Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[Neutrino]

Here come the justifications.

I was justifying nothing.

While he is generally quite funny, I actually think his comments in this thread are a little over the top. Not enough to complain about, though. If you want him to stop, that's your perogative.

What I was doing was pointing out the logical holes in your arguments to get him to shut up.

[CrazyAnglican]

Hey CA, I do Martial Arts, and it only has helped me with my faith.

Yep, Me too.

[Beastly]

To answer coffeecream,

The best way to find out why certain people believe certain things, is to study those people and what they believe.

people who are Christian rely on the bible to find out what they need to know about god, so If you study the bible, then you would understand why they believe what they believe.

I once heard this great saying, it goes like this...

Believing is all about choice..

No one can choose for you and no one can make you choose.


That is why there is free will, so you can choose what you are to believe.

The bible was written by different men, and it is what they believed.

If you can't understand the bible by reading it on your own, there are churches and bible studies.

You will only be able to make the best choice by really studying. Other wise, what you choose to believe may be based on pure ignorance.

Let me see if I follow. The bible holds all the answers. It was written by different men, thousands of years ago. The assumption is that what these men wrote is the transcribed "word" of an unseen diety and not their own personal/political motives from this ancient time. Correct?

It would seem to me that any ignorance lies in believing all of the above is 100% accurate and without question.

Not studying and drawing upon a opinion, because you simply choose not to believe can bring on a decision based on ignorance.. YES...

[Backglass]

Not studying and drawing upon a opinion, because you simply choose not to believe can bring on a decision based on ignorance.. YES...

What makes you think I haven't "studied"? Do you think I just woke up one day and decided that magical gods were invented by mankind? I came to my conclusion by asking questions, observing the world around me and yes...listening to/reading the stories of the bible. A great book, no doubt. But a book of semi-fiction. Choosing to believe a book of stories, written thousands of years ago by a primitive people, as 100% fact and without question is delusional.

If this were ANY other ancient book, you would agree.

[Snorri1234]

Yeah Beastly, ofcourse it's silly to draw an opinion without study, but that holds true for everything....

[Beastly]

Not studying and drawing upon a opinion, because you simply choose not to believe can bring on a decision based on ignorance.. YES...

What makes you think I haven't "studied"? Do you think I just woke up one day and decided that magical gods were invented by mankind? I came to my conclusion by asking questions, observing the world around me and yes...listening to/reading the stories of the bible. A great book, no doubt. But a book of semi-fiction. Choosing to believe a book of stories, written thousands of years ago by a primitive people, as 100% fact and without question is delusional.

If this were ANY other ancient book, you would agree.

Wow, Backglass you got some paranoia or something... What makes you think I said you haven't studied? I never said anything of the sort to you or about you.. But if you want my opinion, I will give it, I doubt very much you have read the whole bible, and got into what is called the meat of it... You probably touched up here or there on it.

The bible says to question everything, it also says to find 2 witnesses (meaning in the bible) to validate what you read and preach. One person can read a passage and another can read the same passage and both can understand it completely different. I really don't understand what you exactly found that is semi-fiction? And also, primitive or not, people are people. They wrote according to the times they were living in.

Basically it all comes down to a choice, either study and believe or study and don't believe. If you find something that you don't understand or find hard to believe, then you question it, that's what church people are for.

[Snorri1234]

So basically you're suggesting that the only reasonable decision is believing in the teachings of christ and accept him as our saviour?

[CrazyAnglican]

I don't know if you were responding to Beastly, but I don't think that is what she said at all.

She merely stated that the Bible encourages us to question. I've heard my big brother say many times "Question what you are doing and what you are told. If it is of God, it will stand up to scrutiny."

[Tyr]

tom jefferson said question with boldness evn the existence of god fo if there be one he must more prefer homage to reason then blind obiedience

[Backglass]

Wow, Backglass you got some paranoia or something... What makes you think I said you haven't studied? I never said anything of the sort to you or about you.

My mistake. It was implied, or so I thought.

But if you want my opinion, I will give it, I doubt very much you have read the whole bible, and got into what is called the meat of it... You probably touched up here or there on it.

