WWII without America?

[Qwert]

I didn't see the reference to Manchuria either. The Chinese used U.S. aid to stop the Japanese advances. The Japanese just took too much territory too quickly(elsewhere in the pacific), and streched her forces thinly. And so
Japan sort of ignored China once her advances had stalled. Instead, she went for resources elsewhere. I think that it is niave to say that Japan wasn't winning against China. It's not about the battle, its about the war.

Do you see a map of Japanese conquer of China? They conquer only part where Armour unit can progres fast.
Again Chinese used U.S aid?!Yea like Russian for Moscow Battle
Japanese halt all hes advances after several decisive loses in 1941,before US involvment. He again start ofensive in years 1944. Japan whas in more worse situation then Germany on begining of war,they front whas several 1000 miles from Japan,fighting agains more enemies-Australia,China,British,and not forget Germany have only one oponent(in begining of war they have non agresion pact with Soviet union)and front whas very close-Britain..
4-5 milion Japanes,can not fight and hold huge part of southeast Asia,and you know these.

[muy_thaiguy]

I didn't see the reference to Manchuria either. The Chinese used U.S. aid to stop the Japanese advances. The Japanese just took too much territory too quickly(elsewhere in the pacific), and streched her forces thinly. And so
Japan sort of ignored China once her advances had stalled. Instead, she went for resources elsewhere. I think that it is niave to say that Japan wasn't winning against China. It's not about the battle, its about the war.

Do you see a map of Japanese conquer of China? They conquer only part where Armour unit can progres fast.
Again Chinese used U.S aid?!Yea like Russian for Moscow Battle
Japanese halt all hes advances after several decisive loses in 1941,before US involvment. He again start ofensive in years 1944. Japan whas in more worse situation then Germany on begining of war,they front whas several 1000 miles from Japan,fighting agains more enemies-Australia,China,British,and not forget Germany have only one oponent(in begining of war they have non agresion pact with Soviet union)and front whas very close-Britain..
4-5 milion Japanes,can not fight and hold huge part of southeast Asia,and you know these.

In relation to the first part, there were actual US forces in China providing air support and performing numerous hit and run operations. I believe they were called the Tiger Pilots, or along those lines. They fought the Japanese quite a bit and took quite a few casualties in the process. So don't you DARE say the US didn't help the Chinese.

[Simon Viavant]

Whatever happened, Japan wouldn't have attacked Russia or sent aid to Hitler. They would've kept taking over East Asia if they succeeded in taking China and then go on to Australia, but they wouldn't have atttacked Russia unless they had the rest of Asia under their control.

[Juan_Bottom]

Do you see a map of Japanese conquer of China? They conquer only part where Armour unit can progres fast.

So? This doesn't mean that the Japs weren't winning, or wouldn't have won. Japan didn't have a pressing strategic need to advance further into China. She had taken the better parts already. That's why she opened up new fronts in Southeast Asia against new enemies.

Again Chinese used U.S aid?!Yea like Russian for Moscow Battle

I can't believe you laughed at me.

Japanese halt all hes advances after several decisive loses in 1941,before US involvment. He again start ofensive in years 1944.

That's why I said this.

The Japanese just took too much territory too quickly(elsewhere in the pacific), and streched her forces thinly. And so
Japan sort of ignored China once her advances had stalled. Instead, she went for resources elsewhere.

He again start ofensive in years 1944.

---When Japan resumed her butt-kicking of the Pacific Nations, untill involving the U.S.

Japan whas in more worse situation then Germany on begining of war,they front whas several 1000 miles from Japan,fighting agains more enemies-Australia,China,British

But Japan was still winning, because her enemies were weaker. As far as the white nations go--it was due to the European theater(though racism did play a part too). She had knocked England out of the Pacific, before England had a chance to mobilize. And Australia was forced into a defensive position.
Yes Japan was streched out by the distances between fronts, but she also had ships and planes; Her smaller enemies had none. And her larger enemies couldn't spare any.

4-5 milion Japanes,can not fight and hold huge part of southeast Asia,and you know these.

But she did. Untill the U.S. got involved.

[Qwert]

The main question is what will hepend if WWII been without Soviet Union?German have non agresion PAct with SOviet Union,and what will hepent that German not attack Russian?
Ofcourse you will say"America is more superior then Germany,and America will beat German alone without any help from other allies".
Any way you are very subjective,and you belive that Germany and Japan will Conquer all Europe and asia without US involvment,and these is not true.
Without US,Russian will conquer all Germany,and then will together with Chinese Defeat Japan in China,after that Japan will negotiate for peace.

