America's illogicall fixation on race

[muy_thaiguy]

Oh, and there are three distinct parts of my city: the black neighborhood, the Mexican neighborhood and the white neighborhood. That's not racist, by any means, but it leads to racist decisions by the city council and the school board.

De Facto segregation? I thought that the Supreme court outlawed that along with De jure segregation in the 50s and 60s. Though, I can understand why the former would be far harder to try and stop.

[thegreekdog]

I graduated college in 2001. We had an all-black dorm.

[muy_thaiguy]

I graduated college in 2001. We had an all-black dorm.

I graduated High School in 2007. Not very many minority groups in Wyoming to begin with, but a majority live here due to the University, WyoTech, and a branch of LCCC.

[PLAYER57832]

Oh, and there are three distinct parts of my city: the black neighborhood, the Mexican neighborhood and the white neighborhood. That's not racist, by any means, but it leads to racist decisions by the city council and the school board.

De Facto segregation? I thought that the Supreme court outlawed that along with De jure segregation in the 50s and 60s. Though, I can understand why the former would be far harder to try and stop.

The laws only apply to FORCED segregations, prohibitions against "certain" people buying homes/renting, whether overt or more subtle. People are perfectly free to choose where they will live and many choose to live near places with people of their race/culture.

In many cases, it is debateably even positive (to a point). What would China town be with nothing but white faces? Yet....

[Snorri1234]

... As concerns "immigrants"... you left out the qualifying adjective, "illegal". The presence of many, if not most of those Mexicans in the US is a crime. Period. You can argue all you wish about the "real world" and the dependence of local economies on their labor, but none of this negates their criminal status.

The sort of posts I've seen directed at "illegal immigrants" wouldn't be out of place on a skin-head convention.

[thegreekdog]

... As concerns "immigrants"... you left out the qualifying adjective, "illegal". The presence of many, if not most of those Mexicans in the US is a crime. Period. You can argue all you wish about the "real world" and the dependence of local economies on their labor, but none of this negates their criminal status.

The sort of posts I've seen directed at "illegal immigrants" wouldn't be out of place on a skin-head convention.

You know, like the one that says all illegal immigrants should be arrested and deported.

RACISM!

[PLAYER57832]

... As concerns "immigrants"... you left out the qualifying adjective, "illegal". The presence of many, if not most of those Mexicans in the US is a crime. Period. You can argue all you wish about the "real world" and the dependence of local economies on their labor, but none of this negates their criminal status.

The sort of posts I've seen directed at "illegal immigrants" wouldn't be out of place on a skin-head convention.

You know, like the one that says all illegal immigrants should be arrested and deported.

RACISM!

How about let's deport all those who HIRE the illegal aliens... except, oops, they are just poor folks who cannot afford to pay decent wages. Nothing to do with supply and demand, responsibility, etc.

[neanderpaul14]

What would China town be with nothing but white faces?

White-town....

[angola]

Oh, and Nobunga, just read your post that racism only exists in Alabama.

That tells me that you live in a Northern/Midwest city.

In those cities, people like you think racism is a black-white thing that only exists amongst the rednecks in the South.

Well, there are rednecks everywhere.

I lived in Idaho for 8 years. Believe me, rednecks exist in the north also. Oh, and I met some of the most hardcore racists I've ever met in Washington and Idaho.

The racists where I live in Texas, are racist toward blacks, for sure, but they reserve their harshest racism for Mexicans - something the Republican party loves.

You say the liberals keep racism alive under some bullshit moniker called political correctness. I, on the other hand, say Republicans keep racism alive by trying to close the borders and lumping all Mexicans together and shipping them back to their country.

The U.S. was founded on immigrants, so why suddenly are Republicans so afraid of Mexicans?

... My family is multi-racial, I have a bit of insight on this.

... As concerns "immigrants"... you left out the qualifying adjective, "illegal". The presence of many, if not most of those Mexicans in the US is a crime. Period. You can argue all you wish about the "real world" and the dependence of local economies on their labor, but none of this negates their criminal status.

