One of many problems with Evolution

[DoomYoshi]

Are you ever going to reply to me universalschiro?

[denominator]

Are you ever going to reply to me universalschiro?

No.

[universalchiro]

Are you ever going to reply to me universalschiro?

I would be happy to, I'm still looking for a discuss that is more intelligent than; "evolution is fact and Christians are idiots, end of debate blah blah blah.", whacha got? Also, I apologize if I've missed your post. Frankly, once I read an elementary response of evolution is fact, I know there is no substance to the post, nor behind the post. The old school yard of "I'm right and your wrong" and the guy shouting that chant the loudest and longest wins, is the mindset of too many evolutionist today.

[DoomYoshi]

Are you ever going to reply to me universalschiro?

I would be happy to, I'm still looking for a discuss that is more intelligent than; "evolution is fact and Christians are idiots, end of debate blah blah blah.", whacha got? Also, I apologize if I've missed your post. Frankly, once I read an elementary response of evolution is fact, I know there is no substance to the post, nor behind the post. The old school yard of "I'm right and your wrong" and the guy shouting that chant the loudest and longest wins, is the mindset of too many evolutionist today.

Where in my post did I say that?

I agree with you that an open mind is important. However, one must be careful to not ignore the warning of St Augustine:

If anyone shall set the authority of the Bible against clear and manifest reason, he who does this knows not what he has undertaken; for he opposes to the truth not the meaning of the Bible, which is beyond his comprehension, but rather his own interpretation; not what is in the Bible, but what he has found in himself and imagines to be there.

God wrote one book - the universe - and humans wrote another one - the Bible. Answers can be found in both.

In your post you create this false alternative "evolution is fact and Christians are idiots"... one can believe in the immortality that Christ promised us and still understand that evolution happened. In fact, 37% of Americans agree with the statement "human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process".

What caused primordial ooze to turn into life? Nobody knows, probably God. So is your problem with evolution or is it with atheism? You ask for increase in information - I say God did it. Next question.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Well said. I have a lot of respect for the Christians like greekdog and player who can marry faith and science without resorting to a bastardization like creationism or intelligent design and forcing their insecurity upon the young.

There's much to be said for the decline of mythos in popular philosophy.

-TG

[Metsfanmax]

Frankly, once I read an elementary response of evolution is fact, I know there is no substance to the post, nor behind the post.

There's more substance behind the post than you can imagine, and it's really a beautiful thing. Come on over to our side, there is grandeur in this view of life.

[universalchiro]

DoomYoshi,
I disagree with evolution and atheism. The Bible clearly states God wrote the Bible through mankind. The evidence of this supernatural work: Isaiah wrote about the earth being a sphere/circle, that God stretched out the heavens and stretches out the heavens and all of creation tends towards Entropy. The only way Isaiah wrote 700BC principles of physics before mankind knew is divine.

Moses wrote God made an expanse in the heavens like a blacksmith pounds out metal in thin sheets. There was no way for Moses to know the universe is flat 3,500 yrs before modern physics.

There are 100s of fulfilled prophecies. There is no errors in the Bible to history, archeology, biology or physics.

So when the Bible, God's own testimony, says three times that God created everything in 6 days and rested, you bet I take a stand against nay sayers. Especially alleged believers that claim to believe in God but don't believe in the Word of God. Jesus is the Word (John 1), so rejecting the Word is rejecting Jesus.

Exodus 20 & 31, God said He created everything in 6 days & rested 7th. You believe whom you wish, I believe the Word.

[denominator]

DoomYoshi,
I disagree with evolution and atheism. The Bible clearly states God wrote the Bible through mankind. The evidence of this supernatural work: Isaiah wrote about the earth being a sphere/circle, that God stretched out the heavens and stretches out the heavens and all of creation tends towards Entropy. The only way Isaiah wrote 700BC principles of physics before mankind knew is divine.

Moses wrote God made an expanse in the heavens like a blacksmith pounds out metal in thin sheets. There was no way for Moses to know the universe is flat 3,500 yrs before modern physics.

There are 100s of fulfilled prophecies. There is no errors in the Bible to history, archeology, biology or physics.

So when the Bible, God's own testimony, says three times that God created everything in 6 days and rested, you bet I take a stand against nay sayers. Especially alleged believers that claim to believe in God but don't believe in the Word of God. Jesus is the Word (John 1), so rejecting the Word is rejecting Jesus.

Exodus 20 & 31, God said He created everything in 6 days & rested 7th. You believe whom you wish, I believe the Word.

