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Postby danvoy9787 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:07 pm

luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


im not seeing where ur going with this i wish u explain better wat you mean
cause to ME it sounds like ur full of bs and dont really know wat ur talking about!
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Postby muy_thaiguy on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:10 pm

danvoy9787 wrote:
luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


im not seeing where ur going with this i wish u explain better wat you mean
cause to ME it sounds like ur full of bs and dont really know wat ur talking about!
He's saying that alot of people in Europe and other places tend to look down their noses at us for the above mentioned reasons.
"Eh, whatever."
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What, you expected something deep or flashy?
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Postby danvoy9787 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:17 pm

luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


ok ive figured u out here's a response
1. ok maybe they need to work on this
2.yea because helping the ppl of our country is terrible
3.hello if men were supposed to be with other men, they would have vagina's too!
4.o yea cause our country is RUINED now seriously if he sucks so much why did he serve all 8 years? he obviously wasnt THAT bad!
5. ok a little guy trips u....what do u do shrug it off or trip him back???
6.first of all i live in south texas and i know better than u the serious threat i can send u a copy of an ACTUAL interview that a person was in and he was an illegal it was the saddest thing u would see he wants to live here but he wants us to change EVERYTHING for HIM! you need to know wats going on before u make choices!
7.our country has become one of the biggest and best thanks to the wonderful people that give their lives EVERY DAY for this country. Let's see....how is that wrong?
8.allowing ppl to worship jesus? but no u can worship WATEVER u want! yea thats bulsheet! u dont like the way we work....GET OUT!
9. yea because letting THEM get Nuclear and other deadly weapons woulda been a GREAT idea!
10.omg wtf yea there's a sin!
11.no one has ever in there life been held AGAINST there will to say the pledge!
12.yea boy scouts are racist and sexist.....so either get over it or join the girl scouts.....nobody's fuckin perfect!
13.you know wat if i wanna say merry christmas? im gonna! so merry fuckin CHRISTMAS!
14.yea....its called freedom go worship a queen!
15.we have a joke at our school about walmart taking over the world in a great WORLD WAR....ahh good times.....
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Postby Iliad on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:23 pm

danvoy9787 wrote:
luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


ok ive figured u out here's a response
1. ok maybe they need to work on this
2.yea because helping the ppl of our country is terrible
3.hello if men were supposed to be with other men, they would have vagina's too!
4.o yea cause our country is RUINED now seriously if he sucks so much why did he serve all 8 years? he obviously wasnt THAT bad!
5. ok a little guy trips u....what do u do shrug it off or trip him back???
6.first of all i live in south texas and i know better than u the serious threat i can send u a copy of an ACTUAL interview that a person was in and he was an illegal it was the saddest thing u would see he wants to live here but he wants us to change EVERYTHING for HIM! you need to know wats going on before u make choices!
7.our country has become one of the biggest and best thanks to the wonderful people that give their lives EVERY DAY for this country. Let's see....how is that wrong?
8.allowing ppl to worship jesus? but no u can worship WATEVER u want! yea thats bulsheet! u dont like the way we work....GET OUT!
9. yea because letting THEM get Nuclear and other deadly weapons woulda been a GREAT idea!
10.omg wtf yea there's a sin!
11.no one has ever in there life been held AGAINST there will to say the pledge!
12.yea boy scouts are racist and sexist.....so either get over it or join the girl scouts.....nobody's fuckin perfect!
13.you know wat if i wanna say merry christmas? im gonna! so merry fuckin CHRISTMAS!
14.yea....its called freedom go worship a queen!
15.we have a joke at our school about walmart taking over the world in a great WORLD WAR....ahh good times.....
are you like okay?
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Postby danvoy9787 on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:27 pm

Iliad wrote:
danvoy9787 wrote:
luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


ok ive figured u out here's a response
1. ok maybe they need to work on this
2.yea because helping the ppl of our country is terrible
3.hello if men were supposed to be with other men, they would have vagina's too!
4.o yea cause our country is RUINED now seriously if he sucks so much why did he serve all 8 years? he obviously wasnt THAT bad!
5. ok a little guy trips u....what do u do shrug it off or trip him back???
6.first of all i live in south texas and i know better than u the serious threat i can send u a copy of an ACTUAL interview that a person was in and he was an illegal it was the saddest thing u would see he wants to live here but he wants us to change EVERYTHING for HIM! you need to know wats going on before u make choices!
7.our country has become one of the biggest and best thanks to the wonderful people that give their lives EVERY DAY for this country. Let's see....how is that wrong?
8.allowing ppl to worship jesus? but no u can worship WATEVER u want! yea thats bulsheet! u dont like the way we work....GET OUT!
9. yea because letting THEM get Nuclear and other deadly weapons woulda been a GREAT idea!
10.omg wtf yea there's a sin!
11.no one has ever in there life been held AGAINST there will to say the pledge!
12.yea boy scouts are racist and sexist.....so either get over it or join the girl scouts.....nobody's fuckin perfect!
13.you know wat if i wanna say merry christmas? im gonna! so merry fuckin CHRISTMAS!
14.yea....its called freedom go worship a queen!
15.we have a joke at our school about walmart taking over the world in a great WORLD WAR....ahh good times.....
are you like okay?


yea dont think im bein mean or just strikin out

just putting in my two cents
which means dont start saying that i wont listen to any arguments
cause THAT is the reason i joined this
i want someone to give me some good rebuttal
i can take it
;)
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Postby MeDeFe on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:20 am

danvoy9787 wrote:
Iliad wrote:
danvoy9787 wrote:
luns101 wrote:Haha, you are really going to provoke a lot of people with this. Most of the people here from Europe already think that owning a firearm is terrible. What you should really do is ask them which is the worst sin possible according to a post-modern/socialistic worldview and have them rank them.

