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Cash for Clunkers

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Cash for Clunkers

Poll ended at Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:42 pm

 
Total votes : 0

Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:20 pm

Titanic wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:haha, gotchya. :D Yeah sorry not every part in every car is perfect. as you damn well know but have surely completely discounted in your "rational" thought, every car has 1 certain thing that is bad about it. I am laughing at you calling out the chevy truck on its transmission, nothing more! TA!


No car may be perfect, but when looking at the whole package American cars just dont measure up to cars from the Far East or Europe.

yeah, thats too bad (for us) When i was about 5 or 6 my grandpa always told me, when his lawnmower broke and he was fixing it and cussing at it, he'd say "You know grandson, American made stuff is more expensive and junk, see, the japanese, right here, they put a strong washer, with a bolt and a srping, and its all compartmentalized. America, the plastic shit!" I said "Well thanks for that I guess". Foreign made is all post WW2 "new world" economy, you guys over there are gonna produce, and over here were gonna consume, and we're gonna allow currency tinkering....
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby bedub1 on Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:48 am

I signed the following paperwork to buy my car with the program:

Lemon Law acknowledgment form
Agreement to furnish insurance policy on the car.
Another agreement to furnish insurance policy on the car....I'm not sure why I have 2
Vehicle Sellers report of the sale of the car to me
Document to the dealer stating there isn't any work to be done on the car at the time of sale, the car is in good shape.
Document confirming I want them to leave the security system activated
Condition of Financing statement confirming if the financing falls through, I have to give them the car back
Sales contract for purchase of the car via loan through dealership
Sales document defining price of car to be used in above price, including taxes, down payment etc
Title Document declaring the odometer on my new car is accurate and the car is transferred to me
Title Document declaring the odometer on my trade in car is accurate and the car is transferred to honda
Original Title from trade in car


I don't have copies of them, but I know I signed some documents related specifically to the cash for clunkers program....that provided "Power of Attorney" to the state or something...maybe the feds...for the release of my car...I also signed lots of other documents for the actual program by the government...their own paperwork not the preformed ones for POA.....

I just can't believe how much paperwork there is involved in this. I wonder if you could go in and buy a car with cash and not sign anything....
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:28 pm

The latest is if you bought a car under the program, the dealership can't provide you the title until they get the money from the government. Anyone else heard these stories? I would also like to point out how many of you have voted success, yet the government has NOT even done it's part yet. What's the deal with that?
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby AAFitz on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:51 pm

Phatscotty wrote:haha, gotchya. :D Yeah sorry not every part in every car is perfect. as you damn well know but have surely completely discounted in your "rational" thought, every car has 1 certain thing that is bad about it. I am laughing at you calling out the chevy truck on its transmission, nothing more! TA!


Well, Ive had 3 chevy trucks in the last 7 years or so. a 98, an 04 and an 06. At 70k those trannies are liquid mercury. Unless you spring for the allison transmission that is, though, Im not sure I should have to pay for 4 g's for a part that is rather essential to the vehicle itself.

As it turns out, I did love the trucks, and love the one I still have. With the abuse Ive given them, a ford or god forbid a dodge would have been dead long ago. Ironically though, as they got newer, they got worse. The 98 Z71 was the most solid truck I have ever been in. Granted it was fun, so maybe I was biased, but it was nearly as strong as the 2004 2500 HD I bought.

What bothered me about the chevy, is the thing overheated when I plowed. It had a semi-recall on the fan clutch, and the dealer never told me when it happened the first time. Once I found out, I had to go to them. And the 2006 had silly stuff breaking that I couldnt believe, but it was more of a work truck, and the 2004 was an LS, so it was better anyways.

Overall love the things, and laugh at dodges and most fords. But One of the companies I worked for had bought at least 50 chevys of different makes or models. He then switched to toyotas where he could. It was sad to see them, but you cant argue a good business decision.

Granted, I firmly believe that the oil companies have had an unusually strong influence over the automakers via Bush for 8 years. I believe they were purposely convinced, or persuaded to keep them sucking back the juice, and marketing the ones that did it the worst. I dont mean directly, just indirectly, here and there, starting with the crushing of the electric car, very early in Bush's presidency. Just tragic that greed, has cost everyone and this country so much.
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby AAFitz on Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:52 pm

Phatscotty wrote:The latest is if you bought a car under the program, the dealership can't provide you the title until they get the money from the government. Anyone else heard these stories? I would also like to point out how many of you have voted success, yet the government has NOT even done it's part yet. What's the deal with that?


