The Holocaust

[b.k. barunt]

For cerealsultn: Actually there were Israelis and Palestinians living there before Britain stepped in. The Israelis were a minority then, and frequently attacked and persecuted by the Palestinians. The land didn't "belong" to the Palestinians any more than the Israelis. "War crimes"? Many more of them on the Palestinian side genius. You obviously haven't studied the history and are simply repeating what you've heard from God knows who. Big surprise.


Honibaz

[HapSmo19]

yes those goddamn palestinians, how dare they not step aside and let the israelis take their land and commit war crimes against them with impunity

Speaking of batshit insane.....

[b.k. barunt]

I agree that Israel has not sought the extinction of any group of people based on faith or race. I reject the notion that the Palestinians started the conflict with Israel. The mass immigration of Jewish people into the region in the early 20th century certainly was the cause of much conflict, and when Israel became a country in 1947 it massacred and threatened all those who opposed having their houses taken away from them. I also note that there are clear distinctions between the Palestinian people and those of other surrounding nations. The countries around Israel certainly did (foolishly) start a war with Israel that they lost. The people living in Palestine and Israel at the time did not start that war and cannot be blamed for it.

Maybe you could like read a little history before you simply repeat what you've heard somewhere. Israel "massacred and threatened all those that opposed having their houses taken away from them". Amazing. Fooking amazing. Are you and cerealsultan pen pals or something? The Palestinians STARTED the conflicts. This isn't an opinion, but a matter of historical record. You really need to read some history here.


Honibaz

[owheelj]

I think there have very clearly been terrible war crimes committed by both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I don't understand your usage of the word "Israelis." There were no Israelis or country called Israel until 1947. Jewish people who lived in the region lived in relative peace until the movement to create a specific Jewish state began in the early 1880s. The sudden mass immigration of Jews from Israel inevitably led to conflict in the region.

[owheelj]

I agree that Israel has not sought the extinction of any group of people based on faith or race. I reject the notion that the Palestinians started the conflict with Israel. The mass immigration of Jewish people into the region in the early 20th century certainly was the cause of much conflict, and when Israel became a country in 1947 it massacred and threatened all those who opposed having their houses taken away from them. I also note that there are clear distinctions between the Palestinian people and those of other surrounding nations. The countries around Israel certainly did (foolishly) start a war with Israel that they lost. The people living in Palestine and Israel at the time did not start that war and cannot be blamed for it.

Maybe you could like read a little history before you simply repeat what you've heard somewhere. Israel "massacred and threatened all those that opposed having their houses taken away from them". Amazing. Fooking amazing. Are you and cerealsultan pen pals or something? The Palestinians STARTED the conflicts. This isn't an opinion, but a matter of historical record. You really need to read some history here.


Honibaz

Well I'm just past page 1000 in Robert Fisk's The Great War For Civilisation; The Conquest of the Middle East. You're confusing the Palestinians with all Arabs and you're confusing conflicts.

When the UN announced the 1947 partition of Palestine it is an accepted fact that Israel launched a violent campaign in the region, which led to 750,000 Palestinians fleeing the area, and thousands were killed. Shortly after this the neighbouring countries declared war on Israel. Israel started the conflict with the Palestinians, and the surrounding nations started their separate war with Israel.

[captain.crazy]

I agree. You don't fight Nazism with Nazism.


Honibaz

"Among the Indians there have been no written laws. Customs handed down from generation to generation have been the only laws to guide them. Every one might act different from what was considered right did he choose to do so, but such acts would bring upon him the censure of the Nation... This fear of the Nation's censure acted as a mighty band, binding all in one social, honorable compact. Cheif Pontiac "
-- Tecumseh, Chief of the Shawnee tribe

[LYR]

defeating someone in a war they started

yes those goddamn palestinians, how dare they not step aside and let the israelis take their land and commit war crimes against them with impunity

Commit war crimes? If Israel has committed war crimes, then almost every government in the world is guilty of war crimes (which they are). So....

#1: Why should Israel be persecuted when other countries are not?

#2: Israel is the most humane army in the world. It is one of only two countries to have their army abide by a code of ethics.

http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/about/d ... ethics.htm

I have talked with numerous ex-Israeli soldiers who have told stories about abandoning missions to preserve NON-ISRAELI human life.

