father 50 sheckels and marry her asap!)

you're telling me that the average atheist puts MORE thought into morality than a believer in god? and they are MORE prone to compassion? i don't think that's true at all.

[john9blue]

I see, so, the Islamic Fundamentalst vs. George Bush Bible Bashers' Crusade is preventing nuclear war?

And, religion stopped the Yank Bible-Fundamentalists from nuking Japan, twice, when the Russians could have invaded?

From the Roman Empire, through the Crusades, into the New World and recently with the United-Statsian-Empire and its 'God Bless America' motto, "religion" has been one of the extremists' favorite political tools and excuses for mass murder and genocide.

i agree (except for the whole "we shouldn't have nuked japan" nonsense)

It explains political difference all right and is an honest admission that the right is indeed about a belief in the dark side of humanity. Strange that those who believe in the dark side also claim humanity is made in the image of a pure-hearted God, whilst those that believe in a variety of God-characters tend to believe in humanity more. Seems like some of those who believe in hell are living it now. We pity you.

most christians believe that humans are inherently sinful. most leftists... well, just listen to john lennon's "imagine" some people are exceptionally delusional.

[waauw]

they would beg for their lives because they don't know for sure that god exists. they choose to believe and they are aware that their belief might not be true. this is why i consider atheists to be bigger believers than many theists... most atheists are very sure of their atheism and don't even recognize it as a belief, but some kind of fact-without-proof-thingy (don't ask me to explain it because it makes no sense if you actually think about it)

Got any statistical proof to proove your claims here? or have we landed in your imagination?

[john9blue]

Got any statistical proof to proove your claims here? or have we landed in your imagination?

well the first part is christian doctrine... and the second can be shown be going to any group of atheists and asking them whether atheism is a fact or a belief.

[waauw]

i agree (except for the whole "we shouldn't have nuked japan" nonsense)

why's that? The top generals and commanders at the time knew japan was gonna surrender anyway, whether you were gonna use the nukes or not. It was horrendous act on part of the american government.

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/db_article.php?article_id=381

most christians believe that humans are inherently sinful. most leftists... well, just listen to john lennon's "imagine" some people are exceptionally delusional.

explain to me how a newborn baby has committed a sin if you think humans are inherently sinful...

[waauw]

Got any statistical proof to proove your claims here? or have we landed in your imagination?

well the first part is christian doctrine... and the second can be shown be going to any group of atheists and asking them whether atheism is a fact or a belief.

so... that's a "no"
I'm wondering how many atheists have you spoken and how in hell do you think that number and their geographical/cultural spread for that matter is representable for most of the atheist community on the entire planet.

I, for example, am an atheist who does realise there is always an off-chance I might be wrong and who does agree that a lot of atheists base themselves on some form of faith, rather than rationality(not everyone does research on the matter)

[john9blue]

i agree (except for the whole "we shouldn't have nuked japan" nonsense)

why's that? The top generals and commanders at the time knew japan was gonna surrender anyway, whether you were gonna use the nukes or not. It was horrendous act on part of the american government.

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/db_article.php?article_id=381

the question is very morally complex and i'm sure you could find 10 sources that back up either point of view. i objected to teflon's implication that nuking japan was obviously a terrible, heartless thing to do.

explain to me how a newborn baby has committed a sin if you think humans are inherently sinful...

i'm just telling you what christians believe. personally i think all humans are born selfish... whether that's a good or bad thing depends on the situation

so... that's a "no"
I'm wondering how many atheists have you spoken and how in hell do you think that number and their geographical/cultural spread for that matter is representable for most of the atheist community on the entire planet.

i'd estimate over 100, almost all on the internet.

[waauw]

so... that's a "no"
I'm wondering how many atheists have you spoken and how in hell do you think that number and their geographical/cultural spread for that matter is representable for most of the atheist community on the entire planet.

i'd estimate over 100, almost all on the internet.

Well anyway, what I'm trying to say is you should keep in mind possible differences in atheists across different cultures.

[Teflon Kris]

What's that mean?

Are you talking about the entire spectrum of "right-wing" politics? If so, then somehow "the left" is about the Light Side of Humanity? (lolwut).