There's your problem with evolution. It's not that there is a problem with evolution, it is that evolution doesn't agree with what you've been told is fact by a single book. If reality doesn't agree with the Bible, reality is wrong.

Tell me though, why do you take the Bible as the literal truth? Why not the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, or any of the other religious texts as literal truth? Why this book over all the others?

There is no errors in the Bible to history, archeology, biology or physics.

... that's just plain false.

[universalchiro]

Evolution believes that life came from a primordial soup of complex chemicals, and that the first replicating life forms used up all the organic molecules. And then miraculously evolved the ability to find and utilize another food source. There are multiple leaps of faith in the evolutionary doctrine.

A. Organic molecules occur in trace amounts naturally, so to presume that there was an abundance at one time for life to spontaneously spawn, is faith based.
B. To cover up the loophole by espousing that the reason organic molecules occur in trace amounts is the early life forms used it all up. Faith based.
C. After using up all the organic molecules, life evolved the ability to find, consume a new source of fuel. Faith based.

[Metsfanmax]

Evolution believes that life came from a primordial soup of complex chemicals

No it does not. Evolution is not a statement about abiogenesis. Also, evolution does not "believe" in anything.

[universalchiro]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

[macbone]

Here's one site that talks about mutations increasing information: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

By any reasonable definition, increases in information have been observed to evolve. We have observed the evolution of

• increased genetic variety in a population (Lenski 1995; Lenski et al. 1991)
• increased genetic material (Alves et al. 2001; Brown et al. 1998; Hughes and Friedman 2003; Lynch and Conery 2000; Ohta 2003)
• novel genetic material (Knox et al. 1996; Park et al. 1996)
• novel genetically-regulated abilities (Prijambada et al. 1995)

A mechanism that is likely to be particularly common for adding information is gene duplication, in which a long stretch of DNA is copied, followed by point mutations that change one or both of the copies. Genetic sequencing has revealed several instances in which this is likely the origin of some proteins. For example:

• Two enzymes in the histidine biosynthesis pathway that are barrel-shaped, structural and sequence evidence suggests, were formed via gene duplication and fusion of two half-barrel ancestors (Lang et al. 2000).
• RNASE1, a gene for a pancreatic enzyme, was duplicated, and in langur monkeys one of the copies mutated into RNASE1B, which works better in the more acidic small intestine of the langur. (Zhang et al. 2002)
• Yeast was put in a medium with very little sugar. After 450 generations, hexose transport genes had duplicated several times, and some of the duplicated versions had mutated further. (Brown et al. 1998)

The biological literature is full of additional examples. A PubMed search (at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi) on "gene duplication" gives more than 3000 references.

This is from New Scientist:

Most people lose the ability to digest milk by their teens. A few thousand years ago, however, after the domestication of cattle, several groups of people in Europe and Africa independently acquired mutations that allow them to continue digesting milk into adulthood. Genetic studies show there has been very strong selection for these mutations, so they were clearly very beneficial.

Most biologists would see this as a gain in information: a change in environment (the availability of cow's milk as food) is reflected by a genetic mutation that lets people exploit that change (gaining the ability to digest milk as an adult). Creationists, however, dismiss this as a malfunction, as the loss of the ability to switch off the production of the milk-digesting enzyme after childhood.

Rather than get bogged down trying to define what information is, let's just look at a few other discoveries made by biologists in recent years. For instance, it has been shown a simple change in gene activity in sea squirts can turn their one-chambered heart into a working two-chambered one. Surely this counts as increasing information?

Some monkeys have a mutation in a protein called TRIM5 that results in a piece of another, defunct protein being tacked onto TRIM5. The result is a hybrid protein called TRIM5-CypA, which can protect cells from infection with retroviruses such as HIV. Here, a single mutation has resulted in a new protein with a new and potentially vital function. New protein, new function, new information.

Although such an event might seem highly unlikely, it turns out that the TRIM5-CypA protein has evolved independently in two separate groups of monkeys. In general, though, the evolution of a new gene usually involves far more than one mutation. The most common way for a new gene to evolve is for an existing gene to be duplicated. Once there are two or more copies, each can evolve in separate directions.

[AndyDufresne]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Mets, you might as well throw away your science degree or any such plans you may have. Your schooling is obviously pretty bupkis.


--Andy

[Metsfanmax]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Mets, you might as well throw away your science degree or any such plans you may have. Your schooling is obviously pretty bupkis.


--Andy

DAMMIT. I've spent two years on this dissertation already. And all for naught.