Something like this...What is the worst sin that the United States has committed:

1. Allowing its citizens to own guns
2. Cutting personal income taxes
3. Passing DOMA laws defining marriage as 1 man-1 woman
4. Electing George W. Bush
5. Defending itself against Islamic extremism
6. Not giving illegal immigrants free health care
7. Being patriotic
8. Allowing its citizens to worship Jesus, sometimes praying in public
9. Defeating the Soviet Union during the Cold War
10. Celebrating Columbus Day
11. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance to the American Flag
12. The Boy Scouts
13. Allowing private companies to say Merry Christmas to customers
14. Believing in natural law/natural rights
15. Wal-Mart

I'm betting it will be #4 :wink:


ok ive figured u out here's a response
1. ok maybe they need to work on this
2.yea because helping the ppl of our country is terrible
3.hello if men were supposed to be with other men, they would have vagina's too!
4.o yea cause our country is RUINED now seriously if he sucks so much why did he serve all 8 years? he obviously wasnt THAT bad!
5. ok a little guy trips u....what do u do shrug it off or trip him back???
6.first of all i live in south texas and i know better than u the serious threat i can send u a copy of an ACTUAL interview that a person was in and he was an illegal it was the saddest thing u would see he wants to live here but he wants us to change EVERYTHING for HIM! you need to know wats going on before u make choices!
7.our country has become one of the biggest and best thanks to the wonderful people that give their lives EVERY DAY for this country. Let's see....how is that wrong?
8.allowing ppl to worship jesus? but no u can worship WATEVER u want! yea thats bulsheet! u dont like the way we work....GET OUT!
9. yea because letting THEM get Nuclear and other deadly weapons woulda been a GREAT idea!
10.omg wtf yea there's a sin!
11.no one has ever in there life been held AGAINST there will to say the pledge!
12.yea boy scouts are racist and sexist.....so either get over it or join the girl scouts.....nobody's fuckin perfect!
13.you know wat if i wanna say merry christmas? im gonna! so merry fuckin CHRISTMAS!
14.yea....its called freedom go worship a queen!
15.we have a joke at our school about walmart taking over the world in a great WORLD WAR....ahh good times.....
are you like okay?


yea dont think im bein mean or just strikin out

just putting in my two cents
which means dont start saying that i wont listen to any arguments
cause THAT is the reason i joined this
i want someone to give me some good rebuttal
i can take it
;)

I would give you a rebuttal, if I knew what to respond to your post, tell me, do you mean the things you wrote, or were you being ironic, and did you realize that luns was to a large extent being ironic as well?
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
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Postby danvoy9787 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:39 am

yea i mean
most of these things seem relatively true
but you are correct
most are just ironic little tidbits of information

i.e. wal mart(i dunno they definitely have enough followers to start a war!)
and hopefully he was jesting about the health care( thats something that was a serious matter to me and im hoping he is saying it in pure jest!)
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:40 am

. Introduction
On 2 August 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest, open elections. For years they had asked for state or Federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud -- forged ballots, secret ballot counts, and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies -- by the local political boss. They got no help.

These Americans' absolute refusal to knuckle-under had been hardened by service in World War II. Having fought to free other countries from murderous regimes, they rejected vicious abuse by their county government. These Americans had a choice. Their state's Constitution - Article 1, Section 26 - recorded their right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Few "gun control" laws had been enacted.

II. The Setting
These Americans were Tennesseeans of McMinn County, located between Chattanooga and Knoxville, in Eastern Tennessee. The two main towns were Athens and Etowah.

McMinn Countians had long been independent political thinkers. They also had long:

accepted bribe-taking by politicians and/or the Sheriff to overlook illicit whiskey-making and gambling;
financed the sheriff's department from fines - usually for speeding or public drunkenness - which promoted false arrests;
put up with voting fraud by both Democrats and Republicans.
Tennessee State law barred voting fraud:

ballot boxes had to be shown to be empty before voting;
poll-watchers had to be allowed;
armed law enforcement officers were barred from polling places;
ballots had to be counted where any voter could watch.
III. The Circumstances
The Great Depression had ravaged McMinn County. Drought broke many farmers; workforces shrank. The wealthy Cantrell family, of Etowah, backed Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1932 election, hoping New Deal programs would revive the local economy and help Democrats to replace Republicans in the county government. So it proved.

Paul Cantrell was elected Sheriff in the 1936, 1938, and 1940 elections, but by slim margins. The Sheriff was the key County official. Cantrell was elected to the State Senate in 1942 and 1944; his chief deputy, Pat Mansfield, was elected sheriff. In 1946, Paul Cantrell again sought the Sheriff's office.