Think of all the interest they are saving. :D Seems like you should be thanking them.
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:39 pm

AAFitz wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:The latest is if you bought a car under the program, the dealership can't provide you the title until they get the money from the government. Anyone else heard these stories? I would also like to point out how many of you have voted success, yet the government has NOT even done it's part yet. What's the deal with that?


Think of all the interest they are saving. :D Seems like you should be thanking them.

I dont see how your comment and the quote of mine you attached are related. This forum platform puts a lot of spaces left to be filled inbetween comments, even if they do follow each other directly

one additional note, I am reading more stories in my liberal newspaper business section about how ALL the Car companies are preparing for a sales "dead mans land". also, Kia and Hyundia both outsold Chrysler in the huge car sales month of august. also expect the ISM number Obama is pointing to as an economic recovery to dip back below again once this stimulus is gone.
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:22 pm

Ok, my little mindless trolls, who voted that cash for clunkers acutally did ANYTHING except set up another CRASH in the auto-makers!

U.S. Sept. Auto Sales Hit By Clunker Hangover

GM and Chrysler sales down a WHOPPING 48 and 42% respectively. Ford, which didn't take any poison money? 5% drop. HMM maybe it was a COMPLETE F'ing waste of money? Maybe GM and Chevy should have joined Ford in doing......OMG....nothing? HAHA you guys took a big ass bite of that shit sandwich....didnt ya....DIDNT YA?

http://www.rttnews.com/Content/TopStori ... %20Stories

1 MONTH later, please "successors" point out he shiny party of the success. how is that success progressing other success?
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby jonka on Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:25 am

Phatscotty wrote:
jsholty4690 wrote:It was a good idea, but they never gave it enough money to be completely effective. Which became obvious when they ran out of money in less than a week. I would have liked to have seen them put way more money into it, but its the government. I've learned to not expect too much from them.

So, a bigger giveaway would be a bigger success? Even if we have to borrow, at interest, from CHINA< the money to give away? Just asking

Whats China going to do about it? Anyways, a lot of that money we borrowed was so the rich wouldn't have to pay taxes, and we could fight two wars, not to stimulate the economy.
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Re: Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:59 pm

Interesting how much bullshit you guys bought into at the time, EH?
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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:03 am

istanbul39 wrote:lets see...

sold cars, created state tax revenue, created/preserved jobs, took non-efficient engines off the road

Yes, that is enough for me to identify as success

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Re: Phatscotty Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Titanic on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:Ok, my little mindless trolls, who voted that cash for clunkers acutally did ANYTHING except set up another CRASH in the auto-makers!

U.S. Sept. Auto Sales Hit By Clunker Hangover

GM and Chrysler sales down a WHOPPING 48 and 42% respectively. Ford, which didn't take any poison money? 5% drop. HMM maybe it was a COMPLETE F'ing waste of money? Maybe GM and Chevy should have joined Ford in doing......OMG....nothing? HAHA you guys took a big ass bite of that shit sandwich....didnt ya....DIDNT YA?

http://www.rttnews.com/Content/TopStori ... %20Stories

1 MONTH later, please "successors" point out he shiny party of the success. how is that success progressing other success?



The only reason they went down so much is because they went up so much last year because of the scheme. The scheme was never going to create a higher demand for a long period, it was created so that the car manufacturers would get a capital boost to keep them going and stop them going bankrupt, which it has done.
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Re: Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:47 pm

Govt watchdog criticizes handling of car dealers
By KEN THOMAS (AP)

WASHINGTON — The Treasury Department failed to consider the economic fallout when it told General Motors and Chrysler to quickly shutter many dealerships as part of government-led bankruptcies, a federal watchdog found.

A report released Sunday by the special inspector general for the government's bailout program raised questions about whether the Obama administration's auto task force considered the job losses from the closings while pressuring the companies to reduce costs.

Treasury didn't show why the cuts were "either necessary for the sake of the companies' economic survival or prudent for the sake of the nation's economic recovery," said the audit by Neil Barofsky, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, the $787 billion stimulus program known as TARP.