Do you know why Israel sent ground troops into Gaza several months ago? They could have completely demolished Gaza with superior air power, but they send in ground troops because air strikes are not always completely accurate. They sent in troops so they could preserve the lives of civilians who probably want to kill them.

What was that story in Iraq, about the U.S. flattening several square blocks of some Iraqi city (probably Baghdad, but I am not sure) just so they could kill Hussein, just to learn that he had already left the area?

This is of course not to mention all the things Palestinians have done to Israeli soldiers, civilians, etc. If you could give me one war that Israel fought in where they were they were not provoked, then you would be correct in your assumptions that Israel has committed "war crimes." Otherwise, lay off. Israel has enough problems already without being accused of committing war crimes.

[LYR]

The mass immigration of Jewish people into the region in the early 20th century certainly was the cause of much conflict, and when Israel became a country in 1947

#1: 1948, not 1947.

it massacred and threatened all those who opposed having their houses taken away from them.

#2: ???????????

The countries around Israel certainly did (foolishly) start a war with Israel that they lost.

Not foolishly, they should have won.

[owheelj]

I can't think of many countries that have been filmed deliberately firing armour piercing missiles at ambulances that have not been tried for war crimes. Indeed even if Israel's excuse at the time was correct (that as well as having women and children on board, it also had a militant - who apparently managed to disappear leaving only the dead bodies of the women and children - filmed by Reuters as it happened), it's still a war crime to knowingly target civilians even if you know they are with non-civilians.

As I said before, both sides have committed war crimes, both sides are immoral and should not be supported. Neither side has policies that will ever bring about peace and both sides are committing their people to living in fear and being needlessly slaughtered.

[b.k. barunt]

I think there have very clearly been terrible war crimes committed by both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

I don't understand your usage of the word "Israelis." There were no Israelis or country called Israel until 1947. Jewish people who lived in the region lived in relative peace until the movement to create a specific Jewish state began in the early 1880s. The sudden mass immigration of Jews from Israel inevitably led to conflict in the region.

My use of the word "Israelis" comes from those living in "Israel". Those who call it "Israel" are "Israelis" and those who call it "Palestine" are "Palestinians.

There was no "sudden" mass immigration of Jews in 1880. That didn't come til post WWII. From 1880 until 1948 the Palestinians were the majority there, and if you peruse a couple history books you'll see that they were relentless in their persecution of the Jews.

Any Islamic country will attempt to oust non-muslims. You can't hold citizenship in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. if you are not a muslim. It is a repressive, violent religion and tolerates no debate. The Jews attempted to live peacefully with the Palestinians, in spite of continuous persecution, until after WWII, when they finally had enough numbers to fight back.

Your arguments sound like you picked them out of a muslim's comic book, and have no basis whatsoever in historical fact.


Honibaz

[LYR]

As I said before, both sides have committed war crimes, both sides are immoral and should not be supported. Neither side has policies that will ever bring about peace and both sides are committing their people to living in fear and being needlessly slaughtered.

Israeli policy... live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you.

Palestinian policy... attack Israel with rockets, then claim Israel is being belligerent.

[SultanOfSurreal]

"War crimes"? Many more of them on the Palestinian side genius. You obviously haven't studied the history and are simply repeating what you've heard from God knows who. Big surprise.

Speaking of batshit insane.....

this is all from the first page of a google search that took me two seconds btw

[owheelj]

#1: 1948, not 1947.

My mistake. Sorry.

it massacred and threatened all those who opposed having their houses taken away from them.

#2: ???????????

Fairly well documented. I'm sure you can provide more reliable sources than this if you look;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_a ... estine_War

The countries around Israel certainly did (foolishly) start a war with Israel that they lost.

Not foolishly, they should have won.

[/quote]

I don't know about that, but in any case I would argue that starting wars is usually foolish.

There was no "sudden" mass immigration of Jews in 1880.

Again apologies for the wikipedia source, but it is fairly well documented and no doubt 20 seconds of google searching will bring up more reliable sources;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zio ... sh_Mandate

The first large wave of modern immigration, known as the First Aliyah (Hebrew: עלייה), began in 1881, as Jews fled pogroms in Eastern Europe.

