Elie Wiesel (1928-2016)

[DoomYoshi]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

[Symmetry]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

Dude, your outright Holocaust denial disgusts more people than implied drug addiction.

Do you really think that you have a way out of this? NY2 can't bury your nonsense permanently.

[mrswdk]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

I don't really understand why you strawmanned me saying pursuing my own enjoyment makes sense to mean I must therefore be okay with taking so much heroin I OD.

If you have something to say then say it clearly without wrapping it up in gibberish.

[notyou2]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

Dude, your outright Holocaust denial disgusts more people than implied drug addiction.

Do you really think that you have a way out of this? NY2 can't bury your nonsense permanently.

He never denied the holocaust. He said there were 12 million Jews pre-holocaust and there are 12 million today. He was making an argument. Perhaps a poor and insensitive one, but an argument none the less.

[DoomYoshi]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

I don't really understand why you strawmanned me saying pursuing my own enjoyment makes sense to mean I must therefore be okay with taking so much heroin I OD.

If you have something to say then say it clearly without wrapping it up in gibberish.

A demonstrable "enjoyment" is dopamine release. People can get a supernormal stimulus amount of dopamine by ingesting heroin. Therefore, if seeking enjoyment is a goal, then suicide by heroin overdose is the logical conclusion to that goal. Since that answer to: "what is the good life" is "not a life at all", it doesn't really answer the question.

So, let me rephrase it: "what is the good life in the absence of morality, and in a totally materialist sense"?

[DoomYoshi]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

Dude, your outright Holocaust denial disgusts more people than implied drug addiction.

Do you really think that you have a way out of this? NY2 can't bury your nonsense permanently.

Ever get the feeling you were being trolled?

[Symmetry]

Enjoyment comes in the form of larger and larger doses of heroin until you overdose. I agree that makes logical sense. Thanks for clarifying

If a heroin OD is what you desire than that's your choice.

So you are willing to tear down morality systems with nested "why" statements but not willing to ask or answer "why" something provides enjoyment.

I guess hypocrisy is your heroin.

Dude, your outright Holocaust denial disgusts more people than implied drug addiction.

Do you really think that you have a way out of this? NY2 can't bury your nonsense permanently.

He never denied the holocaust.

He literally did.

In the strictest sense of reality, the Holocaust never happened.

Get a clue, dude.

[muy_thaiguy]

Telling someone to "get a clue"is calling them clueless, no mater which way you slice it or dice it.

You still haven't answered my question.

Not really the same thing though is it? You've been posting about how you don't know who Elie Wiesel is, or what he wrote about.

Stop talking past each other. The question "Who's Dead" obviously refers to the dead people in the quote in the OP. Now, unless you quoted Elie Wiesel talking about remembering his dead self like some Timothy Leary experiment, you obviously haven't answered the question.

In other words, when people see "the dead", some of us aren't totally brainwashed by the New York Jewry to automatically assume some minor historical skirmish with a few incidental civilian casualties.

In the strictest sense of reality, the Holocaust never happened. There were 12 million Jews on the planet before, there are still 12 million Jews on the planet. Numbers don't lie and so I don't see what the big deal is either I guess.

There are essentially two levels of Holocaust deniers; the ones that outright deny anything like that ever happened, and the ones that say the numbers were grossly over-inflated.

Either way, what the f*ck, dude?

[Dukasaur]

A demonstrable "enjoyment" is dopamine release. People can get a supernormal stimulus amount of dopamine by ingesting heroin. Therefore, if seeking enjoyment is a goal, then suicide by heroin overdose is the logical conclusion to that goal.

No it's not. Overdosing will cut short your pleasure. The total amount of pleasure you have in your life is the product of (amount of pleasure you have per time) X (total time.)

Having supernormal amounts of pleasure after which you drop dead results in very little total pleasure. Having a long life of toil and drudgery and little pleasure also results in a low total. The key to maximizing the area under the curve lies in finding the right balance where decent amounts of pleasure are moderated with high longevity.

[DoomYoshi]

That physiologically doesn't make sense. Imagine a situation where you can sit in a chair for life and adjust the pleasure knob. Receptors gradually become immune to stimulus and the level will need to keep increasing. So you can either die, add more stimulus, or accept a lower level of pleasure than would be optimal.

[Dukasaur]

That physiologically doesn't make sense. Imagine a situation where you can sit in a chair for life and adjust the pleasure knob. Receptors gradually become immune to stimulus and the level will need to keep increasing. So you can either die, add more stimulus, or accept a lower level of pleasure than would be optimal.

Yeah, you get bored with anything, and you have to go find something else.

After watching The Life of Brian three hundred and sixty times, it loses its charm, and you need to go outside and play some tennis.

These are technical details of how to find pleasure. They don't change the overall function.

[DoomYoshi]

I still think you're going to have to defend your assertion of "greatest amount over time" versus "greatest amount possible all at once". Why is one to be preferred to the other? If you live at 50% pleasure, you can start at 50% stimulus. To maintain 50% pleasure, you will gradually need to increase (amount and variety of) stimulus. By the time you get to 100% stimulus, you will still only be at 50% pleasure.