An opinion? Around here? Why would I want THAT!? No I havent read the entire bible cover to cover. Are you suggesting that one must do so in order to "get it"?

I really don't understand what you exactly found that is semi-fiction?

Semi-fiction meaning some parts fiction, some parts non-fiction.

Fiction:

• Talking plants
• Supernatural gods impregnating earth women
• Talking snakes.
• Two of every animal on the planet in a man-made wooden boat.
• Walking dead.
• Men with wings
• Humans turning to piles of salt.
• Demonic possession
• Oceans parting at the whim of a man.
• Water turning into wine at will.

Non-fiction:

• Charismatic men gathering followers.
• Pregnancy.
• Mental Illness
• Moral teachings
• War.
• Stoning's.
• Crusaders.

And also, primitive or not, people are people. They wrote according to the times they were living in.

EXACTLY. A primitive time in which things as simple as the solar system, tides, disease and reproduction were great, godly mysteries.

Basically it all comes down to a choice, either study and believe or study and don't believe.

I did the latter. I questioned and received nothing but more questions and "you just need faith" or "pray harder for answers". The answers aren't coming because you are praying to something that isn't there.

It's just an adult game of make believe. It sure would be nice if there was a sky-daddy helping us out, but look around. He's a deadbeat dad.

[daddy1gringo]

I think it’s been proven pretty effectively, both in this thread and others, that while science, facts, and logic cannot prove that God exists, neither can they prove that he does not.

Prove that something does not exist? Agreed. It is very hard to prove, for example, that Leprechauns do not exist. Yet, most people believe they do not. Is it because they simply lack faith? Or because rational people realize that this is a superstition invented by man to explain away mysteries.

So you are saying that the reason you don’t believe in God, is that you “realize that this is a superstition invented by man to explain away mysteries.” That is not a reason to believe there is no God, it is a conclusion about why people believe, already assuming there isn’t. If you are saying that this is the reason you don’t believe, then you are proving my point that you started with the conclusion you wanted to reach, without regard for fact or reason, as you accuse the believers of doing.

Nevertheless, somehow an impression has been created that asserting that God exists is blind faith, and asserting that he does not is reason. That is simply not true.

Probably not to you, as you obviously have blind faith in a god. To those with clear heads, it is more obvious.

Well, let’s see, if a person had blind faith, his posts would sound like “My opinion is true, because it is obvious to me, and anyone who disagrees is a deceived idiot.” Whose posts sound like that, yours or mine?

Believing that God does not exist is no more rational than believing that he does. As others have said, those who believe God does not exist, do so because that is what they have chosen to believe, just as much as, and I believe more so than, those of us who believe He does.

Then by this reasoning, you must also believe in Leprechauns. After all you cannot prove they do not exist so by your thinking, they must.

Don’t be absurd. I’m not saying that BECAUSE logic can’t prove either way, that THEREFORE PROVES that God exists. I am saying that one must look for their reason to believe or not believe from another source, and that neither one is necessarily more logical than the other. I am also saying that people generally DO derive their reason from a source other than logic, whether they admit it or not.

But the intellectual cop out is not facing that your supposed “proof” doesn’t prove anything. It is absolutely logical, given the premise, to realize that we are not going to understand all of the things he does, and absolutely illogical to expect that we would.

Again, please PROVE that Fire Breathing Dragons don't exist. You cannot. ..but this does not make them exist either.

Again, that’s my point. You are the one who is saying that it proves something.

The beginning premise of these assertions is “*IF* God, the God of the Bible, existed…” *If* such a god exists, he created all of the minds that have ever existed and gave them their capacity to think. Yours, mine, MeDeFe’s, DaVinci’s etc., etc. If he exists his plans are constantly taking into account everything from the galaxies to the electrons, from the actions and intentions of the greatest ruler to those of the humblest beggar, past, present and future. If he exists, he exists outside of our 4 dimensions and laws of nature, since he created them. Do you really think that one finite human mind is going to understand always his plan and actions?

Ah yes the "we cannot fathom his actions" defense. He never shows himself or acts upon any of the ugliness of the world, therefore it must be that we just don't understand him. This is just convenient wishful thinking for an absent diety.

You assert that is what it is, but once again you are begging the question.