Or are you only referring to religious political groups? If so, then why lump all types of "right-wing" groups with them?

One thing is for sure, and various comments in this thread reflect it:

Right-Wing

Evil Empires. Evil Empires use belief in the dark side to maintain power and as excuses for evil (e.g. Roman Empire used Bible to create Holy Roman Catholic Empire, e.g. United Empire of America use 'God Bless America' to excuse Arab Oil Anti-Moslem Crusades and I am sure you can list a lot more ...). They will make as many people hate Islam as possible even though they are similar belief systems, with similar morality, and with a shared respect for the same prophet. They will twist their ideology so much that they help the people who killed their prophet in a war against people who believe in their prophet (not surprising that those people in a different continent can make the difference in their elections to prevent a less twisted ideology influence the world*). They will even claim their religion prevents nuclear war after they drop the bomb, twice lol (they are 99% religious apparently, and they dropped the bomb so no logic can claim the bomb-dropping was prevented when it happened).



most christians believe that humans are inherently sinful

Left-Wing

Believes in the Light Side. Whether 'religion' is part of the belief or not. Certainly, plenty of functionning societies through the history of mankind have managed to exist in peace and co-operation with or without religion. And, those who protest against wars, those who strike, are usually a mix of atheists and people with spiritual beliefs. Even in slightly right-wing England, the church have been known to criticise right-wing greed policies.

So, what I am saying is, religion is not the problem, the right-wing is the problem. Their ideology of selfishness and greed will twist whatever they can for their own power-thirst, and religion is the perfect thing for them to twist. 'God Bless America' + 'Nuking Japan twice is good' (+ the fact that they got away with it) is pretty much the ultimate twist of religion - their God made in the image of their image of Man. Sad


Back to Original Quote
Usually Mental Illness conjures images of total delusion and/or behaviours beyond the eccentric that isolate the individual completely - they are in their own world.
At the other end of the mental illness spectrum we have depression / neuroisis / getting stressed out. Possibly even Gandhi and other highly calm individuals may still be susceptible to this.
I am not sure if being brainwashed and pressured into a twisted belief system fits into this spectrum, unless we expand the spectrum to include almost anything that is incorrect.

Imagine being our 'lets nuke' and 'people are bad' protagonist:

• You live in the US.
• Democrats are considered left-wing (lol). To believe in anything that is really remotely left-wing could lead to social exclusion or worse. I'm not sure what they do with 'communists' in the US these days, but I imagine it might be hard to find an underground group of like-minded friends unless you are a University boffin.
• You are surrounded by pure greed and capitalism - your senses are bombarded with it.
• Agnosticism is the only logical and scientifically irrefutable view available to mankind. Anything else is a question of belief, or faith. Unless you can truly 'imagine', it would be difficult to adopt any other belief system than 'God Bless America' or atheism. There are 3 options that are socially acceptable, in general.
• To successfully practise something else you would need some of the qualities of a prophet to maintain your belief publically (unless you find a community of like-minded thinkers to live with).

So, I am not sure that not having the ability to conceive and imagine an alternative ideology to the rest of your population and the ability to maintain that belief publicly (and therefore live with others) can be considered mental illness. Its just understandably being mis-guided, surely?

* Remember the Bush-Gore election? Would it have been a different result without the Israeli influence in the election, or Elron? See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States and http://www.bollyn.com/electronic-voting/#article_10757.

[waauw]

What's that mean?

Are you talking about the entire spectrum of "right-wing" politics? If so, then somehow "the left" is about the Light Side of Humanity? (lolwut).

Or are you only referring to religious political groups? If so, then why lump all types of "right-wing" groups with them?

One thing is for sure, and various comments in this thread reflect it:

Right-Wing = Evil Empires. Evil Empires use belief in the dark side to maintain pwer and as excuses for evil (e.g. Roman Empire used Bible to create Holy Roman Catholic Empire, e.g. United Empire of America use 'God Bless America' to excuse Arab Oil Anti-Moslem Crusades and I am sure you can list a lot more ...)

Left-Wing = Believes in the Light Side. Whether 'religion' is part of the belief or not. Certainly, plenty of functionning societies through the history of mankind have managed to exist in peace and co-operation with or without religion.