The Second Aliyah (1904–1914), began after the Kishinev pogrom. Some 40, 000 Jews settled in Palestine.

The third (1919–1923) and Fourth Aliyah (1924–1929) brought 100, 000 Jews to Palestine.

The rise of Nazism in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews. This caused the Arab revolt of 1936–1939 and led the British to cap immigration with the White Paper of 1939. With countries around the world turning away Jewish refugees fleeing the Holocaust, a clandestine movement known as Aliyah Bet was organized to bring Jews to Palestine.[40] By the end of World War II, Jews accounted for 33% of the population of Palestine, up from 11% in 1922.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Israeli policy... live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you.

Palestinian policy... attack Israel with rockets, then claim Israel is being belligerent.

you are the worst most ignorant scum imaginable

hope this helps

[owheelj]

As I said before, both sides have committed war crimes, both sides are immoral and should not be supported. Neither side has policies that will ever bring about peace and both sides are committing their people to living in fear and being needlessly slaughtered.

Israeli policy... live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you.

Palestinian policy... attack Israel with rockets, then claim Israel is being belligerent.

I agree with your summary of the Palestinians policy. I would rewrite the Israeli policy like this;


Live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you, except for continuing to allow radicals to build settlements on your land and steal it from you. If your radical militants attack us, we will crush them resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians. We will destroy your infrastructure improvrishing your country and close all your borders, refusing entry to even foreign aid workers if you do so much as kidnap a single soldier of ours. We will kidnap and torture anybody we suspect of being a militant opposed to us without trial. Many of these people will disappear forever. We will accidentally shoot dead children who throw stones at our tanks.

[LYR]

Israeli policy... live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you.

Palestinian policy... attack Israel with rockets, then claim Israel is being belligerent.

you are the worst most ignorant scum imaginable

hope this helps

Helps alot, thanks.

Go to Israel. See for yourself. Albeit, I should not be talking, for my first visit to Israel will be this summer, but I have talked with enough Israelis, Israeli soldiers, and have enough family living in Israel to tell you that Israelis do not want to attack Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims/Whatever.

Maybe I was a blunt with my statement, but I stand by it. I am not saying that every Israeli is pure and wants peace, and I am not saying that every Palestinian wants to kill every Israeli, there are always exceptions to the rule. However, that there are most definitely a higher percentage of Palestinians who want Israel eradicated than the other way around.

[SultanOfSurreal]

However, that there are most definitely a higher percentage of Palestinians who want Israel eradicated than the other way around.

well gee i wonder why a group of people systematically displaced, subjugated, and murdered by an occupying force would want that force gone

it is a mystery, unknowable to anyone

[LYR]

As I said before, both sides have committed war crimes, both sides are immoral and should not be supported. Neither side has policies that will ever bring about peace and both sides are committing their people to living in fear and being needlessly slaughtered.

Israeli policy... live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you.

Palestinian policy... attack Israel with rockets, then claim Israel is being belligerent.

I agree with your summary of the Palestinians policy. I would rewrite the Israeli policy like this;


Live in peace. You do not touch us, we do not touch you, except for continuing to allow radicals to build settlements on your land and steal it from you. If your radical militants attack us, we will crush them resulting in the deaths of many innocent civilians. We will destroy your infrastructure improvrishing your country and close all your borders, refusing entry to even foreign aid workers if you do so much as kidnap a single soldier of ours. We will kidnap and torture anybody we suspect of being a militant opposed to us without trial. Many of these people will disappear forever. We will accidentally shoot dead children who throw stones at our tanks.

I cannot explain to you how Israelis feel about this. You would have to experience it for yourself. All I can tell you is that when once soldier is captured, the entire country weeps. As for the last three sentences, if you could provide links that would be great. I have definitely heard about that last accusation, but I need to see those newspaper articles for myself.

[LYR]

However, that there are most definitely a higher percentage of Palestinians who want Israel eradicated than the other way around.

well gee i wonder why a group of people systematically displaced, subjugated, and murdered by an occupying force would want that force gone

it is a mystery, unknowable to anyone

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs. Of course, that is a whole different discussion, it is 2:00 in the morning here, and I have to write a damn essay, so I will not argue with you, although I would like to do so.