You can't ask me to prove that it is reasonable that God exists, starting with the premise that he does not. That is illogical. You can't start a hypothesis with a particular premise, and then withdraw it at the end when it is inconvenient.

Yet it is perfectly acceptable for you to withdraw a perfectly logical premise of non-existence by saying "we cannot fathom his actions because he is so great". That is a double-standard and indeed a convenient cop-out.

This is where you really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. For your statement that I am also withdrawing some premise to make any sense I would have had to have made an argument: “If God did not exist, X would occur. Since X does not occur, God must exist.” I have made no such statement.

We’re talking about arguments like yours: “*If* God existed he would show himself.” It starts with the premise “*If* God existed…” If you are consistent with this premise, then your assertion that you know how far he would go to make his existence obvious is a delusion of grandeur. You say this is a cop-out, but never back it up. You just assert it by blind faith. More about this in another post.

[Beastly]

Fiction:

• Talking plants
• Supernatural gods impregnating earth women
• Talking snakes.
• Two of every animal on the planet in a man-made wooden boat.
• Walking dead.
• Men with wings
• Humans turning to piles of salt.
• Demonic possession
• Oceans parting at the whim of a man.
• Water turning into wine at will.

d.

I can understand how you would believe that this is all fiction, However, you did not list any where it says any of those things.

Except the wooden boat part, is the only thing I know what your talking about. And it is possible for a man to build a boat and put animals on it..... So that is not fiction.

Jesus did turn water into wine, according to the scriptures, along with walking on water and doing other impossible things. That is why the scriptures were made and people believed in him and followed him.

The rest of the stuff you listed you did not show where any of those things are stated, I have never heard of Talking plants.

Also, how do you know that Demonic possession is not possible or anything else. How do you prove it?

I never saw anything saying Supernatural gods impregnating earth women nor Talking plants. as far as the snake talking you have to study to have a understanding of this... Men with wings? where?

Also, about the pile of salt bit, well if they lived by a volcano, and did not escape, when the bible said don't turn back, I didn't understand it to mean don't look, I understand it to mean, do go back to collect your belongs or to try to save people... What do you think happens to a human in pyroclastic clouds?

This is what I mean about studying and getting to the meat of the subject rather than drawing a conclusion based on ignorance. again, no matter what anybody says, it is your choice to believe. No body can make you, and no-body can choose for you. It's up to you to seek, and if you choose not to believe, then that's your choice. But it certainly doesn't mean, that people who do believe are wrong. It also does not mean that what you believe is wrong, however with this last post, you show that you haven't studied much in what you are saying is fiction.

[Skittles!]

Wow, Beastly, shows how much you have read of the Bible, eh?

Talking Plants - Moses was shown "the way" when God somehow went into a plant, making it burn due to His brightness, and telling him what to do.

I never saw anything saying Supernatural gods impregnating earth women nor Talking plants. as far as the snake talking you have to study to have a understanding of this... Men with wings? where?

Where? You're honestly asking where? You're blonde, right? God impregnated (Or the Archangel Gabriel did) Mary to give birth to Jesus. Mary is from Earth, God is from the supernatural Heaven.
Men with wings, I'm sure he was talking about Angels. The many angels that had shown the "Three wise men" to find Mary, Joseph and soon-to-be-born Jesus.

Now me and a few others know you've studied hard Beastly! I'm sure you'll pass your Christian tests soon! Just keeping studying!

[Beastly]

i would like you to show where it says god impregnated in the way you imply it... The miracle was it was a virgin birth.

As far as the plant talking to moses. I never have seen that. I also don't claim to be a bible scholar. But, i don't go around passing judgment on others beliefs unless I have studied what they believe. So if you want to put where in the bible you found the things you are claiming, you need to put the verse, and it should be studied. by both the believer and the unbeliever.

[Skittles!]

Well, I don't remember the exact passage but I'm sure it was somewhere in Exodus (it was whilst Moses was travelling the desert and this was how he knew he had to free the Israelites from the Egyptians.)

The Virgin Mary was told by the Archangel Gabriel that she has been chosen by God to have his one and only Son, Jesus. Do you think God went to her that night and had hard hot sex whilst Joseph was next to her? No, the Archangel would of just passed God's seed into her whilst he was telling her about it. I'm thinking it was like that.