So, what I am saying is, religion is not the problem, the right-wing is the problem. Their ideology of selfishness and greed will twist whatever they can for their own power-thirst, and religion is the perfect thing for them to twist. 'God Bless America' + 'Nuking Japan twice is good' (+ the fact that they got away with it) is pretty much the ultimate twist of religion - their God made in the image of their image of Man. Sad

did you take into account that communism is also left wing?

[chang50]

Got any statistical proof to proove your claims here? or have we landed in your imagination?

well the first part is christian doctrine... and the second can be shown be going to any group of atheists and asking them whether atheism is a fact or a belief.

If you actually listened to what atheists say a good number would say it is neither.I've lost count of the times I have written this,usually for theists but sometimes for fellow atheists incredibly.Atheism is a lack of belef in the existence of god(S).Full stop.Period.End of story.That's it.Nothing more.Without theism.Nothing to do with evolution or science or communism,although individual atheists may believe in any or all of these.Not certainty that gods do not or cannot exist.It makes no POSITIVE claims or assertions or offers any alternative explanations.It's not a religion or a philosophy or a worldview.Not whatever else I've forgot other than the simple absence of belief in the existence of god(S).Ok?

[Teflon Kris]

did you take into account that communism is also left wing?

Obviously.

The Rebel Alliance are the good guys.

[notyou2]

Chimpanzees know murder is wrong, and they don't have organized religion.

[Teflon Kris]

Chimpanzees know murder is wrong, and they don't have organized religion.

Indeed, therefore, according to the nukers, they are clearly a superior species.

If we accept the premise that they dont think abstactly very much (a premise we cant really prove or disprove unless we have experiential evidence of being a chimp of course), then we have the foundations of leftism - it is in their hearts to be good.

[Teflon Kris]

Now, I don't know what kinda propaganda you guys are hearing over there in the USA, but concerning the Bush-policy it was driven out of financial-economic(oil) and geopolitical motivations(hitting oil-supply of China and Russia).

Exactly, with 'God save America' as the excuse. By the same logic, Israel should be wiped off the map as 'their people killed JC', but no, that's ok, in fact, they are best mates. But someone bombs a bank and its nuke Islam time.

Earlier on, the Taliban and the Bush crew were compared - indeed, ideologically, Taliban Jihad theory is an equal perversion of religion. The most recent Islamic prophet stated that Jews and Christians are 'people of the book' and acknowleged Abraham, Jesus and crew as prior prophets. Islam overtly promotes war against polytheism (which the Romans couldnt do so explicitly in scripture). But, despite being more explicit scripture than judeo-roman books, it is still twisted by some.

On a side note, can polytheism be twisted so easily? Has monotheism risen due to its political usefulness by the right? Would Indians find it hard to twist Hindu scripture to justify nuking other nations? Not sure, an examination of religious rhetoric in the Kashmir war might tell us?

[crispybits]

Monotheism makes it easier to cast everything in black and white terms - with polytheism you could end up with two gods that disagree on something and that isn't useful when you're making out you have THE divine right to do something...

[john9blue]

wow dude. this fucking thread.

teflon, i'll go easy on you since you're a victim of UK media and don't know any better.

They will even claim their religion prevents nuclear war after they drop the bomb, twice lol (they are 99% religious apparently, and they dropped the bomb so no logic can claim the bomb-dropping was prevented when it happened).

source?

most christians believe that humans are inherently sinful

[/list]

Left-Wing

Believes in the Light Side. Whether 'religion' is part of the belief or not. Certainly, plenty of functionning societies through the history of mankind have managed to exist in peace and co-operation with or without religion.

such as?

[list][*]You live in the US.
[*]Democrats are considered left-wing (lol). To believe in anything that is really remotely left-wing could lead to social exclusion or worse. I'm not sure what they do with 'communists' in the US these days, but I imagine it might be hard to find an underground group of like-minded friends unless you are a University boffin.

any examples? have you even BEAN to the us?

[*]You are surrounded by pure greed and capitalism - your senses are bombarded with it.

unlike any other country, right?