... Why do all the blacks live in "their own neighborhood"? I'd like your analysis on that one.

...

My family is also multi-racial, so I guess that nixes your attempt at claiming you know more than me just because your family is multi-racial. Funny how that works.

Oh, and it is cute how you claim "most Mexicans in the US are illegal." Got numbers to back that broad brush up? Or are you flinging shit against the wall? My guess is you are just flinging shit.

As far as why do all blacks live in "their own neighborhood"? I don't know. You should ask them.

Not all blacks live in one place in my city, just the majority. My guess is because a lot of the white people in this city are somewhat racist, so they keep moving farther and farther away. Also, a lot of it has to do with money and cultural. Some folks like to live near those that are like them.

I don't really expect you to tell me where you live. I understand the idea of anonymity. But at the same time, it is pretty ridiculous to read your posts trying to claim that racism is non-existent in the United States.

Maybe it isn't as open as it was in the 1960s, what with the Klu Klux Klan and all, but it is still there. It is most definitely still there.

[angola]

Oh, and there are three distinct parts of my city: the black neighborhood, the Mexican neighborhood and the white neighborhood. That's not racist, by any means, but it leads to racist decisions by the city council and the school board.

De Facto segregation? I thought that the Supreme court outlawed that along with De jure segregation in the 50s and 60s. Though, I can understand why the former would be far harder to try and stop.

That came out a bit wrong. As a previous poster said, the laws are only against lawful segregation.

It's not like only blacks live in one neighborhood and only Mexicans in another and only whites in another.

It is just predominantly those colors.

My bad for the confusion.

[Nobunaga]

My family is also multi-racial, so I guess that nixes your attempt at claiming you know more than me just because your family is multi-racial. Funny how that works.

... You're being childish. Why so defensive? Funny how that works ?

Oh, and it is cute how you claim "most Mexicans in the US are illegal." Got numbers to back that broad brush up? Or are you flinging shit against the wall? My guess is you are just flinging shit.

... Again with the childsihness. Just flinging shit? I'm arguing with a pre-teen here it seems.

... Here's a link on the numbers. Amazing, being that you live there, you have no idea. Didn't think a link required, but as you're obviously not paying attention:

http://www.cpa.state.tx.us/specialrpt/u ... mented.pdf

As far as why do all blacks live in "their own neighborhood"? I don't know. You should ask them.

Not all blacks live in one place in my city, just the majority. My guess is because a lot of the white people in this city are somewhat racist, so they keep moving farther and farther away. Also, a lot of it has to do with money and cultural. Some folks like to live near those that are like them.

... Now you claim culture as a reason for this segregation? Money I understand. So black people have their own culture? OK. Compare this to white culture for me if you could. Draw any contrast, make any comparisons you like.

... And again, racism exists, certainly, but the degree to which it exists is grossly overstated by folks like you, and by so many others, in attempt to win your arguments. It generally puts people on the defensive. Not me, sorry. In fact, I want to see a link from you now, from a reliable source, to back up your outrageous claims of racism.

... Cheers.

... Also, there's a great book by a woman named Star Parker I think you should read. It's about all you're talking about. Read this, then get back to me. Your teachers in high school (junior high?) won't put this on your list for the year, but I think it would be worth your time).

http://www.amazon.com/Uncle-Sams-Planta ... 332&sr=1-1

...

[Nobunaga]

... As concerns "immigrants"... you left out the qualifying adjective, "illegal". The presence of many, if not most of those Mexicans in the US is a crime. Period. You can argue all you wish about the "real world" and the dependence of local economies on their labor, but none of this negates their criminal status.

The sort of posts I've seen directed at "illegal immigrants" wouldn't be out of place on a skin-head convention.

You know, like the one that says all illegal immigrants should be arrested and deported.

RACISM!

