Logic dictates that there is a God!

[jay_a2j]

Am I invisible around these parts or what?

No, I just took more time with the answer that a quick one liner!

[jay_a2j]

We can't say with 100% certainty that we are not actually living in the matrix, we cannot say with 100% certainty that mice aren't actually a multidimensional being in disguise that are trying to manipulate the human race through their involvement in a lot of scientific experiments(yeah, so I'm not original), we cannot say with 100% certainty that rocks can't turn into life and we cannot say with 100% certainty whether a creator exists or not.(you might be sure he exists, based on personal reasons, but we obviously cannot make any objective claims or we wouldn't be having this debate)

I'm 99.9% sure of ALL THESE THINGS with the exception of a creator existing, in which case I'm 100% certain.

Great, so you are saying you can't possibly know for sure if life can come from a rock. I agree.

So now what you are doing is taking two statements that from all the objective knowledge humankind has are both staggeringly unlikely.
1. Life can come from a rock
2. The entire universe was made by an intelligent creator with X,Y,Z characteristics.

And saying 1. is really implausible so 2. must be true, but you are ignoring the fact that 2. is also very implausible.
It's exactly the same as my previous example, but let me give you another.

1. A human being can survive a plane crash from a height of 10000 meters (link)
2. People can make deals with demons, selling their souls in return for some service.

1. is really implausible, therefore 2. must be true and Vesna must have sold her soul to survive.

See, doesn't really make sense, because the second option is as (or more) implausible than the first, so it makes no sense to assume it is true because the first is too unlikely.

No, no, no. The point is finding the ORIGIN of life. If LIFE CANNOT come from non-life + there IS LIFE today = Life CAME from a living entity which one MUST assume has always existed! (Otherwise LIFE would not exist today)


If you have a universe with no life in it, it will NEVER have life in it. Thus, it has ALWAYS had life in it. Hence an ETERNAL living being.

See but you just admitted that you can't be 100% sure if life can come from non-life. That's the point, no matter how ridiculous some thing may seem to us, there's no way to be 100% sure about it.

Let me clarify:

I am 99.9% sure we are not living in the matrix
I am 99.9% sure mice aren't trying to manipulate the human race
I am 99.9% sure that rocks can't turn into life
and
I am 100% sure a creator exists.

[stuart133]

I am 100% sure a creator exists.

Why?
What gives God exemption from your normal scrutiny??

[Haggis_McMutton]

Let me clarify:

I am 99.9% sure we are not living in the matrix
I am 99.9% sure mice aren't trying to manipulate the human race
I am 99.9% sure that rocks can't turn into life
and
I am 100% sure a creator exists.

Yes, i got that, i was just trying to say that since you agree with me that you can't be sure about life coming from non-life, your previous argument doesn't hold. I have no issue with you being 100% sure a creator exist as long as you admit that you are 100% sure because of personal reasons and not any kind of objective arguments, logic or what not.

[joecoolfrog]

Evolution is almost certainly true. Once you understand how it works there is very little room for doubt. If you believe in a creator God, even if you're a Christian, you can still accept evolution. Otherwise there would be little to no Christian scientists. They are not mutually exclusive; this is a false dichotomy perpetuated by radical atheists and fundamentalist Christians.

Despite what the likes of Jay think this is the position adopted by the great majority of Christians , if fundamentalists cant accept reality then I think it shows the weakness of their faith rather than the strength. As an atheist I see no reason to denigrate anybodys personal belief so if they can fit a God into their picture then fine , the reverse also applies which is why I believe in a secular society . Militant Atheists and Fundamentalists are as bad as one another, they are not content to live with their beliefs so attempt to foist them on others, it smacks of insecurity to me.

[joecoolfrog]

I have a question. This is pointed more towards Jay than anyone else. I don't go to church. I sometimes (But very rarely) read the bible. But, I believe in God. I have faith that he created the world, man, and everything else. But, since I don't read the bible or go to church, does this mean that I will go to hell? I've been saved, and gave my heart to god. I'm still young, and sometimes I think that he isn't real, but that's usually when I'm reading bullshit about evolution. It makes me think to hard about the subject, when you're watching or reading things about evolution, and how the they could actually be true, but the people writing say all the right things to make you believe it. This is a serious question.

I am not at all surprised that you are confused , many young minds are in turmoil because of the creationist and fundamentalist zealots, believing in evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God so on that account you need not regard it as bullshit.
As a non believer I have always thought it rather odd that an omnipotent God would insist on the acknowledgement of himself and his son but that seems to be the aproved Christian pathway to heaven. So if you believe in Jesus and his message then that is all it takes , prayer , church attendance, biblical study and all the rest are all just optional extras.

[jay_a2j]

Let me clarify:

I am 99.9% sure we are not living in the matrix
I am 99.9% sure mice aren't trying to manipulate the human race
I am 99.9% sure that rocks can't turn into life
and
I am 100% sure a creator exists.