"Treasury made a series of decisions that may have substantially contributed to the accelerated shuttering of thousands of small businesses," investigators said.

Those decisions resulted in "potentially adding tens of thousands of workers to the already lengthy unemployment rolls — all based on a theory and without sufficient consideration of the decisions' broader economic impact," the report said.

Obama administration officials said they strongly disagreed with the findings and said the audit focused solely on one element of a painful restructuring. Without the shared sacrifices of workers, dealers, retirees, suppliers and creditors, they said, the companies may not have rebounded.

Herbert M. Allison Jr., Treasury's assistant secretary for financial stability, said the administration's actions "not only avoided a potentially catastrophic collapse and brought needed stability to the entire auto industry, but they also saved hundreds of thousands of American jobs and gave GM and Chrysler a chance to re-emerge as viable, competitive American businesses."

The audit also found that General Motors "did not consistently follow its stated criteria" for reducing its dealer network and noted that Chrysler failed to offer an appeals process.

The report, sought by lawmakers critical of the dealership closings, was seized upon by Republicans who have questioned the administration's dealings with private industry during the economic downturn.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., said the audit "should serve as a wake-up call as to the implications of politically orchestrated bailouts and how putting decisions about private enterprise in the hands of political appointees and bureaucrats can lead to costly and unintended consequences."

GM's initial plan submitted to the government in February 2009 called for the gradual reduction of 1,650 of its 5,750 dealers by the end of 2014. Chrysler pointed to plans to trim its network from 3,181 dealers to about 2,000 dealers by 2014.

After Treasury rejected those earlier plans, the two companies released accelerated efforts to cut their dealership ranks. Chrysler said it would quickly close 789 dealers by June 2009 and GM said it would slash its dealer ranks by 1,454 by October 2010.

Following a fierce lobbying campaign by car dealers, Congress approved legislation last year requiring arbitration for closed dealers. GM said it would reinstate more than 660 dealers it had threatened with closure, reducing the number of dealers planning to appeal. Chrysler also agreed to restore about 80 franchises.

In a statement, GM said the events described by the report "have since been overtaken by a new GM and a stronger dealer network to match. More than a year since bankruptcy, GM is showing substantial progress." Chrysler did not immediately comment on the report.
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Re: Poll on Cash for Clunkers

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:04 pm

Study says 'Cash for Clunkers' created few jobs


Washington — The nearly $3 billion “Cash for Clunkers” program approved by Congress in 2009 did little to boost the environment and created few jobs, a new study released Wednesday found.

A Brookings Institution study found the $2.85 billion program “provided a short-term boost in vehicle sales, which were pulled forward from sales that would have occurred in subsequent months. There was a small increase in employment but the implied cost per job created ($1.4 million) was far higher than other fiscal stimulus programs.”

The study — from researchers Ted Gayer and Emily Parker — said the “Car Allowance Rebate System,” or CARS did little to boost employment. This is at least the fourth major study since 2012 that has raised questions about the value of the program.

The study said far more jobs could have been created using other government stimulus programs — increasing unemployment benefits (at $95,000 per job); $80,000-$133,000 per job created for cutting employers’ payroll taxes; $222,000 per job created for reducing employees’ payroll taxes; $200,000 per job created for providing additional Social Security benefits; or $222,000 per job created for allowing the expensing of investment costs.

The study estimates the sales led to 3,676 “job years” — sales supporting a job for a single year — between the automaker and auto parts sector, or at a cost of $1.4 million per job. “This suggests that the CARS program was far less cost effective at creating jobs than other fiscal stimulus programs,” the report said.

The White House Council of Economic Advisers in 2009 had estimated far more jobs as a result of the program. The program “estimated that cash for clunkers will create 70,000 jobs in the second half of 2009.” The White House got into a war of words with Edmunds.com in October 2009 about the value of the program.

Nearly 700,000 vehicles were traded in between July and August 2009 under the program. Participants received either a $3,500 or $4,500 voucher toward the purchase of a new car depending on the difference in fuel efficiency — and the car traded in had to be destroyed. The study credits Alan Blinder for proposing the idea in a New York Times op-ed in July 2008. Initially the program received $1 billion but after the program quickly ran out of money, Congress approved another $2 billion.