How about let's deport all those who HIRE the illegal aliens... except, oops, they are just poor folks who cannot afford to pay decent wages. Nothing to do with supply and demand, responsibility, etc.

... Are you trying to put words in my mouth? I agree with you, but you can't deport them because they are Americans, no? Jail? Certainly.

... You sidestepped the point, Player.

...

[PLAYER57832]

"]

How about let's deport all those who HIRE the illegal aliens... except, oops, they are just poor folks who cannot afford to pay decent wages. Nothing to do with supply and demand, responsibility, etc.

... Are you trying to put words in my mouth? I agree with you, but you can't deport them because they are Americans, no? Jail? Certainly.

... You sidestepped the point, Player.

...

No, I hit it on the nail. Concentrating on the illegal aspect of those hired, instead of the employers nicely puts the problem on what are essentially victims (of their government, employers here, smugglers, etc.). A large number of these Mexicans who come here truly are poor, uneducated and even naive people with few options. Putting them in jail does nothing because it won't stop the reasons they come.. it won't fix their economy, won't educate their kids, won't dry up the jobs (or make employers pay extra for hiring non-citizens).

The cause of the problem is not people who come here to work. The number of Mexicans allowed to come here legally is far lower than the number people want to hire. Few cared when economic times were good, though they still lowered the basic wages and conditions, etc just as much then as now. Now that times are tighter, suddenly they become criminals who are this huge problem in our country. And yes, race is absolutely another issue that "suddenly" becomes a "problem" when

Are some illegals true criminals, theives, murderers, plain nimcompoops who cannot drive, etc. ... absolutely! But there are 10,000,000 of them here. The percentage of illegal immigrants who commit crimes is far lower than other groups.

As for the "other" problems -- drains on health care, education, etc. THOSE problems would, again, be fixed by targeting employers who have decided hiring illegals is a nice way to escape those "nasty" taxes.

I say we open up more LEGAL, temporary immigration, tighten the rules for citizenship (at least a bit), require employers hiring non-citizens to pay extra taxes to help pay for the extra services their employess need and put in STEEP penalties for any employer who for any reason don't pay those taxes. (perhaps jail time as well, though I think economic incentives are more effective when other criminality is not involved).

[thegreekdog]

No, that's not the point Player. And you did sidestep my point and nobunaga's; probably because you know you're wrong on this one.

And look, if I had my way, there would be no illegal immigration because anyone who wants to come to the US could come to the US. However...

I understand that it is illegal both to knowingly hire illegal immigrants and to illegally immigrate to this country. Both offenses are punishable. One is punishable by fines, the other by deportation. Both of those punishments are reasonable. There's really nothing to argue about, except that when most Republicans come out and say they want to enforce the law, they are labelled racist or racism is suggested.

[Nobunaga]

I understand that it is illegal both to knowingly hire illegal immigrants and to illegally immigrate to this country. Both offenses are punishable. One is punishable by fines, the other by deportation. Both of those punishments are reasonable. There's really nothing to argue about, except that when most Republicans come out and say they want to enforce the law, they are labelled racist or racism is suggested.

... Where do you get that from?

The sort of posts I've seen directed at "illegal immigrants" wouldn't be out of place on a skin-head convention.

... Oh, OK.

... There is no valid argument to support illegal immigration... but they keep trying. I like to think this is motivated by some slanted sense of compassion, but we have to consider the enormous voting block an additional ten (twelve? twenty?) million would represent when we consider their motives.

...