[Pedronicus]

World War 2 Facts
The first German serviceman killed in the war was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937)

The first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940).

The highest ranking American killed was Lt. Gen. Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps.

Germany’s power grid was much more vulnerable than realized. One estimate is that if just 1% of the bombs dropped on German industry had instead been dropped on power plants, German industry would have collapsed.

A number of air crewmen died of farts. (ascending to 20,000 ft. in an un-pressurized aircraft causes intestinal gas to expand 300%!)

Following a massive naval bombardment, 35,000 US and Canadian troops stormed ashore at Kiska. 21 troops were killed in the fire-fight. It would have been worse if there had been Japanese on the island.

The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in midair (they also sometimes cleared minefields by marching over them). “It takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Red Army”. - Joseph Stalin

When the US Army landed in North Africa, among the equipment brought ashore were 3 complete Coca Cola bottling plants.

Among the first “Germans” captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were capture by the US Army.

One of Japan’s methods of destroying tanks was to bury a very large artillery shell with on ly the nose exposed. When a tank came near the enough a soldier would whack the shell with a hammer. “Lack of weapons is no excuse for defeat.” – Lt. Gen. Mataguchi

The only nation that Germany declared war on was the USA.

Nuclear physicist Niels Bohr was rescued in the nick of time from German occupied Denmark. While Danish resistance fighters provided covering fire he ran out the back door of his home stopping momentarily to grab a beer bottle full of precious “heavy water”. He finally reached England still clutching the bottle, which contained beer. Perhaps some German drank the heavy water…

[Qwert]

In relation to the first part, there were actual US forces in China providing air support and performing numerous hit and run operations. I believe they were called the Tiger Pilots, or along those lines. They fought the Japanese quite a bit and took quite a few casualties in the process. So don't you DARE say the US didn't help the Chinese.

Yes they help,but 12 days after Attack on pearl harbour-so Chinese fight with Japanes from 1937-1941 without any help of US army,and these whas mercenary not regular US army,they become regular 1942. And i must say that these is small help(90 aircraft)

Well you never belive what i find:Betwen 1920-1937 Chinese have military cooperation with Germany,and they send MIlitary advisor to training Chinese army.About 80000 soldiers trained to German standard.
Alexander Ernst Alfred Hermann von Falkenhausen whas German General and Chiang Kai-Shek's military advisor.

Von Falkenhausen recommended that Chiang fight a war of attrition with Japan as Falkenhausen calculated that Japan could never hope to win a long term war. He suggested that Chiang should hold the Yellow River line, but not attack north of that until much later in the war. Also Chiang should be prepared to give up a number of regions in northern China, including Shandong, but the retreats must be made slowly; Japan was to pay for every advance it made. He also recommended a number of fortifications to be constructed, near mining areas, coastal, river locations, and so on. Falkenhausen also advised the Chinese to establish a number of guerrilla operations (which the Communists were adept at) behind Japanese lines. These efforts would help to weaken an already militarily challenged Japan.

The Sino-American Special Technical Cooperative Organization Treaty, also known as the Sino-American Cooperative Organization (SACO), was an agreement signed by the Republic of China and the United States of America in 1942 during the Second World War. It established a mutual intelligence gathering entity in China between the respective nations against Japan. It also served as joint training program between the two nations.

[Jenos Ridan]

Very nice speach, but German Blitzkrieg every time work only in short Battles, everytime when Battle not finish quickly(one month)German not have reserve unit to cover loses. You can have SuperTanks, but without Man to drive these, you will loose War.

Short, fast battles is the idea; Blitzkrieg is a doctrine of rapid movement. Hit'um hard, hit'um fast, hit'um often, so said Admiral Halsey. A historical example of maneuver defeating superior numbers is the Battle of Cannae.

Examle for these is Battle for Moscow-German not have soldiers to Capture a Capital, and these whas after 4 monts of start Barbarosa operation. If you say that German Army was superior against Soviet, how come that all bigest operation of Wermacht whas Disaster after Barbarosa operation-(Stalingrad Battle start of operation 1942-Leningrad start of operation 1941-Kursk Battle 1943 Moscow Battle 1941). All these battles start before any US involvment.

The mistake was to engage in sieges with Russian cities during the winter. Much is made of Stalin's "Scorched Earth" policy of razing Russian Farms and other property as the Russian retreated, but that would have cost them massively without the aid they received after Pearl Harbor.

Further, care to tell us how many Russians died in a ratio to German losses? I seem to recall many tells about that, such as heaps of Russian dead being used as cover for German troops.