[SultanOfSurreal]

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs.

oh shit, someone should have told me this

that makes everything ok

All I can tell you is that when once soldier is captured, the entire country weeps.

BOOOOO HOOOOOO ;_____;

[LYR]

All I can tell you is that when once soldier is captured, the entire country weeps.

BOOOOO HOOOOOO ;_____;

Go ahead, be an insensitive prick. I know the U.S. does not care so much, but Israel actually does something when its soldiers are captured.

[Skittles!]

However, that there are most definitely a higher percentage of Palestinians who want Israel eradicated than the other way around.

well gee i wonder why a group of people systematically displaced, subjugated, and murdered by an occupying force would want that force gone

it is a mystery, unknowable to anyone

You must remember that Israelis believe that the land is theirs. Of course, that is a whole different discussion..

.. And the land is also Palestinians. Islam and Judaism are both Abrahamic religions, and the excuse the Israelis use for having the land is the same excuse the Palestinians can use. That excuse does not allow murder of innocents and illegal settlements.

All I can tell you is that when once soldier is captured, the entire country weeps.

And no other country does that in the whole world. The Palestinians don't weep when some of their children, women and men are killed. No, they are heartless monsters.

[LYR]

.. And the land is also Palestinians. Islam and Judaism are both Abrahamic religions, and the excuse the Israelis use for having the land is the same excuse the Palestinians can use. That excuse does not allow murder of innocents and illegal settlements.

I know that, I am just telling him the excuse, in case he did not know. Not saying it is justifiable, not saying that it is not. Just saying.

And no other country does that in the whole world. The Palestinians don't weep when some of their children, women and men are killed. No, they are heartless monsters.

Good job twisting my words. All I said was that an entire nation weeps when a single soldier is captured. That is unity. I am not comparing it to other nations.

[owheelj]

I cannot explain to you how Israelis feel about this. You would have to experience it for yourself. All I can tell you is that when once soldier is captured, the entire country weeps. As for the last three sentences, if you could provide links that would be great. I have definitely heard about that last accusation, but I need to see those newspaper articles for myself.

Sure, but doesn't mean their response is justified, or in line with international law.


This is a fairly detailed report;

http://thereport.amnesty.org/en/regions ... erritories

Some "highlights;"

On 16 April, Israeli forces killed 15 Palestinian civilians, including 10 children aged between 13 and 17 and a journalist, in three separate attacks, which also injured dozens of other civilians, in the Jouhr al-Dik area in the south-east of the Gaza Strip. First, Israeli tank fire killed six children – ‘Abdullah Maher Abu Khalil, Tareq Farid Abu Taqiyah, Islam Hussam al-‘Issawi, Talha Hani Abu ‘Ali, Bayan Sameer al-Khaldi and Mohammed al-‘Assar. Then, Israeli soldiers in a tank fired a flechette shell at Fadel Shana’, a Reuters cameraman, killing him, as he was filming the tank. A further tank shell fired immediately after killed two more children, Ahmad ‘Aref Frajallah and Ghassan Khaled Abu ‘Ateiwi, and injured five others. Two of them, Ahmad 'Abd al-Majid al-Najjar and Bilal Sa'id 'Ali al-Dhini, died three days later.

I think this is an instance of killing children throwing rocks at a tank, although I was referring to a different instance.

They included some 300 children and 550 people who were held without charge or trial under military administrative detention orders, including some who had been held for up to six years.

Mohammed Khawajah, aged 12, was arrested by Israeli soldiers at his home in Ni’lin village at 3am on 11 September. He was beaten and detained with adults in an army detention camp until 15 September, when he was released on bail. He was charged with throwing stones at soldiers and sent for trial before a military court.

Almost all Palestinian detainees were held in prisons in Israel in violation of international humanitarian law, which prohibits the removal of detainees to the territory of the occupying power. This made it difficult or impossible in practice for detainees to receive family visits.

etc.

Of course please note that my attack on Israel is not support for Palestine or the behaviour of Palestinians. They're behaviour, or at least the behaviour of their militants, to quote Robert Fisk, is "unforgivable." That doesn't mean Israel's behaviour is any better.

[LYR]

If this conversation is still going on tomorrow, I will probably end up jumping in, but I seriously have to finish this essay and go to sleep. Sorry man, I would if I could, but I can't.