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Faith and Fact

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Postby Frigidus on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:27 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Faith is everywhere, certainly not just in religion. There are few basic facts that can really be ascertained, because most "facts" rely on a given which is an assumption based on faith.

Empirical evidence is seen by many as "fact" (myself included), but even then, it relies on a basic assumption of faith that empirical evidence is valid. Empirical evidence is gathered by the senses, but that presupposes a basic faith in the senses. They are, in essence, how we perceive the outside world, and there is NO WAY of proving that they are correct. Really, the only thing you can prove is your own existence, and even that is sketchy (I think therefore I am).

My point is that our perception of "truth" is entirely based on faith, or rather, what you put faith in. Most Christians put faith in God in the same way that they put faith in their senses - it's a basic, though unprovable, assumption which has determined their perception of truth.


Descartes gave it a good shot.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:32 pm

I think in a lot of ways, faith gets a bit of a bad rap. Partly for me at least, secularizing society has forced the religiously devoted to take some of the elements of their religion and ascribe more of an importance to them, than perhaps was the case in the past. By taking some of the perhaps more metaphorical elements and giving them more of a backing as what faith really is, our perceptions of what faith is as non believers gets colored in a certain direction.

There are other ways to view faith. If you view faith as something spirtual in nature that compels us to be a better person, sort of the positive energy, spirit, lifeforce (whatever you want to call it) then all of us can have some kind of faith, even those of us who are doggedly non theistic. It bears mentioning i dont believe in this necessarily either, but some people (usually the people who say they are spirtual but not religious) certainly do.

I think that type of positive encompassing sentiment has a place even in some of the avowedly secular parts of our society, people like hegel aruged they belong in everything even our sciences. For many without some type of faith the world isnt worth fighting for. And if thats what brings people to the table in order to try and do things that are good, faith isnt a terrible thing in my book.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:56 pm

Frigidus wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:Faith is everywhere, certainly not just in religion. There are few basic facts that can really be ascertained, because most "facts" rely on a given which is an assumption based on faith.

Empirical evidence is seen by many as "fact" (myself included), but even then, it relies on a basic assumption of faith that empirical evidence is valid. Empirical evidence is gathered by the senses, but that presupposes a basic faith in the senses. They are, in essence, how we perceive the outside world, and there is NO WAY of proving that they are correct. Really, the only thing you can prove is your own existence, and even that is sketchy (I think therefore I am).

My point is that our perception of "truth" is entirely based on faith, or rather, what you put faith in. Most Christians put faith in God in the same way that they put faith in their senses - it's a basic, though unprovable, assumption which has determined their perception of truth.


Descartes gave it a good shot.


Descartes gave a lot of things a good shot, including the existence of God, but I really think that his logic is wrong on most counts. The only proof of his that I (and most people) really accept is his most famous: "Cogito ergo sum"
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Postby InkL0sed on Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:11 am

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Postby AlgyTaylor on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:57 am

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Faith is everywhere, certainly not just in religion. There are few basic facts that can really be ascertained, because most "facts" rely on a given which is an assumption based on faith.

Empirical evidence is seen by many as "fact" (myself included), but even then, it relies on a basic assumption of faith that empirical evidence is valid. Empirical evidence is gathered by the senses, but that presupposes a basic faith in the senses. They are, in essence, how we perceive the outside world, and there is NO WAY of proving that they are correct. Really, the only thing you can prove is your own existence, and even that is sketchy (I think therefore I am).

My point is that our perception of "truth" is entirely based on faith, or rather, what you put faith in. Most Christians put faith in God in the same way that they put faith in their senses - it's a basic, though unprovable, assumption which has determined their perception of truth.

True in some ways, but ...
1 = 1;
1 + 1 = 2;
3 x 5 = 15;
15 / 3 = 5;

These statements don't rely on perception or faith.

Although they're more special cases of general algebraic rules:
a = a;
a + a = 2a;
a x b = ab;
ab / a = b;
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:53 pm

mandalorian2298 wrote: But, if you have just made mistake expresing yourself, then forget that I said anything. Mistakes happen. :wink:


Yeah, I was trying to add to your definition, not refute it. It's cool. No worries. :wink:
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:20 pm

AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:24 pm

luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?


#-o
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:29 pm

Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?


#-o


ok, do you think that you can prove that 1 + 1 = 2?
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:35 pm

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?


#-o


ok, do you think that you can prove that 1 + 1 = 2?


I'll bite. And I'll start with the basics. If you have one apple on a table, and you add another apple to the table, you will have two apples on the table. 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples.
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:38 pm

Neoteny wrote:I'll bite. And I'll start with the basics. If you have one apple on a table, and you add another apple to the table, you will have two apples on the table. 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples.


Alright, so if I argued with you and said that you're wrong about trying to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...what adjectives would you use to describe me?
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:39 pm

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I'll bite. And I'll start with the basics. If you have one apple on a table, and you add another apple to the table, you will have two apples on the table. 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples.


Alright, so if I argued with you and said that you're wrong about trying to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...what adjectives would you use to describe me?