[AndyDufresne]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Mets, you might as well throw away your science degree or any such plans you may have. Your schooling is obviously pretty bupkis.


--Andy

DAMMIT. I've spent two years on this dissertation already. And all for naught.

Mets, I'll help you convert your dissertation into a spoken word poem. For voice recording, just use some strings and a couple of cans -- I think this science technology will suffice.


--Andy

[Lord Arioch]

Dont forget the rock its pretty good .)

[Metsfanmax]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Mets, you might as well throw away your science degree or any such plans you may have. Your schooling is obviously pretty bupkis.


--Andy

DAMMIT. I've spent two years on this dissertation already. And all for naught.

Mets, I'll help you convert your dissertation into a spoken word poem. For voice recording, just use some strings and a couple of cans -- I think this science technology will suffice.


--Andy

It had better be good. I want my poem to be remembered for generations upon generations and eventually evolve into an origin myth.

[AndyDufresne]

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Mets, you might as well throw away your science degree or any such plans you may have. Your schooling is obviously pretty bupkis.


--Andy

DAMMIT. I've spent two years on this dissertation already. And all for naught.

Mets, I'll help you convert your dissertation into a spoken word poem. For voice recording, just use some strings and a couple of cans -- I think this science technology will suffice.


--Andy

It had better be good. I want my poem to be remembered for generations upon generations and eventually evolve into an origin myth.

Metsfanmax's twelve apostles: AOG, betiko, notyou2, Serbia, Dukasaur, DoomYoshi, TGD, BBS, saxitoxin, Gillipig, nietzsche, TA1LGUNN3R. I am not sure who is Judas in this scenario.


--Andy

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Me. I'm nobodies toady.

-TG

[GoranZ]

Evolution believes that life came from a primordial soup of complex chemicals

You make essential mistake by your assumption... YOU BELIEVE, WE DON'T BELIEVE, WE KNOW... there is huge difference

metsfan, you've been put on permanent ignore list. There are too many things to teach you to get you up to speed of science. Stay your course, ignore God, ignore the Bible, ignore me and God and I will ignore you.

Adding you on ignore list is wrong, your place is not there, its on the list of extinct organisms , evolution will probably make sure that will happen

[betiko]

Well said. I have a lot of respect for the Christians like greekdog and player who can marry faith and science without resorting to a bastardization like creationism or intelligent design and forcing their insecurity upon the young.

There's much to be said for the decline of mythos in popular philosophy.

-TG

Only some protestants believe in such heresy, most of them don't and catholics do believe in evolution. So it s not correct to assimilate christians with creationism. Only some hard core fanatic comunity still believe in such thing, and I guess all their ancestors moved to the US.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Well said. I have a lot of respect for the Christians like greekdog and player who can marry faith and science without resorting to a bastardization like creationism or intelligent design and forcing their insecurity upon the young.

There's much to be said for the decline of mythos in popular philosophy.

-TG

Only some protestants believe in such heresy, most of them don't and catholics do believe in evolution. So it s not correct to assimilate christians with creationism. Only some hard core fanatic comunity still believe in such thing, and I guess all their ancestors moved to the US.

Sorry. In my state the large majority of Christians are Protestants of the creationist variety. Lots of Seventh Day Adventists where I come from.

If you were to ask the people where I grew up about evolution, I'd say probably 60% would scream at you about how "we didn't come from no monkeys."

-TG

[jay_a2j]

Faith uncompromising.... it's a beautiful thing

[notyou2]

Are you ever going to reply to me universalschiro?

I would be happy to, I'm still looking for a discuss that is more intelligent than; "evolution is fact and Christians are idiots, end of debate blah blah blah.", whacha got? Also, I apologize if I've missed your post. Frankly, once I read an elementary response of evolution is fact, I know there is no substance to the post, nor behind the post. The old school yard of "I'm right and your wrong" and the guy shouting that chant the loudest and longest wins, is the mindset of too many evolutionist today.

Not all Christians are idiots. In fact the vast majority aren't. However, there is a vocal minority that in my opinion are beyond idiots. They are more like Ostriches with their heads in the sand. Furthermore, they profess to know more than science itself and insist on starting shit flinging festivals to force their views on others. They deny truth and ignore reality, thus they are living lies and speaking lies. I have no sympathy for them. This whole concept actually is found in other religions as well. They are the zealots of their religions and directly responsible for a great deal of the worlds problems. You sir are one of them.

[jay_a2j]

You sir are one of them.

Me too! Me too! Don't forget ME in your list of zealots! This indeed, is a high honor! (even if your description is way off)