Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[MeDeFe]

I think the odds are 1 to 90 million for 7 out of 49 correct numbers. (That's what you need here for the jackpot)

I had a look and estimates for the last 50000 years (since people started settling down and farm the land) range between 92 and 106 billion people. If 144000 people are going to be saved the chance is about 1 in 700000. Significantly better than winning the lottery, but given the high stakes I'm not sure if I'd not rather stick to gambling, at least there you can only lose money.

[OnlyAmbrose]

I have to go in a few minutes, so I'll respond to your whole post later Mr. Cream, but I can address this in a few words:

I hear you on the whole 'world will never be perfect as long as there is sin in it' thing. My point is why was sin even allowed in the first place.

The ONLY sin is not loving God. All the other sins can be tied to this basic premise.

That being said, LOVE cannot exist without WILL. You cannot be forced into love.

Now, if the only sin is NOT loving, but in order to love you must have the choice to love or not love, then clearly in order to love we MUST have the choice to sin.

Hope that helps.

[CrazyAnglican]

I think the odds are 1 to 90 million for 7 out of 49 correct numbers. (That's what you need here for the jackpot)

I had a look and estimates for the last 50000 years (since people started settling down and farm the land) range between 92 and 106 billion people. If 144000 people are going to be saved the chance is about 1 in 700000. Significantly better than winning the lottery, but given the high stakes I'm not sure if I'd not rather stick to gambling, at least there you can only lose money.

Dude,

I am so glad you're on this site

[Backglass]

[CoffeeCream]

The ONLY sin is not loving God. All the other sins can be tied to this basic premise.

That being said, LOVE cannot exist without WILL. You cannot be forced into love.

Now, if the only sin is NOT loving, but in order to love you must have the choice to love or not love, then clearly in order to love we MUST have the choice to sin.

Hope that helps.

Even I know that there is more than one sin. Perhaps that's not what you meant, but while I hold love in high regard there is obviously more to doing bad than just hate. Maybe you're saying that all sin (or committing bad deeds) is based on the lack of love. Am I close?

[OnlyAmbrose]

The ONLY sin is not loving God. All the other sins can be tied to this basic premise.

That being said, LOVE cannot exist without WILL. You cannot be forced into love.

Now, if the only sin is NOT loving, but in order to love you must have the choice to love or not love, then clearly in order to love we MUST have the choice to sin.

Hope that helps.

Even I know that there is more than one sin. Perhaps that's not what you meant, but while I hold love in high regard there is obviously more to doing bad than just hate. Maybe you're saying that all sin (or committing bad deeds) is based on the lack of love. Am I close?

Very close.

Here's what i mean when I say that the only sin is a lack of love of God.

"If you love me, keep my commandments."

That simple. It all boils down to love. If you love the God who created you and died for you, you will certainly obey him.

(still no time for a full reply, will try tomorrow but not much of a chance - homecoming and all that)

[MR. Nate]

What is the difference between believing in God and believing in the Easter Bunny ?.......Very few if any people have died arguing about the Easter Bunny or the various interpretations of him.
The above sentence is trite and may be offensive to some but its a fact that arguements about religion have caused endless strife,believe whatever you like but just keep it to yourself .

If you truly believed that, shouldn't you have kept it to yourself?

A trite response to an awkward point - predictable !
I was neither supporting the Easter bunny nor any other Icon so your jibe was irelevent, care to try again ?

1. You admitted your original post was trite, therefore, a trite response seemed to be in order
2. It was only aimed at the final phrase. i.e. If you truly believed people should keep their opinions to themselves, you would not say that, you would practice your belief. So . . . do you not believe it, or are you being hypocritical?
As for your actual point, I have pointed out before that I am convinced that belief in God is innate . . . everyone believes in God until they suppress it. I see no reason to argue with your analogy because you are either in denial or self deceived.