[Snorri1234]

Except the wooden boat part, is the only thing I know what your talking about. And it is possible for a man to build a boat and put animals on it..... So that is not fiction.

Uhm....yes sure it's possible for a man to build a boat and put animals on it. But it is impossible to build a boat to accomodate 2 of every animal on the entire world. The boat would either sink or break.
The floodstory is ridiculous anyway.

And all other things listed as fiction by Backglass are actually in the bible. Jesus brought some dude back to life, moses parted the red sea, the devil took the form of a snake and told Eve to eat the apple..... stuff like that.

[vtmarik]

I can understand how you would believe that this is all fiction, However, you did not list any where it says any of those things.

Except the wooden boat part, is the only thing I know what your talking about. And it is possible for a man to build a boat and put animals on it..... So that is not fiction.

All of the animals? All of them? Including the ones that are new to the world? Let's assume for a second that creation is the only answer, that would mean something like 3 million species (or more, let's just use this number for illustration's sake) and two of each kind. A boat of the size described in the Bible would have a tough time holding 6 million creatures, let alone floating with them on board.

Jesus did turn water into wine, according to the scriptures, along with walking on water and doing other impossible things. That is why the scriptures were made and people believed in him and followed him.

Penn & Teller have turned water into wine and Criss Angel has walked on water. How do we know that Jesus' feats weren't illusions to convince his flock that he had divine powers?

The rest of the stuff you listed you did not show where any of those things are stated, I have never heard of Talking plants.

Burning Bush.

Also, how do you know that Demonic possession is not possible or anything else. How do you prove it?

Well, to the atheist there are no demons, and therefore no demonic possession.

I never saw anything saying Supernatural gods impregnating earth women nor Talking plants. as far as the snake talking you have to study to have a understanding of this... Men with wings? where?

As said before, angels.

Also, about the pile of salt bit, well if they lived by a volcano, and did not escape, when the bible said don't turn back, I didn't understand it to mean don't look, I understand it to mean, do go back to collect your belongs or to try to save people... What do you think happens to a human in pyroclastic clouds?

They burn and/or dissolve, they don't turn to salt. Besides, if the volcano had exploded with such force as to cover Lot's wife in a pyroclastic cloud, don't you think that it would be in the story? Instead of "she turned to salt," wouldn't it have read "She was engulfed in a flaming cloud?"

At least, theoretically?

[daddy1gringo]

Okay, let’s deal with this issue of “He doesn’t show himself.”

First of all, that makes your standard of what is real “it has to be an object that light reflects off of which meets with the retina of Backglass.” By that standard there are a lot of other things you’d have to say don’t exist: from hydrogen atoms to love, from Julius Caesar to your brain.

This “showing himself” you’re talking about, what would it be like? Where should he “show himself”? Your living room? The sky over your house? Wait, for the whole world to see him he’d have to appear in at least 2 points in the sky, the earth being a 3-dimensional sphere (yes, Christians do believe the world is a sphere) actually more than 2, because for the people close to the meridian between, he’d be too low on the horizon. Maybe he should just book a spot on Larry King Live. No, wait, that excludes the people in the 3rd world, who if they own a TV can't pay the cable bill.

Now, what would you like this “himself” to look like when he shows it? He’s a spirit, and doesn’t “look like” anything. The evil spaghetti monster? Oh, wait, how about an old man with a long, white beard? Something between Michelangelo’s ceiling and Gary Larson’s Far Side where God is racking up all the points on Jeopardy. George Burns? Morgan Freeman?

So spell it out. This “show himself” you speak of, what would it be like?

[vtmarik]

Okay, let’s deal with this issue of “He doesn’t show himself.”

First of all, that makes your standard of what is real “it has to be an object that light reflects off of which meets with the retina of Backglass.” By that standard there are a lot of other things you’d have to say don’t exist: from hydrogen atoms to love, from Julius Caesar to your brain.