[Juan_Bottom]

Yes they help,but 12 days after Attack on pearl harbour-so Chinese fight with Japanes from 1937-1941 without any help of US army,and these whas mercenary not regular US army,they become regular 1942. And i must say that these is small help(90 aircraft)

I wouldn't call them mercenaries. They were volunteers, heroes. Mercenaries won't fight if they have little hope of survival. And these few out-dated planes kept the Japs from have full air supremecy. The Chinese just weren't prepared for the role of the plane. America was in China before Pearl Harbor. Just like the 808th was in England before Pearl Harbor.

Well you never belive what i find:Betwen 1920-1937 Chinese have military cooperation with Germany,and they send MIlitary advisor to training Chinese army.About 80000 soldiers trained to German standard.
Alexander Ernst Alfred Hermann von Falkenhausen whas German General and Chiang Kai-Shek's military advisor.

There was no love lost between the Japs and Germans. And indeed, the Germans thought of the Japanese as an inferior people. But, that isn't to say that they would aid their mutual enemies against the other. I think both sides understood the idea of mutually assured destruction. If one fell, the other would certainly follow.

Otherwise, cool find.

[LYR]

The Russians destroyed over 500 German aircraft by ramming them in midair (they also sometimes cleared minefields by marching over them). “It takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Red Army”. - Joseph Stalin

No matter, the Russians did what they had to do. They outnumbered the Germans (hardly). They needed to win. They knew they were poorly trained. Stalin's great purge left Russia with almost no experienced officers. Ramming planes in mid-air is not stupid. It is a tactical manuver. It was not the best move, but it at least made sure that with each Soviet plane that went down, a German one went down with it.

Mother Russia never surrenders. Even with the German advance, Stalin called on partisan groups to destroy bridges and distrupt German troop movement. Not that they would have lost (they didn't).

Also, as said before, In this theoretical version of WWII, I am including the U.S. lend-lease program.

[Qwert]

America was in China before Pearl Harbor.

Can you bee more precise.I know that Germans whas present almost to years 1941-when last Advisors left China.
Like i say previous German have military cooperation with China from 1920-1938(to be precise).Also Soviet union have Agreement with china(September 1937 the Soviet leadership signed Sino-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, began aiding China and approved Operation Zet, a Soviet volunteer air force. As part of the secret operation Soviet technicians upgraded and handled some of the Chinese war-supply transport. Bombers, fighters, military supplies and advisors arrived, including future Soviet war hero Georgy Zhukov, who won the Battle of Halhin Gol. the Soviet Union provided the largest amount of foreign aid to China, totalling some $250 million of credits in munitions and supplies. In 1941 Soviet aid ended as a result of the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact).Soviet volunteer Air forces(500 aircraft) fight in china 1937-1941.
If you look all these,then its normal that US come after Pearl Harbour(flying Tigers),and not before that.
Ironicaly US had been the biggest steel exporter to Japan for these period,so US in some way helping Japanese MIlitary INdustry.

[Juan_Bottom]

America was in China before Pearl Harbor.

Can you bee more precise.I know that Germans whas present almost to years 1941-when last Advisors left China.
Like i say previous German have military cooperation with China from 1920-1938(to be precise).Also Soviet union have Agreement with china(September 1937 the Soviet leadership signed Sino-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, began aiding China and approved Operation Zet, a Soviet volunteer air force. As part of the secret operation Soviet technicians upgraded and handled some of the Chinese war-supply transport. Bombers, fighters, military supplies and advisors arrived, including future Soviet war hero Georgy Zhukov, who won the Battle of Halhin Gol. the Soviet Union provided the largest amount of foreign aid to China, totalling some $250 million of credits in munitions and supplies. In 1941 Soviet aid ended as a result of the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact).Soviet volunteer Air forces(500 aircraft) fight in china 1937-1941.
If you look all these,then its normal that US come after Pearl Harbour(flying Tigers),and not before that.
Ironicaly US had been the biggest steel exporter to Japan for these period,so US in some way helping Japanese MIlitary INdustry.

Why certainly my good fellow.

"Chiang's army received $250 million worth of tanks, trucks, and aircraft from the Soviet Union in 1938, plus some British and French military supplies. Nevertheless, by the summer of 1939 Japan controlled most of northeastern China and all major coastal seaports, except for the British Crown Colony at Hong Kong. In short, China was isolated except for supplies moving from the west along the so-called Burma Road or through French Indochina.