IV. World War II Ends; Paul Cantrell's Troubles Begin
At end-1945, some 3,000 battle-hardened veterans returned to McMinn County. Sheriff Mansfield's deputies had brutalized many in McMinn County; the GIs held Cantrell politically responsible for Mansfield's doings. Early in 1946, some newly-returned ex-GIs decided:

to challenge Cantrell politically;
to offer an all ex-GI, non-partisan ticket;
to promise a fraud-free election.
In ads and speeches the GI candidates promised:

an honest ballot count;
reform of county government.
At a rally, a GI speaker said, "'The principals that we fought for in this past war do not exist in McMinn County. We fought for democracy because we believe in democracy but not the form we live under in this county.'" (Daily Post-Athenian, 17 June 1946, p. 1).

At end-July 1946, 159 McMinn County GIs petitioned the FBI to send election monitors. There was no response. The Department of Justice had not responded to McMinn Countians' complaints of election fraud in 1940, 1942, and 1944.

V. From Ballots to Bullets
The election was held on 1 August. To intimidate voters, Mansfield brought in some 200 armed "deputies". GI poll-watchers were beaten almost at once. At about 3 p.m., Tom Gillespie, an African-American voter, was told by a Sheriff's deputy, "'Nigger, you can't vote here today!!'". Despite being beaten, Gillespie persisted; the enraged deputy shot him. The gunshot drew a crowd. Rumors spread that Gillespie had been "shot in the back"; he later recovered. (C. Stephen Byrum, The Battle of Athens; Paidia Productions, Chattanooga TN, 1987; pp. 155-57).

Other deputies detained ex-GI poll-watchers in a polling place, as that made the ballot count "public". A crowd gathered. Sheriff Mansfield told his deputies to disperse the crowd. When the two ex-GIs smashed a big window and escaped, the crowd surged forward. "The deputies, with guns drawn, formed a tight half-circle around the front of the polling place. One deputy, "his gun raised high ...shouted: 'You sons-of-bitches cross this street and I'll kill you!'" (Byrum, p. 165).

Mansfield took the ballot boxes to the jail for counting. The deputies seemed to fear immediate attack, by the "people who had just liberated Europe and the South Pacific from two of the most powerful war machines in human history." (Byrum, pp. 168-69).

Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard Armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols, and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end.

By eight p.m., a group of GIs and "local boys" headed for the jail to get the ballot boxes. They occupied high ground facing the jail but left the back door unguarded to give the jail's defenders an easy way out.

VI. The Battle of Athens
Three GIs - alerting passersby to danger - were fired on from the jail. Two GIs were wounded. Other GIs returned fire. Those inside the jail mainly used pistols; they also had a "tommy gun" (a .45 caliber Thompson sub-machine gun).

Firing subsided after 30 minutes: ammunition ran low and night had fallen. Thick brick walls shielded those inside the jail. Absent radios, the GIs' rifle fire was un-coordinated. "From the hillside, fire rose and fell in disorganized cascades. More than anything else, people were simply 'shooting at the jail'." (Byrum, p. 189).

Several who ventured into "no man's land", the street in front of the jail, were wounded. One man inside the jail was badly hurt; he recovered. Most sheriff's deputies wanted to hunker down and await rescue. Governor McCord mobilized the State Guard, perhaps to scare the GIs into withdrawing. The State Guard never went to Athens. McCord may have feared that Guard units filled with ex-GIs might not fire on other ex-GIs.

At about 2 a.m. on 2 August, the GIs forced the issue. Men from Meigs county threw dynamite sticks and damaged the jail's porch. The panicked deputies surrendered. GIs quickly secured the building. Paul Cantrell faded into the night, almost having been shot by a GI who knew him, but whose .45 pistol had jammed. Mansfield's deputies were kept overnight in jail for their own safety. Calm soon returned: the GIs posted guards. The rifles borrowed from the armory were cleaned and returned before sun-up.

VII. The Aftermath: Restoring Democracy in McMinn County
In five precincts free of vote fraud, the GI candidate for Sheriff, Knox Henry, won 1,168 votes to Cantrell's 789. Other GI candidates won by similar margins.

The GIs did not hate Cantrell. They only wanted honest government. On 2 August, a town meeting set up a three-man governing committee. The regular police having fled, six men were chosen to police Athens; a dozen GIs were sent to police Etowah. In addition, "Individual citizens were called upon to form patrols or guard groups, often led by a GI. ...To their credit, however, there is not a single mention of an abuse of power on their behalf." (Byrum, p. 220).

Once the GI candidates' victory had been certified, they cleaned-up county government:

the jail was fixed;
newly-elected officials accepted a $5,000 pay limit;
Mansfield supporters who resigned, were replaced.
The general election on 5 November passed quietly. McMinn Countians, having restored the Rule of Law, returned to their daily lives. Pat Mansfield moved back to Georgia. Paul Cantrell set up an auto dealership in Etowah. "Almost everyone who knew Cantrell in the years after the 'Battle' agree that he was not bitter about what had happened." (Byrum, pp. 232-33; see also New York Times, 9 August 1946, p. 8).