This “showing himself” you’re talking about, what would it be like? Where should he “show himself”? Your living room? The sky over your house? Wait, for the whole world to see him he’d have to appear in at least 2 points in the sky, the earth being a 3-dimensional sphere (yes, Christians do believe the world is a sphere) actually more than 2, because for the people close to the meridian between, he’d be too low on the horizon. Maybe he should just book a spot on Larry King Live. No, wait, that excludes the people in the 3rd world, who if they own a TV can't pay the cable bill.

Now, what would you like this “himself” to look like when he shows it? He’s a spirit, and doesn’t “look like” anything. The evil spaghetti monster? Oh, wait, how about an old man with a long, white beard? Something between Michelangelo’s ceiling and Gary Larson’s Far Side where God is racking up all the points on Jeopardy. George Burns? Morgan Freeman?

So spell it out. This “show himself” you speak of, what would it be like?

Quite possibly it would be something simple. Controlled environment, lab conditions, a tester in the room, across from an empty glass jar.

The tester says "God, knock over that jar."

The jar gets knocked over.

Again, the tester says "God, break that jar."

The jar shatters.

Thirdly, the tester says "God, fix that jar."

The jar comes together and is a whole jar again.

Finally, the tester says "God, fill this empty jar will peanut butter."

The jar fills with peanut butter instantly.



Would that convince Backglass, more than likely. by "Show yourself" he most likely means "prove your existence" not necessarily "Pop around and chat with me"

[Backglass]

Okay, let’s deal with this issue of “He doesn’t show himself.”

Yes! Lets!

First of all, that makes your standard of what is real “it has to be an object that light reflects off of which meets with the retina of Backglass.”

Not neccesarily. Of course the easiest thing for any god to do would be the giant face/light/orb in the sky speaking to the world at once in all languages. For that matter forget the visual...just the voice would do. Surely a god that can create entire solar systems can pull this off. But as you say, maybe this isn't a gods style.

But it must be something undeniably godlike. None of this hiding in the shadows with mysterious, unprovable "signs".

By that standard there are a lot of other things you’d have to say don’t exist: from hydrogen atoms to love, from Julius Caesar to your brain.

Ah yes, Nates "prove to me that YOU exist" parlor game. Well, first off those things aren't gods that created all life and I should devote my life to. But if you want to debate that those things do or don't exist we can take that up in another thread if you wish.

This “showing himself” you’re talking about, what would it be like? Where should he “show himself”? Your living room? The sky over your house? Wait, for the whole world to see him he’d have to appear in at least 2 points in the sky, the earth being a 3-dimensional sphere (yes, Christians do believe the world is a sphere) actually more than 2, because for the people close to the meridian between, he’d be too low on the horizon. Maybe he should just book a spot on Larry King Live. No, wait, that excludes the people in the 3rd world, who if they own a TV can't pay the cable bill.

Funny, but if a god can create life from nothing, surely it can also be in two, three or one thousand places at once...no?

If a god were to communicate in some way (dream, face in sky, voices, grilled cheese, etc) that, oh, the moon would disappear for one week...and then it did...I would consider that proof.

Or make everyone on the planet mute for a day.

Or for an hour we could have a conversation with our pets. Gods have made animals talk before...correct?

Or turn Lake Superior into Wine.

What I don't consider proof is hundreds of thousands of people watching a TV preacher and one persons MS goes into remission.

Now, what would you like this “himself” to look like when he shows it? He’s a spirit, and doesn’t “look like” anything. The evil spaghetti monster? Oh, wait, how about an old man with a long, white beard? Something between Michelangelo’s ceiling and Gary Larson’s Far Side where God is racking up all the points on Jeopardy. George Burns? Morgan Freeman?

You make me laugh! Fine. We don't have to "see" it. It could place a common message planted in every humans mind simultaneously, worldwide. That would do it.

Or how about this..... Every house plant in the world begins to burn and a voice speaks out of it. Not one person alone, with no evidence...but everyone at the same time.

[bspride]

OK I've been reading the Christians go back and forth with the nonbelievers or whatever you want to call them. I find the whole idea of eternal bliss or eternal damnation an interesting topic. I'm taking a world religions class. If the JF's here are willing I want to engage them in a discussion because I've got some questions for them.