Joining in widespread international condemnation of Japan's aggression, the United States circumspectly supported China. President Roosevelt approved $25 million in military aid to China on 19 December 1940, permitting the Chinese to purchase one hundred P 40 pursuit aircraft. By late spring 1941, the United States had also earmarked over $145 million in lend-lease funds for China to acquire both ground and air equipment. In May 1941, Secretary of War Henry Stimson approved a Chinese request for sufficient equipment to outfit thirty infantry divisions, intended for delivery by mid- 1942. Prompted by his private adviser, Claire L. Chennault, a retired U.S. Army Air Corps officer, Chiang also obtained Roosevelt's support for an American Volunteer Group (AVG) of about one hundred U.S. civilian volunteers to fly the one hundred recently purchased P-40s. These "Flying Tigers" began arriving in Burma in late 1941, the first Americans actually to be fighting alongside the Chinese.

Having responded to disparate Chinese requests for specific arms, General Marshall moved quickly to ensure tighter coordination between Chinese requirements and U.S. production plans. He established the American Military Mission to China (AMMISCA) on 3 July 1941 under Brig. Gen. John Magruder, an officer with previous China experience. Rather than simply serve as a conduit for Nationalist requests for supplies, Marshall directed Magruder to advise the Chinese on their military needs and ensure a closer match between those needs and the capabilities of U.S. defense production."

http://www.history.army.mil/brochures/72-38/72-38.html

The Flying Tigers were in China by the summer of '41, though they didn't see any combat untill just after Pearl Harbor. But at that point they were no longer U.S. pilots, they were just volunteers. But what is relevant is that of more than 50 air battles, they never lost a single one. And they were using out-dated aircraft.

[Qwert]

You only confirm what i say,that US support before Pearl Harbour been much smaller then help from Soviet union.

[Juan_Bottom]

You only confirm what i say,that US support before Pearl Harbour been much smaller then help from Soviet union.

I didn't say that it wasn't.

[GeneralMatt]

This is ludicrous. Hitler was winning the blockade of Great Briton. He didn't have to win any battles against them, just starve them into peace terms. And without the U.S., he would have.
So Hitler didn't have to win any decisive battles against either side. All he had to do was wait for peace terms, and then go full tilt against the Soviets.
And let's not fully assume that Japan would just ignore her allies being utterly defeated. And again without the U.S., Japan would have beaten China. Freeing her up to help her allies.

I am surprised no one has addressed this issue, which is totally misleading. I am surprised you never heard of the battle of the Atlantic.
Yes, at times the U-Boat fleets had the upper hand, at other times we in our corvettes did.
In this battle we sunk 783 German submarines of the 1150, most of these, 525 of them, by Commonwealth forces. Add to this 69 Italian ones.
Canada alone sent "90,000,000 bushels of wheat, 4,500,000 barrels of flour, 5,249,000 hundredweight of bacon and ham, 7,661,000 pounds of dried eggs, 4,375,000 pounds of eggs in the shell, and enormous quantities of cheese, canned meats, caned herrings, canned salmon, fish oil and other goods too large and numerous to mention. That was just for the year 1942-with three more years to go.
On the production front, the totals were staggering. In 1939 Canada had no war industry. By war's end, 1,100,000 men and women-about one tenth of the total population- working in war plants that had turned out 900,000 rifles, 794,000 motor vehicles for military purposes, 244,000 light machine guns, 16,000 aircraft of nearly 80 different types and 486 naval vessels plus 391 cargo vessels and 3,500 craft for various support purposes, all necessary for the war effort.
In 1939 probably only a few Canadians had ever seen a tank; but by 1945 the nation had produced 6,500 which, it could be pointed out, equaled 13 months of tank production from Germany, one of the mightiest industrial war machines the world has ever seen."
Of the nearly 500 warships, that was from 6 old destroyers at the start of the war to the 480 plus anti submarine ships, nearly 100,000 men. The Army had 700,000, the army we had at the start had "29 Brens.. 23 anti tank rifles... and five three inch mortars."
23,000 died.
The RCAF at the start had 4000 men, no planes. 250,000 by wars end, 48 airplane squadrons, we trained 130,000 in the Commonwealth training programme.*

Yes, this is Canada were talking about, little old Canada. This is not even stats from India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, much less Great Britain herself!
To those who think we were almost dead, please reconsider.

Up until D-Day, the Commonwealth had more Divisions on every individual front, that includes the Far East, than the United States. Sorry, that is incorrect. On the Eastern front, in the middle of 1944 we had 16 Divisions, you had 17.
We lost 11,357,000 gross tons of material on route to the United Kingdom, 54 percent.
The United States lost 3,334,000, or 16 Percent..

All this is not to say the United States was not vital, but we all played our part, and while we could not have pushed back into Europe without American help most likely, neither do I think they could have taken on the Nazi Menace on their own.


*Six war years, Barry Broadfoot