Does eking out a living half-dead really define the "good life"?

[Dukasaur]

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received is the rate at which you receive it over the time during which you recieve it. If by moderating the extraction rate you can extend the time the resource is available to you, you will maximize the total amount extracted.

This is true regardless of what the resource being extracted is. If we can postpone the extinction of tuna fish by fishing them at a less insane rate, we will maximize the amount of tuna we catch over time. If we go nuts and catch them all at once, we may have one great season but there will be no more, and the total amount caught will in the end be trivial compared to what we might have caught if we fished them at a sustainable rate for (potentially) tens of thousands of years.

Extracting pleasure from life is much the same. If you extract it at a more sustainable rate and live longer, the total amount you get over the course of your life will be greater than if you overdo it and reduce your longevity.

[DoomYoshi]

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received

Stop. Answer the question: why is the total amount better than highest amount at once? This isn't a resource that can be stockpiled, this is a fleeting experience.

All you did was redefine how to maximize total amount.

[mrswdk]

DY, dopamine is just one of the chemicals in your body which makes you happy. There are also endorphins, serotonin, probably others as well. 'Achieving pleasure' =/= 'releasing as much dopamine in your brain as possible'.

'sides, if I take enough heroin to kill myself consciously aware that I'm taking enough to kill myself, that brings the thought of how people around me would be made to feel if I OD and kill myself. If I choose to OD I am making a choice fully aware that my actions would cause that upset, and the realization (or not) of that result is a choice that is 100% down to me to make. Most people I don't care about even slightly, but some people I do. Why would I kill myself, knowing that is the effect my actions would have on them? Not very desirable, not very pleasurable.

Clearly you have considered this question before and decided not to kill yourself with a heroin overdose, so pray tell: what motivates you to continue living?

And why is any of this relevant to whether or not Eli Weasel is a hypocrite?

[ConfederateSS]

------Duk.....I said,if someone wants to play...I'll play. They get what they get....
------Bernie.....if rambling...Facts are facts....
------When talking about dead....all dead...
------Not just what the Jews do to the Arabs today...As notyou2 has pointed out....That person (op)...said he stopped after The Jewish Hitler,because he just got a true history fact shoved in his mouth. Something he couldn't swallow. ...factThe Jewish Hitler...JOSHUA...KILLED more people percentage wise(people living then as to the 1940's) than the germans in the 1940's. As Joshua carried out the jewish manifest destiny against the canaanites. Our God wants us to have this land.Screw the people already here. ....READ THE BOOK....BIBLE(O.T.) BOOK OF THE JEWISH HITLER. ...I know the truth sucks.....GOD SHOULD HAVE TAUGHT HIS PEOPLE THE GOLDEN RULE... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...Ask yourself this question on dying(From a science point of view.Not a bleeding heart point of view,)...Would you rather be eaten alive by a Lion/animal?...Or gassed and ashed?....I'd take the last one....Before you answer ,remember in 6 billion years. We all will be ashed ,if we are still around(or not...humanity's remains). As THE EARTH gets vaporized by THE SUN(as it expands outward)...

[DoomYoshi]

DY, dopamine is just one of the chemicals in your body which makes you happy. There are also endorphins, serotonin, probably others as well. 'Achieving pleasure' =/= 'releasing as much dopamine in your brain as possible'.

'sides, if I take enough heroin to kill myself consciously aware that I'm taking enough to kill myself, that brings the thought of how people around me would be made to feel if I OD and kill myself. If I choose to OD I am making a choice fully aware that my actions would cause that upset, and the realization (or not) of that result is a choice that is 100% down to me to make. Most people I don't care about even slightly, but some people I do. Why would I kill myself, knowing that is the effect my actions would have on them? Not very desirable, not very pleasurable.

Clearly you have considered this question before and decided not to kill yourself with a heroin overdose, so pray tell: what motivates you to continue living?

And why is any of this relevant to whether or not Eli Weasel is a hypocrite?

Paragraph one: Even if you count all the other chemicals, the overall argument is the same

Paragraph two: is a moral argument. Empathy is a precondition for morality. You are taking the next step into actual morality by precognitive empathy. Precognitive empathy IS one definition of morality. Ethicists and their trolley problem and all that use that exact type of intuition to settle moral debates. So you can't say: there is no morality, I only choose to do good because of how I feel it affects others. One could just as easily say: choosing to do good because of how it affects others is morality.

Paragraph three: I don't believe in enjoyment as a goal, nor do I believe in a purely materialistic and moral free world

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received is the rate at which you receive it over the time during which you recieve it. If by moderating the extraction rate you can extend the time the resource is available to you, you will maximize the total amount extracted.

This is true regardless of what the resource being extracted is. If we can postpone the extinction of tuna fish by fishing them at a less insane rate, we will maximize the amount of tuna we catch over time. If we go nuts and catch them all at once, we may have one great season but there will be no more, and the total amount caught will in the end be trivial compared to what we might have caught if we fished them at a sustainable rate for (potentially) tens of thousands of years.