No, you didn't know, you extrapolated from previous observations and formed the opinion that Backglass posting in this thread was likely. But you didn't know he would do it.
If god exists however and is omniscient, i.e. knows of everything that has, does and will happen in the past, present and future there cannot be any free will.
Knowledge, as I know the definition from theoretical philosophy 101, is "true, well-founded opinion" (this is a direct translation from German, so opinion is only close enough, but not 100% right). If we leave the well-founded at "it's god we're talking about", then gods opinion of what is going to happen must be true if it is to be considered knowledge. And if it is true, then there is no choice for us, if god knows I'm going to keep the wallet I found instead of calling the rightful owner and telling him I found his wallet before I do it I never had a choice in the matter, at most I had the illusion of a choice. If I had a choice god couldn't know what I would do, at most he could do what you did, extrapolate from previous observations and form an opinion of what is the likeliest course of events.

I don't see how you didn't have a choice. God KNOWING what you will do is not MAKING you do it. Knowledge is different from action, even if the knowledge is absolute. My illustration is one of degrees, in that I know less about backglass than God knows about us. He can predict with absolute certainty what we will do because he is aware of every conceivable variable, and has the capacity to understand all the implications of every variable. But He does not force you to do anything, He simply knows.

[CrazyAnglican]

1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

Yes, God is omnisicient. He created everyone with the possibility that they might one day rebel. You are assuming that there is only one possible future because we will only live one. If God allows free will, then there are countless possible futures, and if God is omniscient, he knows them all. He gives us guidance on where we should go, but the consequences for our choices are our own. He created the Archangel Lucifer. Lucifer created Satan.

As for the tree of knowledge, you seem to be assuming that the tree was put there as a stumbling block. The reason for the tree's existence isn't given in the story. It's reasonable to assume that God had a good reason for putting that tree in that garden. It's also possible to assume he set it there as a trap for the hapless Adam and Eve, but either way it is going beyond the text and spirit of the story. As a father, I tell my kids to stay away from eletrical outlets because they are dangerous. I don't use it as bait to trick them into hurting themselves. My experience with God is that he is a good father.

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

He wants us to choose to be with him. The only way that's possible is to allow us to choose without interference. Simply, I believe He will show up one day, but then there is no choice. Everyone will acknowledge him.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

I don't. I'm a public school teacher, and if a student asks my religion, I won't answer. If they persist, I'll tell them to ask me outside the building after school if they can catch me. Only one has in twelve years.

I oppose anything that takes our ability to choose for ourselves in this particular area. Likewise I oppose any legislation/litigation that inhibits any religion from proselytizing (Kids are a captive audience so I do support not teaching religion in public schools).

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is).

Yes, but this repentance has to be heartfelt and true. Not as easy as it might sound if you're waiting til the last minute.

On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!!

Yes and No. I do not believe that anyone, no matter how moral, can earn a salvation on their own. I have no knowledge of how people would be saved outside of Christianity, but that doesn't mean that salvation is impossible for them. It's just outside of my experience or knowledge.

Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

He doesn't. Hell is being separated from God. Heaven is being in his presence. Both are natural consequences of his existence, just like being in your presence and being apart from you are natural consequences of your existence. Nobody is simultaneously in you presence and separated from you. Certainly one could contact you while not being with you, but to Christians that is prayer. Hell is merely choosing to be eternally separate from God.

[CoffeeCream]

Yes, God is omnisicient. He created everyone with the possibility that they might one day rebel. You are assuming that there is only one possible future because we will only live one. If God allows free will, then there are countless possible futures, and if God is omniscient, he knows them all. He gives us guidance on where we should go, but the consequences for our choices are our own. He created the Archangel Lucifer. Lucifer created Satan.

As for the tree of knowledge, you seem to be assuming that the tree was put there as a stumbling block. The reason for the tree's existence isn't given in the story. It's reasonable to assume that God had a good reason for putting that tree in that garden. It's also possible to assume he set it there as a trap for the hapless Adam and Eve, but either way it is going beyond the text and spirit of the story. As a father, I tell my kids to stay away from eletrical outlets because they are dangerous. I don't use it as bait to trick them into hurting themselves. My experience with God is that he is a good father.

