Conquer Club

Communism and Fascism

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:04 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Exactly what capitalism are you talking about, tgd?

Capitalism without any restraints? Capitalism with some restraints? Heavily regulated capitalism?

Or something completely different?

Capitalism with some restraints.

You dirty socialist!

At least in the eyes of the "true conservatives".


It did pain me to write that. But a vast majority of people have a major problem practicing personal responsibility; so a truly capitalist system probably wouldn't work.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby MeDeFe on Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:52 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
MeDeFe wrote:Exactly what capitalism are you talking about, tgd?

Capitalism without any restraints? Capitalism with some restraints? Heavily regulated capitalism?

Or something completely different?

Capitalism with some restraints.

You dirty socialist!

At least in the eyes of the "true conservatives".

It did pain me to write that. But a vast majority of people have a major problem practicing personal responsibility; so a truly capitalist system probably wouldn't work.

Especially since anything resembling personal responsibility appears not to be an option once large enough amounts of money are involved.
saxitoxin wrote:Your position is more complex than the federal tax code. As soon as I think I understand it, I find another index of cross-references, exceptions and amendments I have to apply.
Timminz wrote:Yo mama is so classless, she could be a Marxist utopia.
User avatar
Major MeDeFe
 
Posts: 7831
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:48 am
Location: Follow the trail of holes in other people's arguments.

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby PLAYER57832 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:59 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:It did pain me to write that. But a vast majority of people have a major problem practicing personal responsibility; so a truly capitalist system probably wouldn't work.

Especially since anything resembling personal responsibility appears not to be an option once large enough amounts of money are involved.

Especially because individual responsibility is not the same as corporate responsibility (easier to do wrong when you don't have to face the one your doing it to).

Also, to be responsible, you have to know. That is hard sometimes for individuals, but can be even harder in a corporation where the mandate of making money is often at odds with learning about the true consequences of decisions. Not always, but often.

No one sets out in the morning saying "hey, I am going to poison 100 babies today". Instead, they say "eh... it won't hurt if I put just a little of this in ..." Money makes some people incredibly blind. And, then, in many cases, we truly don't know. I heard an ecologist mother saying that as an ecologist, she fully understood the need to KNOW, to fully explore risks/threats before asserting that this or that was dangerous. However, as a mother... she did not need 100% certainty. As a mother "this is likely harmful" is enough to say "no". When you realize that 20 years is often too short a time to really know the effects of chemicals on people.....
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:52 am

In order for corporations to be responsible, their owners (i.e. shareholders) must be responsible; therefore, I think it remains personal responsibility. For example, if I was a shareholder in a company that was revealed to poison babies, I'd sell my shares (among other things), showing my distaste for the practice. There are other ways for a person to voice dischord for a company. For example, I do not shop at Walmart. That likely has no effect. However, if a lot of people stopped shopping at Walmart, it would have a great effect (or stopped buying stock in tobacco companies, or stopped purchasing cars from a company that made gasoline inefficient vehicles). Unfortunately, I believe people in the United States have gotten so lazy and uncaring that they won't actually do these sorts of things; instead, they whine about these companies and want the government to take care of it, which in and of itself is wrong, personal responsibility being a primary value in my mind. Additionally, the government's not going to hurt a company that gives it tons of money in the form of campaign contributions, so the people who rely on the government are relying on the wrong entity. Again, we're back to personal responsibility.

Sorry for the rambling.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:01 am

thegreekdog wrote:In order for corporations to be responsible, their owners (i.e. shareholders) must be responsible; therefore, I think it remains personal responsibility. For example, if I was a shareholder in a company that was revealed to poison babies, I'd sell my shares (among other things), showing my distaste for the practice. There are other ways for a person to voice dischord for a company. For example, I do not shop at Walmart. That likely has no effect. However, if a lot of people stopped shopping at Walmart, it would have a great effect (or stopped buying stock in tobacco companies, or stopped purchasing cars from a company that made gasoline inefficient vehicles). Unfortunately, I believe people in the United States have gotten so lazy and uncaring that they won't actually do these sorts of things; instead, they whine about these companies and want the government to take care of it, which in and of itself is wrong, personal responsibility being a primary value in my mind. Additionally, the government's not going to hurt a company that gives it tons of money in the form of campaign contributions, so the people who rely on the government are relying on the wrong entity. Again, we're back to personal responsibility.

Sorry for the rambling.

Not rambling, good points.

The problem is that right now, even WITH all the required transparency, finding out those details takes time. And, with families, work, etc. finding the time requires impetus. It is far easier just to "let someone else worry about it" OR, to pick one news source that seems to have ideas like yours and basically follow. Add in a clergy or even someone you look to as a "spiritual leader", whether your clergyperson or not .. and you have a lot of ignorance making pretty important decisions.