VIII. The Outsiders' Response
The Battle of Athens made national headlines. Most outsiders' reports had the errors usual in coverage of large-scale, night-time events. A New York Times editorialist on 3 August savaged the GIs, who:

"...quite obviously - though we hope erroneously - felt that there was no city, county, or State agency to whom they could turn for justice.

... "There is a warning for all of us in the occurrence...and above all a warning for the veterans of McMinn County, who also violated a fundamental principle of democracy when they arrogated to themselves the right of law enforcement for which they had no election mandate. Corruption, when and where it exists, demands reform, and even in the most corrupt and boss-ridden communities there are peaceful means by which reform can be achieved. But there is no substitute, in a democracy, for orderly process." (NYT, 3 Aug 1946, p. 14.)

The editorialist did not see:

McMinn Countians' many appeals for outside help;
some ruthless people only respect force;
that it was wrong to equate use of force by evil-doers (Cantrell and Mansfield) with the righteous (the GIs).
The New York Times:

never saw that Cantrell and Mansfield's wholesale election fraud, enforced at gun-point, trampled the Rule of Law;
feared citizens' restoring the Rule of Law by armed force.
Other outsiders, e.g., Time and Newsweek, agreed. (See Time, 12 August 1946, p. 20; Newsweek, 12 Aug 1946, p. 31 and 9 September 1946, p. 38).

The 79th Congress adjourned on 2 August 1946, when the Battle of Athens ended. However, Representative John Jennings, Jr., from Tennessee decried:

McMinn County's sorry situation under Cantrell and Mansfield;
the Justice Department's repeated failures to help the McMinn Countians.
Jennings was delighted that "...at long last decency and honesty, liberty and law have returned to the fine county of McMinn...". (Congressional Record, House; U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1946; Appendix, Volume 92, Part 13, p. A4870.)

IX. The Lessons of Athens
Those who took up arms in Athens, Tennessee:

wanted honest elections, a cornerstone of our Constitutional order;
had repeatedly tried to get Federal or State election monitors;
used armed force so as to minimize harm to the law-breakers;
showed little malice to the defeated law-breakers;
restored lawful government.
The Battle of Athens clearly shows:

how Americans can and should lawfully use armed force;
why the Rule of Law requires unrestricted access to firearms;
how civilians with military-type firearms can beat the forces of "law and order".
Dictators believe that public order is more important than the Rule of Law. However, Americans reject this idea. Criminals can exploit for selfish ends, the use armed force to restore the Rule of Law. But brutal political repression - as practiced by Cantrell and Mansfield - is lethal to many. An individual criminal can harm a handful of people. Governments alone can brutalize thousands, or millions.

Since 1915, officials of seven governments "gone bad" have committed genocide, murdering at least 56 million persons, including millions of children. "Gun control" clears the way for genocide by giving governments "gone bad" far greater freedom to commit mass murder.

Law-abiding McMinn Countians won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control". McMinn Countians showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the Rule of Law. We are all in their debt.

This is a bare bones summary of a major report in JPFO's Firearms Sentinel (January 1995). To learn how the gutsy people of Athens, Tennessee did the Framers of the Constitution proud, send $3 to JPFO, 2872 South Wentworth Avenue; Milwaukee, WI 53207; and request the January 1995 Firearms Sentinel. This document is from: chiliast@ideasign.com (A.K. Pritchard)
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Postby Dancing Mustard on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:59 am

Dekloren wrote:. Introduction
On 2 August 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest, open elections. For years they had asked for state or Federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud -- forged ballots, secret ballot counts, and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies -- by the local political boss. They got no help.

These Americans' absolute refusal to knuckle-under had been hardened by service in World War II. Having fought to free other countries from murderous regimes, they rejected vicious abuse by their county government. These Americans had a choice. Their state's Constitution - Article 1, Section 26 - recorded their right to keep and bear arms for the common defense. Few "gun control" laws had been enacted.

II. The Setting
These Americans were Tennesseeans of McMinn County, located between Chattanooga and Knoxville, in Eastern Tennessee. The two main towns were Athens and Etowah.

McMinn Countians had long been independent political thinkers. They also had long:

accepted bribe-taking by politicians and/or the Sheriff to overlook illicit whiskey-making and gambling;
financed the sheriff's department from fines - usually for speeding or public drunkenness - which promoted false arrests;
put up with voting fraud by both Democrats and Republicans.
Tennessee State law barred voting fraud:

ballot boxes had to be shown to be empty before voting;
poll-watchers had to be allowed;
armed law enforcement officers were barred from polling places;
ballots had to be counted where any voter could watch.
III. The Circumstances
The Great Depression had ravaged McMinn County. Drought broke many farmers; workforces shrank. The wealthy Cantrell family, of Etowah, backed Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1932 election, hoping New Deal programs would revive the local economy and help Democrats to replace Republicans in the county government. So it proved.

Paul Cantrell was elected Sheriff in the 1936, 1938, and 1940 elections, but by slim margins. The Sheriff was the key County official. Cantrell was elected to the State Senate in 1942 and 1944; his chief deputy, Pat Mansfield, was elected sheriff. In 1946, Paul Cantrell again sought the Sheriff's office.