I guess I'll have to actually read the passage. I've read bits and parts of the bible. I also listen a little bit to preachers on the tv. I have no excuse since I work in a book store. To be honest with you it seems a little intimidating because it's so big and I don't know how far I'd get.

He wants us to choose to be with him. The only way that's possible is to allow us to choose without interference. Simply, I believe He will show up one day, but then there is no choice. Everyone will acknowledge him.

A very sobering thought. Ok, so he'll show up. Why did he have to leave in the first place?

I don't. I'm a public school teacher, and if a student asks my religion, I won't answer. If they persist, I'll tell them to ask me outside the building after school if they can catch me. Only one has in twelve years.

I oppose anything that takes our ability to choose for ourselves in this particular area. Likewise I oppose any legislation/litigation that inhibits any religion from proselytizing (Kids are a captive audience so I do support not teaching religion in public schools).

Glad to hear it. For me I have no fear of discussing religion with people even when I think their ideas are wrong. I'll even talk to the Jehovah's Witnesses and talk with them when they come to my door. They usually leave pretty frustrated though so I don't think they're that sincere unless you immediately believe what they want.

As for the whole 'let's not ever discuss religion in public' sentiment I think that's just silly. How can anyone choose what they want to believe unless they engage a variety of people and weigh all opinions. You have to be exposed to ideas before you can say yes or no to them. My opinion, it should be an elective course. I think that people that can't handle discussing religion are weak, but at least it would be their choice if they took the course.

Yes, but this repentance has to be heartfelt and true. Not as easy as it might sound if you're waiting til the last minute.

Agreed. If God really is personal (a concept I haven't accepted as of yet) then I would owe him the respect of being authentic and genuine. After all, it's what I would expect from him. I get the feeling sometimes that many people are only religious during holidays. Do you practice what you preach every day? I guess this is what I'm actually looking for - a God who is just straightforward, direct, and genuine.

Yes and No. I do not believe that anyone, no matter how moral, can earn a salvation on their own. I have no knowledge of how people would be saved outside of Christianity, but that doesn't mean that salvation is impossible for them. It's just outside of my experience or knowledge.

Yeah, but there are many religious rules. What is their purpose if nobody can achieve them on their own? Of course I would want to obey them but let's be honest. Every single person on the earth is a hypocrite in one way, shape, or form.

He doesn't. Hell is being separated from God. Heaven is being in his presence. Both are natural consequences of his existence, just like being in your presence and being apart from you are natural consequences of your existence. Nobody is simultaneously in you presence and separated from you. Certainly one could contact you while not being with you, but to Christians that is prayer. Hell is merely choosing to be eternally separate from God.

I always thought of hell as being a place of punishment for being bad and heaven as a place of reward for being good (in God's eyes...on the assumption that he's observing us). That's an interesting take on the whole thing. Much to ponder...much to ponder.

Nice posts, Anglican. You don't sound so crazy!

[joecoolfrog]

Mr Nate
I like that innate hook,seems that it covers all possibilities so im going to use it to promote The Mighty Frog as a new and improved diety. Thinking of launching soon with a nice range of merchandise but could do with a PR/Marketing man....What you doing next Thursday

[Minister Masket]

I would like to take this time to introduce my concept of "Christiovolution" - the combination of Christianity and Evolution.
Just like Judaism combined with Jesus to become Christianity, and Cathlicism combined with Martin-Luthur to become Protestantism.
Who's to say God did not set the Big Bang in motion? And evolution?
I believe in God, not the Bible. Too many people look to the Bible instead of God nowadays. Unfortuantly, the book has been changed and corrupted beyond regognition in history. For example: King James changed it so that most parts said good things about him! Lousy git.
Remember: Christiovolution!

WARNING: the spellings of certain religions in this post are of my own creation. Purely for my own amusment.