[*]Agnosticism is the only logical and scientifically irrefutable view available to mankind. Anything else is a question of belief, or faith. Unless you can truly 'imagine', it would be difficult to adopt any other belief system than 'God Bless America' or atheism. There are 3 options that are socially acceptable, in general.
[*]To successfully practise something else you would need some of the qualities of a prophet to maintain your belief publically (unless you find a community of like-minded thinkers to live with).

america is probably the most ethnically and culturally diverse country in the world. we have more "options" for belief systems than the UK could dream of.

If you actually listened to what atheists say a good number would say it is neither.I've lost count of the times I have written this,usually for theists but sometimes for fellow atheists incredibly.Atheism is a lack of belef in the existence of god(S).Full stop.Period.End of story.That's it.Nothing more.Without theism.Nothing to do with evolution or science or communism,although individual atheists may believe in any or all of these.Not certainty that gods do not or cannot exist.It makes no POSITIVE claims or assertions or offers any alternative explanations.It's not a religion or a philosophy or a worldview.Not whatever else I've forgot other than the simple absence of belief in the existence of god(S).Ok?

it cannot be neither. any proposition must be one or the other.

Chimpanzees know murder is wrong, and they don't have organized religion.

they don't murder because their species has competition. i talked about this earlier. they don't "know murder is wrong"... that implies that their brains are capable of understanding something that ours aren't.

[chang50]

If you actually listened to what atheists say a good number would say it is neither.I've lost count of the times I have written this,usually for theists but sometimes for fellow atheists incredibly.Atheism is a lack of belef in the existence of god(S).Full stop.Period.End of story.That's it.Nothing more.Without theism.Nothing to do with evolution or science or communism,although individual atheists may believe in any or all of these.Not certainty that gods do not or cannot exist.It makes no POSITIVE claims or assertions or offers any alternative explanations.It's not a religion or a philosophy or a worldview.Not whatever else I've forgot other than the simple absence of belief in the existence of god(S).Ok?

it cannot be neither. any proposition must be one or the other.

Only if you take the absurd position that the absence of a belief is synonomous with a belief..

[john9blue]

atheism: proposition that there is no god

belief: proposition without evidence

fact: proposition with evidence

choose one

[crispybits]

Atheism - lack of belief in God.

Antitheism - proposition that there is no God

You really need to work on your definitions there J9B

[chang50]

atheism: proposition that there is no god

belief: proposition without evidence

fact: proposition with evidence

choose one

Atheism is not what you claim it to be,I have never proposed there is no god.

[john9blue]

have you made a personal judgment about whether god exists or not?

[chang50]

have you made a personal judgment about whether god exists or not?

I think it is unlikely.

[Teflon Kris]

source?

You

such as?

Everywhere, in varying degress, and wherever you live in the least degree.

any examples? have you even BEAN to the us?

You are the perfect example, and everything you say

america is probably the most ethnically and culturally diverse country in the world. we have more "options" for belief systems than the UK could dream of.

What are you comparing to anyhow, another part of your empire you have corrupted


There is a direct correlation between United-Statsian economic, political and cultural influence on the UK and:

• A widening gap between the rich and the poor
• The UK ceasing to look after its sick people
• Poverty in the UK
• Violent gangs
• Gun crime
• Divorce
• Drug addiction
• Obesity
• Tax avoidance
• Astronomical managerial pay rises

(We can add a whole list of other social ills such as the removal of public transport but lets stick to the theme of scripture and sin).

Just like many places in the US, the UK is becoming an unsafe, greed-driven society.

Believe in greed and evil and sadly you get more of it than would naturally be the case.

Scandinavians predominanty dont believe in greed and evil and have much less anglophonic social ills. Indeed, the same can be said for most of Europe, and most of the planet.

Contrast the UK with France, which has explicity gone to great lengths to resist united-stasian-isation and you will find a safer, more sharing and less greedy society in general.

Chimpanzees know murder is wrong, and they don't have organized religion.

they don't murder because their species has competition. i talked about this earlier. they don't "know murder is wrong"... that implies that their brains are capable of understanding something that ours aren't.

Who knows what they understand, unless someone who used to be a chimp can tell us.

But, as they aren't inherently sinful, they are morally superior to humans and your god, according to your humans-are-evil-in-the image-of-god doctrine.