IV. World War II Ends; Paul Cantrell's Troubles Begin
At end-1945, some 3,000 battle-hardened veterans returned to McMinn County. Sheriff Mansfield's deputies had brutalized many in McMinn County; the GIs held Cantrell politically responsible for Mansfield's doings. Early in 1946, some newly-returned ex-GIs decided:

to challenge Cantrell politically;
to offer an all ex-GI, non-partisan ticket;
to promise a fraud-free election.
In ads and speeches the GI candidates promised:

an honest ballot count;
reform of county government.
At a rally, a GI speaker said, "'The principals that we fought for in this past war do not exist in McMinn County. We fought for democracy because we believe in democracy but not the form we live under in this county.'" (Daily Post-Athenian, 17 June 1946, p. 1).

At end-July 1946, 159 McMinn County GIs petitioned the FBI to send election monitors. There was no response. The Department of Justice had not responded to McMinn Countians' complaints of election fraud in 1940, 1942, and 1944.

V. From Ballots to Bullets
The election was held on 1 August. To intimidate voters, Mansfield brought in some 200 armed "deputies". GI poll-watchers were beaten almost at once. At about 3 p.m., Tom Gillespie, an African-American voter, was told by a Sheriff's deputy, "'Nigger, you can't vote here today!!'". Despite being beaten, Gillespie persisted; the enraged deputy shot him. The gunshot drew a crowd. Rumors spread that Gillespie had been "shot in the back"; he later recovered. (C. Stephen Byrum, The Battle of Athens; Paidia Productions, Chattanooga TN, 1987; pp. 155-57).

Other deputies detained ex-GI poll-watchers in a polling place, as that made the ballot count "public". A crowd gathered. Sheriff Mansfield told his deputies to disperse the crowd. When the two ex-GIs smashed a big window and escaped, the crowd surged forward. "The deputies, with guns drawn, formed a tight half-circle around the front of the polling place. One deputy, "his gun raised high ...shouted: 'You sons-of-bitches cross this street and I'll kill you!'" (Byrum, p. 165).

Mansfield took the ballot boxes to the jail for counting. The deputies seemed to fear immediate attack, by the "people who had just liberated Europe and the South Pacific from two of the most powerful war machines in human history." (Byrum, pp. 168-69).

Short of firearms and ammunition, the GIs scoured the county to find them. By borrowing keys to the National Guard and State Guard Armories, they got three M-1 rifles, five .45 semi-automatic pistols, and 24 British Enfield rifles. The armories were nearly empty after the war's end.

By eight p.m., a group of GIs and "local boys" headed for the jail to get the ballot boxes. They occupied high ground facing the jail but left the back door unguarded to give the jail's defenders an easy way out.

VI. The Battle of Athens
Three GIs - alerting passersby to danger - were fired on from the jail. Two GIs were wounded. Other GIs returned fire. Those inside the jail mainly used pistols; they also had a "tommy gun" (a .45 caliber Thompson sub-machine gun).

Firing subsided after 30 minutes: ammunition ran low and night had fallen. Thick brick walls shielded those inside the jail. Absent radios, the GIs' rifle fire was un-coordinated. "From the hillside, fire rose and fell in disorganized cascades. More than anything else, people were simply 'shooting at the jail'." (Byrum, p. 189).

Several who ventured into "no man's land", the street in front of the jail, were wounded. One man inside the jail was badly hurt; he recovered. Most sheriff's deputies wanted to hunker down and await rescue. Governor McCord mobilized the State Guard, perhaps to scare the GIs into withdrawing. The State Guard never went to Athens. McCord may have feared that Guard units filled with ex-GIs might not fire on other ex-GIs.

At about 2 a.m. on 2 August, the GIs forced the issue. Men from Meigs county threw dynamite sticks and damaged the jail's porch. The panicked deputies surrendered. GIs quickly secured the building. Paul Cantrell faded into the night, almost having been shot by a GI who knew him, but whose .45 pistol had jammed. Mansfield's deputies were kept overnight in jail for their own safety. Calm soon returned: the GIs posted guards. The rifles borrowed from the armory were cleaned and returned before sun-up.

VII. The Aftermath: Restoring Democracy in McMinn County
In five precincts free of vote fraud, the GI candidate for Sheriff, Knox Henry, won 1,168 votes to Cantrell's 789. Other GI candidates won by similar margins.

The GIs did not hate Cantrell. They only wanted honest government. On 2 August, a town meeting set up a three-man governing committee. The regular police having fled, six men were chosen to police Athens; a dozen GIs were sent to police Etowah. In addition, "Individual citizens were called upon to form patrols or guard groups, often led by a GI. ...To their credit, however, there is not a single mention of an abuse of power on their behalf." (Byrum, p. 220).

Once the GI candidates' victory had been certified, they cleaned-up county government:

the jail was fixed;
newly-elected officials accepted a $5,000 pay limit;
Mansfield supporters who resigned, were replaced.
The general election on 5 November passed quietly. McMinn Countians, having restored the Rule of Law, returned to their daily lives. Pat Mansfield moved back to Georgia. Paul Cantrell set up an auto dealership in Etowah. "Almost everyone who knew Cantrell in the years after the 'Battle' agree that he was not bitter about what had happened." (Byrum, pp. 232-33; see also New York Times, 9 August 1946, p. 8).