[Iliad]

I would like to take this time to introduce my concept of "Christiovolution" - the combination of Christianity and Evolution.
Just like Judaism combined with Jesus to become Christianity, and Cathlicism combined with Martin-Luthur to become Protestantism.
Who's to say God did not set the Big Bang in motion? And evolution?
I believe in God, not the Bible. Too many people look to the Bible instead of God nowadays. Unfortuantly, the book has been changed and corrupted beyond regognition in history. For example: King James changed it so that most parts said good things about him! Lousy git.
Remember: Christiovolution!

WARNING: the spellings of certain religions in this post are of my own creation. Purely for my own amusment.

Ehh. Feckanity is better!

[firth4eva]

Feckan sucks

[Iliad]

Feckan sucks my balls

[firth4eva]

Feckan sucks my balls

[Iliad]

Feckan rules

[firth4eva]

firth rules

[Iliad]

editing quotes is fun rules

[firth4eva]

so is having loads of them

[Iliad]

don't make me f*ck up this page

And now back on topic

[firth4eva]

Jesus rules

[MeDeFe]

No, you didn't know, you extrapolated from previous observations and formed the opinion that Backglass posting in this thread was likely. But you didn't know he would do it.
If god exists however and is omniscient, i.e. knows of everything that has, does and will happen in the past, present and future there cannot be any free will.
Knowledge, as I know the definition from theoretical philosophy 101, is "true, well-founded opinion" (this is a direct translation from German, so opinion is only close enough, but not 100% right). If we leave the well-founded at "it's god we're talking about", then gods opinion of what is going to happen must be true if it is to be considered knowledge. And if it is true, then there is no choice for us, if god knows I'm going to keep the wallet I found instead of calling the rightful owner and telling him I found his wallet before I do it I never had a choice in the matter, at most I had the illusion of a choice. If I had a choice god couldn't know what I would do, at most he could do what you did, extrapolate from previous observations and form an opinion of what is the likeliest course of events.

I don't see how you didn't have a choice. God KNOWING what you will do is not MAKING you do it. Knowledge is different from action, even if the knowledge is absolute. My illustration is one of degrees, in that I know less about backglass than God knows about us. He can predict with absolute certainty what we will do because he is aware of every conceivable variable, and has the capacity to understand all the implications of every variable. But He does not force you to do anything, He simply knows.

The problem is that knowledge, in order to be knowledge and not just opinion or belief, has to be true, so if god knows what a person is going to do before this person goes and does it there is no choice. If this persons actions are already known, he cannot act differently, if he can act differently god cannot know how he is going to act.
So god doesn't have to make a person act a certain way, simply knowing how a person is going to act is enough to make free will impossible.

[CrazyAnglican]

The problem is that knowledge, in order to be knowledge and not just opinion or belief, has to be true, so if god knows what a person is going to do before this person goes and does it there is no choice. If this persons actions are already known, he cannot act differently, if he can act differently god cannot know how he is going to act.
So god doesn't have to make a person act a certain way, simply knowing how a person is going to act is enough to make free will impossible.

You're stretching the meaning of omniscient into precognitive. If God is precognitive, then there is only one possible timeline for human existence and there is no free will because everything is already decided (by God? or somebody). That is a very linear interpretation though.

Mr. Nate has stated, and I agree, that God knows all possible outcomes. Literally an infinite number of possible futures based on the factual information that he has right now. If I choose to stay in bed five minutes late, he could extrapolate how that decision might effect me twenty years hence (I might be rushing to work instead of stopping to buy that five million dollar lottery ticket, for instance). Isn't this God smarter and more all-knowing than the one who zealously guards the one and only timeline?

From our perspective there is only one future. It's the combined work of each of us making myriad decisions every day. That is not to say that our perspective is the only one though. God can certainly see every possible outcome which qualifies him as "all-knowing". It also makes him a good guide and advisor. It does not mean, however, that we have no choice with regard to following his guidance, nor does it imply a precognitive grasp of the future.