The study noted that during “Cash for Clunkers,” the program accounted for 31.4 percent of total auto sales. Vehicle sales fell by 38 percent in September after the program expired. The study and several other studies suggest the program pulled ahead a $2 billion increase in third quarter Gross Domestic Program from the next six months. It also argues that the program “provided a short-term boost in vehicle sales of approximately 380,000 vehicles, which were pulled forward from sales that would have occurred in subsequent months.” The average price of vehicles purchased was $22,592.

But the program also destroyed some perfectly good cars. “Incentivizing the premature destruction of used vehicles represents a loss of capital stock and thus a reduction in economic wealth,” the study said.

A 2012 study found the program resulted in a reduction in gasoline consumption of 884 million to 2.9 billion gallons of gasoline — or 2.4 days to 7.9 days of total U.S. gasoline consumption. The study found the costs for reducing carbon emissions was similar to the $3,400 hybrid tax credit, but more cost effective than the electric vehicle tax credit, excise tax credit for ethanol or renewable fuel standard.

“The cost per ton of carbon dioxide reduced from the program suggests that the program was not a cost effective way to reduce emissions,” the study found.

The bill had required dealers to administer surveys to determine if people taking part had planned to buy a new car without the program. But because the program was rushed into existence, just 21 percent of buyers fully completed the survey.

The Transportation Department didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment. In June, outgoing Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood defended the program, saying the program took automakers “off life support.”

“The showrooms had been abandoned,” LaHood said before the program took effect.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2013 ... z2jGmOtWHg
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Re: Cash for Clunkers

Postby mrswdk on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:29 pm

Cutting payroll tax creates one job per $220,000 spent to make the cut? Isn't that a huge waste of money for everyone involved?
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Re: Cash for Clunkers

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:50 pm

mrswdk wrote:Cutting payroll tax creates one job per $220,000 spent to make the cut? Isn't that a huge waste of money for everyone involved?


Correction: "$80,000-$133,000 per job created for cutting employers’ payroll taxes"

In other words, why do payroll cuts seem 'so expensive'?

That's the wrong question because the payroll cuts can basically be transformed into three types: production, savings/investment, servicing debt, and each has different effects on how its measured in dollars per job (i.e. labor-hours or labor-years). My main point is that the money not confiscated by government doesn't all go directly into employee salaries (thus boosting the observed dollars per labor-hours measurement), and some of these effects from the different allocations of that money are probably not measured at all or are insufficiently measured.

Production:
Some of the money can go into production, where the money directly goes into labor-hours, thus reflecting into the results you see in the article. However, some portion which goes into production is spent on capital (a.k.a. capital investments), and this can create a higher demand for labor and capital in the capital-producing industries. Nevertheless, this 'ripple effect' may go unobserved in the study (I'm not sure if the study incorporated this effect, and how well they did it).


Savings/Investment:
The other portion goes into savings--e.g. businesses sitting on liquid assets (cash), which will be put into later production, which well then be reflected in greater labor hours per dollar but at a later time. This effect goes beyond the scope of the study; it's an unobserved yet real effect.

Also, some portion can accrue interest if that cash is invested in stocks, bonds, etc., and usually 'one person's savings is another's consumption/buying,' so for example buying a USG bond supplies the USG with money which it then spends. And, the interest earned is a profit that can be spent on more labor and capital at some later time. In turn, you should see some increase in dollars per labor-hour due to the purchases of USG debt because of deficit spending, but I'm not sure how or if this study incorporated this effect.

Many studies simply say, "oh USG deficit spending created jobs," and "oh, multiplier effect! More jobs!," but they're overlooking the long-term costs of incurring debt, and they're overlooking the process which supplied that money in the first place (from those businesses and foreign governments buying that debt). Measuring all of this can be difficult, and some of it is perhaps impossible to do.


Servicing Debt
The remainder or perhaps all of the payroll cut can go into servicing debt, so none of it will be reflected in contributing positively to dollars per labor-hours. If this effect is incorporated in the study, then it seems as if the payroll cut is inefficient, but that would be a mistaken conclusion since that money is keeping the business afloat (thus preserving those jobs). To make matters more complicated, servicing the debt which keeps the company running also acts positively toward dollars per labor-hour since those jobs may have otherwise been lost.
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