VIII. The Outsiders' Response
The Battle of Athens made national headlines. Most outsiders' reports had the errors usual in coverage of large-scale, night-time events. A New York Times editorialist on 3 August savaged the GIs, who:

"...quite obviously - though we hope erroneously - felt that there was no city, county, or State agency to whom they could turn for justice.

... "There is a warning for all of us in the occurrence...and above all a warning for the veterans of McMinn County, who also violated a fundamental principle of democracy when they arrogated to themselves the right of law enforcement for which they had no election mandate. Corruption, when and where it exists, demands reform, and even in the most corrupt and boss-ridden communities there are peaceful means by which reform can be achieved. But there is no substitute, in a democracy, for orderly process." (NYT, 3 Aug 1946, p. 14.)

The editorialist did not see:

McMinn Countians' many appeals for outside help;
some ruthless people only respect force;
that it was wrong to equate use of force by evil-doers (Cantrell and Mansfield) with the righteous (the GIs).
The New York Times:

never saw that Cantrell and Mansfield's wholesale election fraud, enforced at gun-point, trampled the Rule of Law;
feared citizens' restoring the Rule of Law by armed force.
Other outsiders, e.g., Time and Newsweek, agreed. (See Time, 12 August 1946, p. 20; Newsweek, 12 Aug 1946, p. 31 and 9 September 1946, p. 38).

The 79th Congress adjourned on 2 August 1946, when the Battle of Athens ended. However, Representative John Jennings, Jr., from Tennessee decried:

McMinn County's sorry situation under Cantrell and Mansfield;
the Justice Department's repeated failures to help the McMinn Countians.
Jennings was delighted that "...at long last decency and honesty, liberty and law have returned to the fine county of McMinn...". (Congressional Record, House; U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1946; Appendix, Volume 92, Part 13, p. A4870.)

IX. The Lessons of Athens
Those who took up arms in Athens, Tennessee:

wanted honest elections, a cornerstone of our Constitutional order;
had repeatedly tried to get Federal or State election monitors;
used armed force so as to minimize harm to the law-breakers;
showed little malice to the defeated law-breakers;
restored lawful government.
The Battle of Athens clearly shows:

how Americans can and should lawfully use armed force;
why the Rule of Law requires unrestricted access to firearms;
how civilians with military-type firearms can beat the forces of "law and order".
Dictators believe that public order is more important than the Rule of Law. However, Americans reject this idea. Criminals can exploit for selfish ends, the use armed force to restore the Rule of Law. But brutal political repression - as practiced by Cantrell and Mansfield - is lethal to many. An individual criminal can harm a handful of people. Governments alone can brutalize thousands, or millions.

Since 1915, officials of seven governments "gone bad" have committed genocide, murdering at least 56 million persons, including millions of children. "Gun control" clears the way for genocide by giving governments "gone bad" far greater freedom to commit mass murder.

Law-abiding McMinn Countians won the Battle of Athens because they were not hamstrung by "gun control". McMinn Countians showed us when citizens can and should use armed force to support the Rule of Law. We are all in their debt.

This is a bare bones summary of a major report in JPFO's Firearms Sentinel (January 1995). To learn how the gutsy people of Athens, Tennessee did the Framers of the Constitution proud, send $3 to JPFO, 2872 South Wentworth Avenue; Milwaukee, WI 53207; and request the January 1995 Firearms Sentinel. This document is from: chiliast@ideasign.com (A.K. Pritchard)

Well that was unecessarily long...
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:04 am

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?

Keep moving away from the Constitution that once made your country so free and great.

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Postby Dancing Mustard on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:16 am

Dekloren wrote:If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?
American crime figures answer that question in the affirmative.

Why do you people keep trotting out the same old mantra when it's already been shown to be false? Please stop imagining that all criminals are rational pre-meditating thinkers; there is a distinct class of felon that does not make cost/benefit analysis before perpetrating crimes, there is another class of felon who does not see the threat of armed reprisal as being a deterent, there are many offences where the possibility of armed reprisal is not realistic.

Simply because people might have guns does not make it less likely that a felon will perpetrate crime, it only makes it more likely that they will use a weapon to assist in that perpetration. How much more obvious does this have to be made to you?
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:21 am

None.

You didn't answer my question.

Would you rob a store, knowing everyone else in the store, also carried a gun?

Stop trying to defy logic and basic human instinct.
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Postby Dancing Mustard on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:36 am

Dekloren wrote:Would you rob a store, knowing everyone else in the store, also carried a gun?

Me personaly? No.
You see, you and me aren't armed robbers or career criminals... we don't rob shops regardless of who does and doesn't have guns. Thinking the situation through from our perspective doesn't actually prove anything.

Let's look at it through the eyes of some more likely suspects, would these people rob your shop in which everyone was armed?

1. The kind of guy who already robs stores for a living? Maybe he will. If he doesn't then he'll probably just come back at night when there's only the shop-owner present. Where is your armed mob now?

2. The kind of guy who already robs stores for a living, knowing full well that the owner is probably packing a weapon? Yes, he probably will, he pretty much does this crime already and the extra risk is minimal.