Lol I will not call you a bigot or a xenophobe. Pardon my lack of tact in the past, I never do intend to offend, though my passion sometimes gets the best of me.
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:42 pm

Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I'll bite. And I'll start with the basics. If you have one apple on a table, and you add another apple to the table, you will have two apples on the table. 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples.


Alright, so if I argued with you and said that you're wrong about trying to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...what adjectives would you use to describe me?


Lol I will not call you a bigot or a xenophobe. Pardon my lack of tact in the past, I never do intend to offend, though my passion sometimes gets the best of me.


No, I'm not trying to do that. Take me out of this for a second.

Let's say you're out in the park and strike up a conversation with someone. You claim that 1 + 1 = 2 and that it's common sense that it is absolutely correct.

The other person argues with you and says, "well, I would like to see the proof that 1 + 1 = 2.

What kind of adjectives would you use to describe that person?
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:47 pm

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:I'll bite. And I'll start with the basics. If you have one apple on a table, and you add another apple to the table, you will have two apples on the table. 1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples.


Alright, so if I argued with you and said that you're wrong about trying to prove that 1 + 1 = 2...what adjectives would you use to describe me?


Lol I will not call you a bigot or a xenophobe. Pardon my lack of tact in the past, I never do intend to offend, though my passion sometimes gets the best of me.


No, I'm not trying to do that. Take me out of this for a second.

Let's say you're out in the park and strike up a conversation with someone. You claim that 1 + 1 = 2 and that it's common sense that it is absolutely correct.

The other person argues with you and says, "well, I would like to see the proof that 1 + 1 = 2.

What kind of adjectives would you use to describe that person?


A contrarian, likely.
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:50 pm

Neoteny wrote:A contrarian, likely.


meaning what?
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:51 pm

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A contrarian, likely.


meaning what?


One whose opinions or beliefs fly in the face of accepted evidence.
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Postby luns101 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:53 pm

Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A contrarian, likely.


meaning what?


One whose opinions or beliefs fly in the face of accepted evidence.


Thank you so much! You have just proved a point I made last year in arguing for absolutes. Of course, if I make the point that 1 + 1 = 2 then the atheists here get all upset. Perhaps now it will be accepted since you made that point for me.
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Postby Neoteny on Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:00 pm

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A contrarian, likely.


meaning what?


One whose opinions or beliefs fly in the face of accepted evidence.


Thank you so much! You have just proved a point I made last year in arguing for absolutes. Of course, if I make the point that 1 + 1 = 2 then the atheists here get all upset. Perhaps now it will be accepted since you made that point for me.


I'm happy I made you happy! I'm not sure how I proved anything, but then I don't know the specifics. What kind of absolute were you discussing?
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Postby Snorri1234 on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:31 am

luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?


It's true simply by definition?
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:46 am

Snorri1234 wrote:
luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2

do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?

It's true simply by definition?

indeed, which was my point that luns wouldn't hear about back when we were discussing absolutes.
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Postby AlgyTaylor on Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:38 am

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
AlgyTaylor wrote:1 + 1 = 2


do you believe that you can prove this statment to be true?


#-o


ok, do you think that you can prove that 1 + 1 = 2?

Yes.

in algebra
A + A = 2A

so therefore
1 + 1 = (2 x 1) = 2

It's pretty simple really. I know it seems a bit obvious, but that's because it's a very easy thing to prove algebraically.
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Postby AlgyTaylor on Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:49 am

luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
luns101 wrote:
Neoteny wrote:A contrarian, likely.


meaning what?


One whose opinions or beliefs fly in the face of accepted evidence.


Thank you so much! You have just proved a point I made last year in arguing for absolutes. Of course, if I make the point that 1 + 1 = 2 then the atheists here get all upset. Perhaps now it will be accepted since you made that point for me.

Um, actually the overwhelmingly vast majority of atheists* would accept 1 + 1 = 2 as being true. It's this devotion to this so-called "evidence".

If the evidence lay in favour of a supernatural being, creationism or whatever then they'd believe that. The fact is, however, that all the evidence points to no god & evolution respectively.

I'll try not to get in to this too deeply - read Richard Dawkins book "Unweaving The rainbow". It's excellent and will explain my point far more eloquently than I can!
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:17 pm

Yeah, I wasn't there for that one so I can't quite figure out what he's talking about. What absolute was being argued? He left to go tell his friends, I guess, before he answered me.
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:27 pm

It's the universal good/evil thread if I remember correctly, daddy1gringo tried to show that there is such a thing as absolute truth, I took the contrary position and a few people chimed in along the way but left pretty quickly because we wrote posts longer than 7 lines and 2 paragraphs. I'm still waiting for him to reply to it btw...
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:00 pm

MeDeFe wrote:It's the universal good/evil thread if I remember correctly, daddy1gringo tried to show that there is such a thing as absolute truth, I took the contrary position and a few people chimed in along the way but left pretty quickly because we wrote posts longer than 7 lines and 2 paragraphs. I'm still waiting for him to reply to it btw...


I see. Well I'm glad Luns is happy, at any rate.

:lol:
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