Extracting pleasure from life is much the same. If you extract it at a more sustainable rate and live longer, the total amount you get over the course of your life will be greater than if you overdo it and reduce your longevity.

It's like this:
DY: shopping at IKEA is great. I spent 20k and bought a lifetime supply of furniture. Now I will never go to IKEA again
DK: Actually it would be better if you spent only 10 dollars a day at IKEA and then over time you will have spent more at IKEA.
DY: How is it better buying a few meatballs every day when all I want is a futon?
DK: moar IKEA!!!

[mrswdk]

Paragraph two: a number of people I am attached to and care about. Not all people.

Paragraph three: doesn't really explain why you feel compelled to stay alive.

[Dukasaur]

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received

Stop. Answer the question: why is the total amount better than highest amount at once? This isn't a resource that can be stockpiled, this is a fleeting experience.

All you did was redefine how to maximize total amount.

And the sum total of many fleeting experiences is better than one.

Jesus, this should not be a debate.

It's basic math.

Where n>1, n*x>1*x.

[DoomYoshi]

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received

Stop. Answer the question: why is the total amount better than highest amount at once? This isn't a resource that can be stockpiled, this is a fleeting experience.

All you did was redefine how to maximize total amount.

And the sum total of many fleeting experiences is better than one.

Prove it.

How is a ton of inferior experiences better than the ultimate experience?

Is the secret to happiness really just reading Marmaduke? If so, why aren't more people completely satisfied and sure of themselves?

[mrswdk]

If you're going to keep picking holes in people's propositions, you're going to have to put forward one of your own.

Or have you now just gone full emo and decided to wallow in your own misery?

[notyou2]

Sym, you reduced his quote. I have reprinted it in full below.

In the strictest sense of reality, the Holocaust never happened. There were 12 million Jews on the planet before, there are still 12 million Jews on the planet. Numbers don't lie and so I don't see what the big deal is either I guess.

DY is not saying it didn't happen. He is saying there were 12 million Jews pre-WWII and he is saying there are 12 million Jews today. Therefore, it didn't happen. He is joking/trolling/making a stupid argument, or whatever you want to call it. He was using it to point out your stupid argument about remembering the dead. Elie Wiesel apparently doesn't want the holocaust victims forgotten, and rightfully so. But what about the Armenians? The Rawandans? The North American Indians? The Palestinians?

If you can't grasp what he is saying, it is you that should get a clue.

[Dukasaur]

It seems self evident to me. The total amount of something received

Stop. Answer the question: why is the total amount better than highest amount at once? This isn't a resource that can be stockpiled, this is a fleeting experience.

All you did was redefine how to maximize total amount.

And the sum total of many fleeting experiences is better than one.

Prove it.

How is a ton of inferior experiences better than the ultimate experience?

There's no such thing as an "ultimate experience". Some experiences are more intense than others, but the intensity of anything goes down over time. Getting to fly in an airplane must have seemed like the ultimate experience when planes were few and far between. For those of us who grew up in the jet age, it's exciting but not amazingly so. For a professional pilot, it's just another day at the office.

Furthermore, with time the effect can be reversed. Today I saw a garter snake for the first time in many years. It was exciting. Not getting-to-fly-an-Apollo-Mission exciting, but still exciting in its own way. When I was young, they were everywhere. I used to see dozens of garter snakes by the road just walking home from school. But with time and with moving to the city, it's been many years since I've seen one, so finding one again after all this time was almost like a new experience. I suppose you'll call that an inferior experience. But if I had died yesterday, I wouldn't have seen that snake today, and I would have finished life one interesting experience poorer.

Is the secret to happiness really just reading Marmaduke? If so, why aren't more people completely satisfied and sure of themselves?

Dissatisfaction is genetically programmed. You know this, as a biologist. Don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or just using the Socratic method to get to some goal here.

It's nice just laying on a flat rock and absorbing sunlight, but soon it will be dark and you will need real food. So, pleasant as it is, you are programmed to get bored with laying on a rock, and you get up and go look for some food before it's too late.

No matter what you have you want something else. The grass is always greener on the other side, etc., etc. Evolution has taught your genes that no matter how lovely it is today, you'd best get moving again and start looking for something else before too long. Often you don't know what it is you're looking for, and that's just natural.

[Symmetry]

Sym, you reduced his quote. I have reprinted it in full below.

In the strictest sense of reality, the Holocaust never happened. There were 12 million Jews on the planet before, there are still 12 million Jews on the planet. Numbers don't lie and so I don't see what the big deal is either I guess.

DY is not saying it didn't happen. He is saying there were 12 million Jews pre-WWII and he is saying there are 12 million Jews today. Therefore, it didn't happen

I think I have a pretty solid hold on this. Are you really getting on board with this dude?

[ConfederateSS]

-----Like I said DUK...the person shut up ,when facts are shoved in his face...Yet, he is the one who wanted to play.....Shut his ass down ....Just like TeeGee...shut his ass down...spreading crap...in "Is C.C. Declining"... May it soon be unlocked,for those of us who really care about Conquer Club...(People like OWEN) (See what I did there,person...o p...)... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...