3. The kind of guy who robs stores to fund his addiction to crack, who happens to be coming down off of his last hit, and is unable to buy another? Yes, he'll rob a whole chain of your stores without a second thought.

4. The kind of guy who shoots chunks out of Virginia Tech and Columbine because he's a suicidal, homicidal lunatic? Yes, he'll rob your precious gun-toting store with fucking pleasure.

Dekloren wrote:Stop trying to defy logic and basic human instinct.
Stop imagining that everybody is a gentleman who lives by your own internal standards, how many criminals have you actually met? Stop pretending to understand the criminal mindset, and quit appealing to abstract untenable notions that don't actually exist in the minds of the people you're hoping to influence with them.

Crime figures already show that your gun-littered paradise doesn't (and will not) work. Just taking a naive and sheltered viewpoint in which you imagine that all criminals think like you do isn't going to help. Try re-reading what I posted the first time and actually considering it instead of attempting to tie me into odd little verbal traps in the vain hope that they'll prove something.
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Postby Iz Man on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:40 am

Dancing Mustard wrote:
Dekloren wrote:If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?

Simply because people might have guns does not make it less likely that a felon will perpetrate crime, it only makes it more likely that they will use a weapon to assist in that perpetration. How much more obvious does this have to be made to you?

Couldn't be much further from the truth.

Gun Control law's have not and will not control crime; if anything it will increase crime. There are thousands of gun control law's throughout the United States, and since their implementation crime has sky-rocketed. Law abiding citizen's, by definition, obey the law, felon's by definition do not.

If you were to take a map of the United States and highlight the areas with the most restrictive gun control, and then overlay that map with the areas of the highest crime you would see the overlay fits almost perfectly. Why is that? Could it be that the felon would rather practice his trade in an area that he could be fairly certain that their prey would be unarmed?

The two best examples to illustrate this point are Morton Grove, Illinois, and Kenesaw, Georgia. Morton Grove introduced strict gun control, and the crime rate increased five fold, Kenesaw required that all head of household be armed and their crime rate decreased dramatically.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=55288

The numbers don't lie. From the article:
"Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189. ......
By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000."
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:45 am

Thanks buddy!

I don't feel it neccessary to dig up such information when common sense entails a simple one line response.

Unfortunately, common sense is not common.
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Postby nate15810 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 am

i've taken the gun course to hunt with my dad. it's 10 hours and they tell you EVERYTHING to do and not to do with the guns. this can be obeyed or disobeyed by you and you have to accept the consequences. i also had the chance to take a course that would legalize you to carry around a firearm in public. i don't live in a big city or anything, so i don't need to carry a gun around for safety. pepper spray and tazers work well, anaway (you can buy tazers legally some places, but not in my state...or firewerkz for that matter).
and for a machine gun, you also need a special lisence.
These are good enough to ensure gun control. But sitll, if you disobey the law, you pay the consequences. :P
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Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:55 am

Iz Man wrote:
Dancing Mustard wrote:
Dekloren wrote:If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?

Simply because people might have guns does not make it less likely that a felon will perpetrate crime, it only makes it more likely that they will use a weapon to assist in that perpetration. How much more obvious does this have to be made to you?

Couldn't be much further from the truth.

Gun Control law's have not and will not control crime; if anything it will increase crime. There are thousands of gun control law's throughout the United States, and since their implementation crime has sky-rocketed. Law abiding citizen's, by definition, obey the law, felon's by definition do not.

If you were to take a map of the United States and highlight the areas with the most restrictive gun control, and then overlay that map with the areas of the highest crime you would see the overlay fits almost perfectly. Why is that? Could it be that the felon would rather practice his trade in an area that he could be fairly certain that their prey would be unarmed?

The two best examples to illustrate this point are Morton Grove, Illinois, and Kenesaw, Georgia. Morton Grove introduced strict gun control, and the crime rate increased five fold, Kenesaw required that all head of household be armed and their crime rate decreased dramatically.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=55288

The numbers don't lie. From the article:
"Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189. ......
By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000."


Well obviously if you only ban guns in one part of the country and making them freely available in the rest of it, it's not going to work.
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Postby kalishnikov on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:36 am

A common misconception is that the US has fairly loose gun laws which leads to a high crime rate. Thats not the case.

If guns were completely illegal for everyone but the cops and the military (f*ck that, tyranny anyone?) our crime rate would still remain high. Crime is a product of our society, the way we treat each other, and several other factors. The Emerikan Dream is nothing but a lust for material wealth, those who cannot satisfy their desire for things in a legal way turn to crime to get what they want.

Living in a pretty poor and predominantly black neighborhood (statistically the places with the highest crime rate) you can see it on a daily basis. A good friend of mine is a highschool dropout, can barely read or spell his own name, the reason for his dropping out of school was to devote more time to bangin/slingin (gang activities for you old folks), his dream in life is to own several nice cars, with big rims, and have money to feel secure. Our culture and society has pushed him to crave these things, things he knew he could never attain in a legal manner, so he took the way he knew he could accomplish.

If guns we're under a strict control, said friend-of-mine would just do stick-and-runs with a knife instead. Ease of access to guns does not directly translate to a higher crime rate, our culture pushing material significance onto the youth DOES. When you live in some places in this dump called Emerika, owning/carrying a firearm is almost a necessity to protect yourself against people like my nameless friend, who see their only way to happiness is to take what you have.