[Snorri1234]

Ok listen up, we need to open our eyes, there’s over 2 million illegal immigrants bedding down in this state tonight. This state spent 3 billion dollars last year on service for those people who had no right to be here in the first place, 3 BILLION DOLLARS! 400 million dollars just to lock up a bunch off illegal immigrant criminals, who only got in this country because the fuckin IRS decided its not worth the effort to screen for convicted felons. Who gives a shit? Our government doesn’t give a shit. our border policy is a joke, so is anyone surprised that south of the border there laughing at us, laughing at our laws. Every night thousands of these parasites stream across the border like some fuckin piñata exploded! Don’t laugh, there’s nothing funny going on here, this is about your life and mine, its about decent, hardworking Americans falling through the cracks and getting the shaft, because their government cares more about the constitutional rights of a bunch people who aren’t even citizens of this country. On the statue of liberty it says, give me your tired, your hungry, your poor… well its Americans who are tired, and hungry, and poor, and I say until you take care of that, close the fucking book, cause we're losing, we're losing our right to pursue our destiny, we're losing our freedom so that a bunch a fucking foreigners can come in here and exploit our country.

[thegreekdog]

Hey snorri, what if I said, simply...

"Enforce our laws and deport all illegal immigrants."

Or if I said - "We have laws on the books that all it is illegal for certain people to be here. We should beef up security on our borders and make it imperative that we catch and deport all illegal immigrants."

Racist?

[PLAYER57832]

No, that's not the point Player. And you did sidestep my point and nobunaga's; probably because you know you're wrong on this one.

And look, if I had my way, there would be no illegal immigration because anyone who wants to come to the US could come to the US. However...

I understand that it is illegal both to knowingly hire illegal immigrants and to illegally immigrate to this country. Both offenses are punishable. One is punishable by fines, the other by deportation. Both of those punishments are reasonable. There's really nothing to argue about, except that when most Republicans come out and say they want to enforce the law, they are labelled racist or racism is suggested.

No, there absolutely IS something to argue about.

Laws are based upon sense and justice. A bad law is a law that needs to be removed, not enforced.

In this case, the Republican party has quite actively and intentionally focused attention on the "illegal" aliens. They do not themselves necessarily outright put race forward, but absolutely are happy to let racists use the rhetoric, feed the fires, etc. (then Republicans can come in and claim to be moderate because "they are just supporting laws.. we are not against honest people"

BUT, that entire argument ignores some plain facts. First, if most of us were in the position of those immigrants, we would likely do the same. I would NOT Murder, rape, sell drugs. I might steel food, but not anything but necessities I need to live. Our justice system DOES make those distinctions. An elderly woman or child who steals a can of tuna is usually not treated just like the guy who holds a gun to the head of a clerk and asks for all the cash in the register. YET, when it comes to illegal aliens, that is exactly what we do. We, in fact, often treat these people who are guilty of nothing more than trespassing worse than felons with mounds of evidence against them. Children are locked up in detention centers... used to have to wear orange prisoner garb (7 year old kids, I mean), until the press got wind of it. I believe it was New Jersey where parents were whisked away and not even allowed to contact day care centers where their kids had been left for the workday. A nursing 8 month infant had to be hospitalized because... gee, nursing babies don't just take to a bottle. You want to call THAT justice? Fighting crime? Again, press reports made the immigration department change actions, but why did those things happen at all in a civilized nation? Simply because they were born on the wrong side of the fence and thought the risks were worth a chance for a better life for their family, they deserve that? (oh, and in case you did not catch it, many of the kids are citizens, so the US harmed CITIZENS, not just illegal people).

Come legally, you say? Nice try! Do you have any idea of how few Mexicans are allowed here under ANY program? Nowhere NEAR the several million who are here working. (the 10,000,000 illegal figure includes folks from all nations).

Meanwhile, employers ARE given an almost free pass. Penalties have been expanded, increased, but real enforcement still centers on locking up immigrants.

FURTHER, many of those so locked up actually ARE applying for legal status! They DID follow channels, but the immigration department is so back-logged that these potential citizens have been locked up. (these include people fleeing war-torn areas, fearing for their lives, people who have testified on drug cases in support of the US, etc. as well as some just plain poor unfortunates who's paperwork was messed up or who have other minor issues needing correction).

If you DON'T think xenophobia and racism are prime movers, then I think you are blind!