I should define what I believe so we're all clear here. First of all I think the idea of evolution to be silly. Nature just magically selected certain species to survive and thrive? No way! There's too many holes in the theories and nobody's been able to prove it. The people who believe in it are welcome to it, but they've been given enough time to produce the evidence and they never are able to. There's too much complexity and design in the world for me to deny that there is some type of supreme being or higher power. If you want to call it God then go ahead.

On the other hand, you've got the Christians claiming that God loves everyone. There are so many inconsistencies with their claims. Let me just point out a few that I think are bogus.

1. God is omniscient. Ok if that's true then why did he create Satan knowing that he would one day rebel? Doesn't that mean that God indirectly created evil? Then how could He be considered a good God. Also why did he allow for man to eat the apple? That seems a little cruel to me - sort of like teasing a child into doing something that's bad for them.

2. If God is all powerful then why doesn't he just show himself to everyone? Either that or perform some miracle which would prove to everyone once and for all that he is actually interested in us. I think he exists by the way, but Christians tell us that he loves us. Why doesn't he get involved in all the wars here and put an end to them all? I don't think anyone can prove that this supreme being is really directly interested in our affairs.

3. Since Christians believe in free will, then why do they constantly want to legislate morality? Shouldn't people be free to do pretty much what they want as long as it conforms to the law or aren't killing anyone?

4. From what I'm reading on here it sounds like that someone can live the absolute worst life but then 'accept' Jesus (whatever that means) and still go to heaven (wherever that is). On the flip side, someone can live the absolute best life but not 'accept' Jesus and still go to hell. Huh!!! Oh yeah, and how can a loving God send someone to hell in the first place?

If any Jesus Freaks or Christians want to discuss this I will listen and not call you a name or make fun of you. My position is that there is some type of God or supreme being but it's impossible to personally know him as he stopped caring about us or is apathetic. I await any of you.

Heres your answers from my Catholic point of view.

1. God didnt create the "Devil" he created an angel named Lucifer who himself changed himself into the devil. Yes i know your saying well god can see into everything so he should have known whats up but he instead decided to create him. Maybe he thought he could prevent that from happening or maybe he though life would be odd with no evil???

2. God doesnt show himself because you first must prove yourself by your faith to him. God doesnt get involved in wars because thats how he rolls, he is God he can do anything he wants. He also doesnt believe like wars.

3. Yes you are partly right but sometimes doing things that arent against the law still doesnt make them right.

4. Accepting jesus is faith and god places faith above all. Also how can a loving family member send someone to jail? its in their own good so he does it.

[unriggable]

Prove that any of that is true. It is no more valid at this point than the tooth fairy.

[bspride]

thats what religion is all about "FAITH"! when you were young you had faith that the tooth fairy was gonna come and give you a quarter for your tooth.

[vtmarik]

thats what religion is all about "FAITH"! when you were young you had faith that the tooth fairy was gonna come and give you a quarter for your tooth.

Since it is all about faith, why do you need a book? Why do you need buildings and statues and pendants? Why all the theater?

Since it's all faith and you don't need proof to have faith, why continue to claim that he exists. When someone says "Does God exist?" the perfect response would be "I have faith."

It's impossible to disprove faith, and therefore unassailable. Sure, New Atheists can assault you with claims about how the miracles were magic tricks and that Jesus never existed and so forth, but you have faith.

Just say, "I have faith because I do" and move on.

Those kids from the Apple Jacks commercials, remember them? The cereal didn't taste like apples, but they ate it because "we eat what we like." It confused the parents who expected parity between the name of the cereal and the flavor, but the kids didn't care about that. They were just happy that it was tasty.

Take a cue from Apple Jacks. Don't try to rationalize it or claim that God exists because he has to exist or try to find evidence in nature. All you have to say is that God exists because you have faith. If you can come to grips with the possibility that He may or may not be willed into existence by your faith alone, then your beliefs will be as strong as the pillars of heaven....

Regardless of whether or not those pillars really exist.

[bspride]

Why all the theatre for anything? If you enjoy something you shouldnt need anything to help you continue enjoying it. But without these "theatre" what helps bring new people in? Why commercials and ads: to bring people in, even though the church is about more things its still a business, but it just so happens its boss created everything.