As for the government.. the thing is that while Walmart is Walmart, the government now is NOT the government of just 1 year ago. Long term in a corporation is roughly 5 years. "Long term" politically is 2. Also, while your not buying and my not buying from Walmart (except when I really and truly do not have an option.. not often, but occasionally) doesn't matter that much because, (at least in my case), I never bought that much anyway, my vote is equal to anyone else's vote., in the polls.

I also think, when it comes to purchasing choices, part of the problem is that we often don't really have a free and open choice. Monopolies were outlawed, in part, because Rockafeller gave Kerosene away until he drove competitors out of business. Even knowing the result, it would have been hard to resist taking that kerosene if it made the difference between being sure you had enough fuel and food and worrying if you would. Crayons for 25 cents are pretty tempting when you have kids. A friend of mine flat out tells me that if she did not shop at Walmart, she could not buy the mangoes and such her kids like (lots of issues there, but I don't want to get off in a tangent). More ironically, the wife of my husband's former boss bragged about shopping at Walmart almost exclusively. Yet, then in almost the next breath she would complain about contracts being shipped down south, etc. In a not-so-ironic twist, my neighbor went on welfare, but still insisted her kids had to have new clothes, etc. Yet, my husband's former boss's wife went to the same garage sales I did much of the time. (though she was kind enough to pass by cloths that fit my son, even though he was the same size as hers-- if I was there when she was)
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:12 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem is that right now, even WITH all the required transparency, finding out those details takes time. And, with families, work, etc. finding the time requires impetus. It is far easier just to "let someone else worry about it" OR, to pick one news source that seems to have ideas like yours and basically follow. Add in a clergy or even someone you look to as a "spiritual leader", whether your clergyperson or not .. and you have a lot of ignorance making pretty important decisions.


I think whether one has time is dependent on whether one wants to make the time. I find the time to be fairly knowledgeable about issues I care about and I try to practice what I preach. On the other hand, I've known many a college student back in my own college days who preached a lot of rhetoric about saving the world from evil corporations, but then went over to Steve Madden shoes or to Walmart to buy their shit, and who refused to tutor poor middle school kids, and who felt like drinking beer every night was a better way to spend their money than helping out the poor. Therefore, I'm fairly cynical when it comes to people wanting to change the world, but doing it be rabble rousing on the Internet or complaining to their politicians.

PLAYER57832 wrote:my vote is equal to anyone else's vote., in the polls.


Except when the person you vote for doesn't actually do what you want them to do. Again, probably a symptom of the two party system and campaign contributions, but it remains that if you vote Republican or Democrat you're pretty much going to get similar results.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class thegreekdog
 
Posts: 7246
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Communism and Fascism

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:51 am

thegreekdog wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:The problem is that right now, even WITH all the required transparency, finding out those details takes time. And, with families, work, etc. finding the time requires impetus. It is far easier just to "let someone else worry about it" OR, to pick one news source that seems to have ideas like yours and basically follow. Add in a clergy or even someone you look to as a "spiritual leader", whether your clergyperson or not .. and you have a lot of ignorance making pretty important decisions.


I think whether one has time is dependent on whether one wants to make the time. I find the time to be fairly knowledgeable about issues I care about and I try to practice what I preach. On the other hand, I've known many a college student back in my own college days who preached a lot of rhetoric about saving the world from evil corporations, but then went over to Steve Madden shoes or to Walmart to buy their shit, and who refused to tutor poor middle school kids, and who felt like drinking beer every night was a better way to spend their money than helping out the poor. Therefore, I'm fairly cynical when it comes to people wanting to change the world, but doing it be rabble rousing on the Internet or complaining to their politicians.


Being a hypocrite is not limited to any one political belief, that is an absolute fact. I have yet to find a PETA member who is not both a hypocrit and pretty ignorant of the real issues involved. On the other side, I find irony in folks (not you) who proclaim themselves to be Christian, but who support politics that will make the world a very uncaring and unChristian world, indeed.

I myself see this as entertainment with a little bit of education on the side once in a while. My choice of people to talk to is limited to those too young to engage in any real intelligent debate (we're working on it... ;) ) and a lot of folks who, well, consider going 100 miles to be a "big adventure". (I do exaggerate a little, but only a little) There are a few others more like myself, but not many. And, when its winter, and funds for gas are heavily limited, particularly.. it can be hard to get out.

On the real side, it can help me think a bit more about stuff before going out into the "real world". I have learned a lot about Creationists and how Creationists think here.

PLAYER57832 wrote:my vote is equal to anyone else's vote., in the polls.


Except when the person you vote for doesn't actually do what you want them to do. Again, probably a symptom of the two party system and campaign contributions, but it remains that if you vote Republican or Democrat you're pretty much going to get similar results.[/quote]
No one is a robot. Even if they were, politicians have to respond to all sorts of people, so they are never going to please everyone all the time. That is one reason why being able to vote people out, as well as in, becomes important.

One problem when someone like Obama is elected is that expectations have been set so high, anything short of pure miracles will make him look a failure. I think it was part of Carter's failure... and I see it happening to Obama, as well.
Corporal PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Previous

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users