For the record, I don't think we should simply give free citizenship to every illegal here (as REAGAN did -- why? because BUSINESSES wanted it!). I think we should have far, far more avenues for people to come here legally, along with MUCH heavier restrictions on employers.

BUT, this is not about immigration, not really. It is about the billions that many sectors are saving by hiring so many illegal people. Politicians give plenty of lip service, but leave the fighting to the racists and forget any real measures that would really and truly change things.

No, I don't say Republicans are racists (well.. most aren't ). I DO say that the Republicans are USING racist and allowing racist rhetoric to advance, much as they have used conservative Christianity to advance their own causes.

[thegreekdog]

Xenophobia and racism are not prime motivators. In fact, they are motivators placed on the conservatives by liberals (like you). As I said, I want the borders to be open to anyone who wants to come. I think that's how it should have been and how it should be. I support amnesty for illegal immigrants of all races, creeds, colors, and birthdays. And yet I am somehow for enforcing the laws as they are currently written. Are they bad laws? Yeah, I thinkso. Do they need to be enforced? You bet.

All this rhetoric about the poor immigrants is all well and good and I support it. However, to put that bullsh!t on the Republicans is ridiculous. There are a large number of legal Hispanic Americans (specifically from Cuba) who are vehemently for the enforcement of the illegal immigration laws. It's really not about race for most people. And Republicans are the ones that want to enforce laws against employing illegal immigrants. But that goes virtually no air time and no attention because it does not serve the purpose of putting forth the idea that Republicans are racist and xenophobes.

Further, think about this one - illegal immigrants can't vote. So why are Democrats protecting them? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Think about that for a few minutes before you go off on some tangent.

At this point, it's really just common sense. There are two courses here. The first course is to wipe the illegal immigration laws off the books. The second course is to enforce the illegal immigration laws that are currently on the books. I would support the former, but if the Republicans want to do the latter, I'm not going to accuse them of racism or xenophobia because it's simply untrue. Illegal immigrants ARE a drain on resources; it's a proven fact. I'll argue that everyone, legal or illegal, should be given an opportunity to succeed in the US, but I'm not going to resort to baseless, ridiculous arguments that Republicans are racists and xenophobes. That's a dishonest and losing argument in my opinion, and it does not serve to advance debate on any level. And reallly, that's the point of calling Republicans racists and xenophobes; Democrats don't want to have a debate on this. They want the status quo to be the status quo. They want illegal immigration laws to go unenforced so that the Republicans can continue to be labelled racists and xenophobes. They don't want illegal immigration laws to be wiped from the books because they lose that moral superiority over the Republicans. And, let's face it, most Hispanics would naturally vote Republican (as most Cubans do).

[Snorri1234]

Hey snorri, what if I said, simply...

"Enforce our laws and deport all illegal immigrants."

Or if I said - "We have laws on the books that all it is illegal for certain people to be here. We should beef up security on our borders and make it imperative that we catch and deport all illegal immigrants."

Racist?

No, just laughably optimistic. The point is not that these people aren't breaking the law, it's that enforcing those laws more is not going to change anything. It won't work so it's absurd to suggest it as the solution. That's why people accuse you and others of racism, because you're ignoring realities to support your ideological view on illegal immigrants which in application is the same as that of neo-nazis.

[Nobunaga]

RESPONSE TO PLAYER POST (it's long, so leaving it out)

... This post has it all. Sob stories galore and a rationalization that, "If I think the law is no good, everybody should be allowed to break it". You even managed to throw in a Reagan slam ("SEE! You guys are just as bad!"). Sob stories from the left are highly suspect, mind. The President himself threw out two sob stories, complete and utter lies, in his address to the joint session on health care. If he can do it, why can't everybody? But I digress.

... Believing a law is wrong should motivate you to activism against that law... legal activism, mind. Player, I know you're not the type to hurl rocks through windows and burn the property of others, but I'm just sayin'. That same belief does not, however, justify a dismisall of the law, allowing any and all to ignore it.