[CrazyAnglican]

I guess I'll have to actually read the passage. I've read bits and parts of the bible. I also listen a little bit to preachers on the tv. I have no excuse since I work in a book store. To be honest with you it seems a little intimidating because it's so big and I don't know how far I'd get.

It took me about three years reading one chapter a day. It’s well worth reading. It is challenging and If you’re like me there will be parts that are just incomprehensible. I look on it as “Well CA you’re just not there yet. Keep trying and it will make sense”. It’s the whole “Seek and ye shall find thing”.

A very sobering thought. Ok, so he'll show up. Why did he have to leave in the first place?

That's assuming that he left. I feel his influence on my life in many ways, and begin most mornings asking for his presence and guidance in my life. There's a difference between remaining hidden to our outward senses and being totally removed. Have you ever known someone was standing behind you even though they were being quiet? It’s kind of like that for me, no burning bushes needed..

As for the whole 'let's not ever discuss religion in public' sentiment I think that's just silly. How can anyone choose what they want to believe unless they engage a variety of people and weigh all opinions. You have to be exposed to ideas before you can say yes or no to them. My opinion, it should be an elective course. I think that people that can't handle discussing religion are weak, but at least it would be their choice if they took the course.

It seems we agree here, there’s no harm in stating what you believe. As for the “not discussing religion in public sentiment”, I don’t think it’s silly. I think it is a strategy. Once religion is seen as something to be hidden or ashamed of what would most people choose as a default?

Agreed. If God really is personal (a concept I haven't accepted as of yet) then I would owe him the respect of being authentic and genuine. After all, it's what I would expect from him. I get the feeling sometimes that many people are only religious during holidays. Do you practice what you preach every day? I guess this is what I'm actually looking for - a God who is just straightforward, direct, and genuine.

I believe that he is so. The laws are direct. Christ gave his life for my sins. The Holy Spirit is with the world. It’s easy to get caught up in one story and not think of the big picture. Kinda like my strategy on the World 2.1 map.

Yes and No. I do not believe that anyone, no matter how moral, can earn a salvation on their own. I have no knowledge of how people would be saved outside of Christianity, but that doesn't mean that salvation is impossible for them. It's just outside of my experience or knowledge.

Yeah, but there are many religious rules. What is their purpose if nobody can achieve them on their own? Of course I would want to obey them but let's be honest. Every single person on the earth is a hypocrite in one way, shape, or form.

It’s my understanding that to a Christian salvation isn’t found in the law but in God’s mercy and Christ’s sacrifice. The laws are guidance on how to live a good life, but without God's mercy none will be saved. So each of us is equally unworthy of Heaven, but God extends the invitation to everyone anyway.

Nice posts, Anglican. You don't sound so crazy!

Thanks, ya’ caught me in a lucid moment

[satanspaladin]

Hello jc

Can i state for the record that i am an agnostic, i have no wish to offend any ones faith
I am just trying to find out why you do have faith in god and why i can not find it in me .

I have just started reading the bible and am finding it hard to comprehend the contradiction in his dealing with mankind .

In the story of Noah he kill every living thing for being evil except for Noah and his family. and the animals that were put on to his boat .

So my questions are how can a plant be evil ,what about all the whales ,dolphins did he have water tanks on ark for them?
Did God separate the fresh water from the salt water ?

And why did God find the odour of burnt flesh pleasing in Noah's sacrifice .i know we kill animals to live but just for sacrifices that just so wrong to me .

Then God go on to say “Never again will I put the earth under a curse because of what man dose ;I know that from the time he is young his thoughts are evil .never again will I destroy all living beings .

If he knows that we are evil in though why did he kill all living things the first time and why did the animals of the planet get destroyed for the evil we did ?

I thank you for the time sum of you have spent on explaining how you see the bible to me.

Ps before the grammatical police tell me yet again that i don't know how to spell ,punctuate or how to set out a paragraph I know.

Do feel free to put me on your ignore list if I offend you sensibility with my poor grammar