Guns do not cause violence, people just use them for that. Society breeds contempt, then disenfranchised youths seek out guns as tools to get what they want. By banning owning guns all you are doing is putting us who legally obtained weapons/legally carry them in a tough spot. I've got a Concealed Carry permit, if you walked the streets I do every night you would carry a weapon also, but never once have I needed it/drawn it in fear or anger, but someday I WILL need it. And when that day comes and I'm gettin mugged by 6 gangstas, what the f*ck do I do if I don't have a gun? Call the cops? Please, I'm a German/Russian white twenty-something in the ghetto with a bunch of bangers/thugs, by the time the cops show they won't even find the laces from my boots...

Banning guns puts the power in 3 groups' hands, none of which should be more powerful then the average citizen: cops, military, gangs. History has proven all these groups CAN become your enemy. And the illegal element will always have weapons as they and procured illegally, the local laws make no difference in how hard it is to obtain them, they WILL have them but then the average Joe has no means to protect themselves.

When you take away our guns you guarantee us becoming the victims of crime, be it a mugging or a military oppression, it will happen eventually. Ever self-respecting citizen should at least own and be familiar with the use of a weapon, if not carry and be proficient. Liberties like this that we take for granted yet could literally save our lives are the most important thing in the world. I'll end with a good, old quote:

You can take my guns, sure; when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
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Postby Iz Man on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:07 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:Well obviously if you only ban guns in one part of the country and making them freely available in the rest of it, it's not going to work.

That's pretty weak.
How do you explain the results in Kenesaw, Georgia?
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Postby Neoteny on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:44 pm

Iz Man wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:Well obviously if you only ban guns in one part of the country and making them freely available in the rest of it, it's not going to work.

That's pretty weak.
How do you explain the results in Kenesaw, Georgia?


Kennesaw is scary....

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Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:21 pm

Iz Man wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:Well obviously if you only ban guns in one part of the country and making them freely available in the rest of it, it's not going to work.

That's pretty weak.

It's not weak, it's perfectly logical. If you allow criminals to obtain guns very easily, it's certainly not going to decrease the crime rate. But really, I wonder about the penalties for possesion there. Can you cite the law, as that article doesn't. (Worldnetdaily always seems to forget that....)

Also, one should know that Morton Grove, Illinois, has been rated as one of the Ten best towns for famillies, in 2007 it seems, just like Kennesaw...
Obviously, the increased crime rate hasn't done much.

How do you explain the results in Kenesaw, Georgia?


I don't, as the only source I have at my disposal is an article from a well known right-wing publication. Show a source I can trust with no bias.
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Postby got tonkaed on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:30 pm

Dekloren wrote:A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?

Keep moving away from the Constitution that once made your country so free and great.

Ron Paul goes strictly by what the Constitution says.


i bet you it would still happen. It would probably mean more people ended up dead though in the robberies.
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Postby Iz Man on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:10 pm

Snorri1234 wrote:It's not weak, it's perfectly logical. If you allow criminals to obtain guns very easily, it's certainly not going to decrease the crime rate. But really, I wonder about the penalties for possesion there. Can you cite the law, as that article doesn't. (Worldnetdaily always seems to forget that....)

The law in Kenesaw forbids criminals & the mentally ill from obtaining firearms; ergo criminals do not obtain them. Hence the dramatic decrease in violent crimes since the law's inception.
Snorri1234 wrote:Also, one should know that Morton Grove, Illinois, has been rated as one of the Ten best towns for famillies, in 2007 it seems, just like Kennesaw...Obviously, the increased crime rate hasn't done much.

Not sure where you got your info there. I know I would not want to live there given the violent crime escalation since their ban on handguns started. Maybe you would like to move there? :?
Iz Man wrote:How do you explain the results in Kenesaw, Georgia?
Snorri1234 wrote:I don't, as the only source I have at my disposal is an article from a well known right-wing publication. Show a source I can trust with no bias.

Exactly. You don't; and your only recourse at this point is to discount an article I referred to as "right-wing".
Are you implying that Kenesaw, Georgia does not have a law on the books requiring firearm ownership, and since then there has not been a dramatic drop in violent crime, because I cited a Worldnetdaily article?
Your rebuttal is quickly losing steam.

Facts:
Morton Grove, Ill bans firearm ownership, violent crime rate increases.
Kenesaw, GA mandates firearm ownership, violent crime decreases.

I asked you why, and all you can say is Worldnetdaily is a right-wing publication.

Once again, your argument is weak.
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:42 pm

got tonkaed wrote:
Dekloren wrote:A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If everyone owned a gun, would you rob a store, knowing that everyone there also has a gun?

Keep moving away from the Constitution that once made your country so free and great.

Ron Paul goes strictly by what the Constitution says.


i bet you it would still happen. It would probably mean more people ended up dead though in the robberies.


I'm sure there'll be a couple isolated cases.
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Postby Napoleon Ier on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:50 pm

What's more, self-defence is a simple right, regardlessof what crime rates say.

However it is also true that if people were trained and able to defend themselves, I could guarantee that crime rates would be lower. Really. Look up homicide rates in Switzerland and Israel.
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