... You seem to be making the assumption that I (or Greekdog) are cheering on these companies that employ illegals, sliding under the radar while the illegals are tossed in jail or deported. That is not the case.

... Build a wall. When and if the law should change, put doors on it.

...

[thegreekdog]

Hey snorri, what if I said, simply...

"Enforce our laws and deport all illegal immigrants."

Or if I said - "We have laws on the books that all it is illegal for certain people to be here. We should beef up security on our borders and make it imperative that we catch and deport all illegal immigrants."

Racist?

No, just laughably optimistic. The point is not that these people aren't breaking the law, it's that enforcing those laws more is not going to change anything. It won't work so it's absurd to suggest it as the solution. That's why people accuse you and others of racism, because you're ignoring realities to support your ideological view on illegal immigrants which in application is the same as that of neo-nazis.

Okay, first of all, my ideological view of illegal immigrants is that there should be no illegal immigration. Let me put it another way - THE US SHOULD HAVE COMPLETELY OPEN BORDERS. There... now that that's out of the way.

Yeah, so, as I replied to Player - there are two options - enforce the laws or get rid of the laws. Instead, we have the laws but don't really enforce them. Read my response to Player.

[PLAYER57832]

RESPONSE TO PLAYER POST (it's long, so leaving it out)

... This post has it all. Sob stories galore and a rationalization that, "If I think the law is no good, everybody should be allowed to break it". You even managed to throw in a Reagan slam ("SEE! You guys are just as bad!"). Sob stories from the left are highly suspect, mind. The President himself threw out two sob stories, complete and utter lies, in his address to the joint session on health care. If he can do it, why can't everybody? But I digress.

... Believing a law is wrong should motivate you to activism against that law... legal activism, mind. Player, I know you're not the type to hurl rocks through windows and burn the property of others, but I'm just sayin'. That same belief does not, however, justify a dismisall of the law, allowing any and all to ignore it.

... You seem to be making the assumption that I (or Greekdog) are cheering on these companies that employ illegals, sliding under the radar while the illegals are tossed in jail or deported. That is not the case.

... Build a wall. When and if the law should change, put doors on it.

...

Snorri summed it up well.

Focusing on illegal aliens as themselves the problem solves nothing.

All you have to do is look at history. Complaints against immigrants ALWAYS goes up when times are poor. At the time, plenty of people are happy to come up with all sorts of justications, but AFTERWARD, it becomes pretty plain that it was just old-fashioned racism. Racism does not arise in isolation. Racism operates by allowing people to see others as different from themselves, which, in turn allows them to justify treatment of others in ways they themselves would not want to be treated.

[thegreekdog]

Focusing on illegal aliens as themselves the problem solves nothing.

So you would be okay if we focused our efforts on companies that employ illegal aliens?

If so, all of your posts in this thread are invalidated. Because, really, what you said in those posts is that we should do away with the illegal immigration laws (or else not enforce them) because everyone should have the opportunity to succeed in the United States. So, if we go after the companies that employ illegal aliens, we would be denying immigrants the opportunity to succeed in the United States. So, your previous posts are all invalid.

[Snorri1234]

Okay, first of all, my ideological view of illegal immigrants is that there should be no illegal immigration. Let me put it another way - THE US SHOULD HAVE COMPLETELY OPEN BORDERS. There... now that that's out of the way.

So? Doesn't mean my post is any less valid except that it doesn't include you then.

Yeah, so, as I replied to Player - there are two options - enforce the laws or get rid of the laws. Instead, we have the laws but don't really enforce them. Read my response to Player.

The point is that enforcing the laws won't work. To support enforcing laws simply because they are law is absurd when it won't really change anything except drive up costs. I think that marijuana should be legal here and that the law on blaspheming should be scrapped, but if that doesn't happen I'm ok with not really enforcing the laws.

It's like the war on drugs: incredibly costly, no real effect at all but people and politicians can't seem to understand there is a better solution. Still, I think ending it but keeping the law is better than not ending it.