Yes, i got that, i was just trying to say that since you agree with me that you can't be sure about life coming from non-life, your previous argument doesn't hold. I have no issue with you being 100% sure a creator exist as long as you admit that you are 100% sure because of personal reasons and not any kind of objective arguments, logic or what not.

Where I can't be sure, 99.9% is extremely close. Close enough to bet money on.

[Snorri1234]

OH NO! YOU'RE RIGHT! EVOLUTION IS ALL LIES! LET'S GO WORSHIP JAY'S PARTICULAR SKYDADDY INSTEAD OF THE MILLIONS OF OTHER GODS IN HISTORY!

He's not talking about evolution, he's talking about abiogenesis.

Also, I find it funny that some atheists see the fact that God has been perceived in countless different ways throughout the millennia as proof that God doesn't exist...

A.)I am not going to respond seriously to people who say shit like "rocks can't turn into organisms" in a serious way.

B.) It's not proof that God doesn't exist, it's proof that your particular deity is unlikely to be the true one. Have fun in Tartaros.

[Snowden]

OH NO! YOU'RE RIGHT! EVOLUTION IS ALL LIES! LET'S GO WORSHIP JAY'S PARTICULAR SKYDADDY INSTEAD OF THE MILLIONS OF OTHER GODS IN HISTORY!

He's not talking about evolution, he's talking about abiogenesis.

Also, I find it funny that some atheists see the fact that God has been perceived in countless different ways throughout the millennia as proof that God doesn't exist...

A.)I am not going to respond seriously to people who say shit like "rocks can't turn into organisms" in a serious way.

B.) It's not proof that God doesn't exist, it's proof that your particular deity is unlikely to be the true one. Have fun in Tartaros.

So you respond to my casual comment with a very childish outburst? I was serious, but not being formal at the same time. Please, if its not constructive, don't reply to my comments.

[AAFitz]

OH NO! YOU'RE RIGHT! EVOLUTION IS ALL LIES! LET'S GO WORSHIP JAY'S PARTICULAR SKYDADDY INSTEAD OF THE MILLIONS OF OTHER GODS IN HISTORY!

He's not talking about evolution, he's talking about abiogenesis.

Also, I find it funny that some atheists see the fact that God has been perceived in countless different ways throughout the millennia as proof that God doesn't exist...

Actually, I think you are percieving what some atheists say incorrectly. The reason that a god, and many gods have been "perceived in countless different ways throughout the millennia" is mentioned, is that many of those gods, realistically have not been God. Therefore, it shows that human beings are very capable of believing in a god or gods that do not exist, which means its very possible that any that believe in God, believe despite the fact that He may very well not exist.

It doesnt prove there is no God at all, nothing ever could. What it proves is the human ability to manufacture stories and come to believe them, which makes all beliefs suspect.

Believers however, use the fact that many believe as proof that God must exist, and it is that which mentioning the many gods previously worshiped goes to show is no proof of anything, other than the fact that many people believe, or pretend to believe.

[AAFitz]

I have a question. This is pointed more towards Jay than anyone else. I don't go to church. I sometimes (But very rarely) read the bible. But, I believe in God. I have faith that he created the world, man, and everything else. But, since I don't read the bible or go to church, does this mean that I will go to hell? I've been saved, and gave my heart to god. I'm still young, and sometimes I think that he isn't real, but that's usually when I'm reading bullshit about evolution. It makes me think to hard about the subject, when you're watching or reading things about evolution, and how the they could actually be true, but the people writing say all the right things to make you believe it. This is a serious question.

"If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

I don't have a steady church and haven't been in a long time. My Bible reading has become almost non-existent. But I most definitely believe that Jesus is the Son of God, died for my sins and raised from the dead. I have believed this for the past 25 years and although my personal walk is less (much less) than perfect, God who is perfect knows my heart.

As far as evolution is concerned. I've dealt with teachers/professors who talk about it as if it were a fact. Like they have the proof in their back pocket but neglect to show it. Some Christians believe in evolution but they (and I'm speaking of committed Christians, not "people who attend a Christian church") are in the minority. Will they "go to hell" because they believe in evolution? No more that I will go to hell because I don't. The issue of evolution is not a salvation issue. But Satan is the master of deceit and when he plants doubts about our faith, that's really a time we need to talk to God and read His Word. Because I'd say most, if not all, Christians go through this at one time or another. But it's nothing we can't overcome through Christ.

Unless of course, if Christ was not actually God, and you have been worshiping a false god your entire life, a rule expressly forbidden in the very bible you quote above.

Who saw christ rise from the dead? How many people? Did they have anything to gain? Does the fact that people wrote about the supposed event make it true? With nearly no proof whatsoever, you possibly betray the one God you absolutely know to be true, with this very possible impostor of a god, simply because someone added some pages to your original bible.
But I suppose you know this must also be true 100%. I mean, how could you possibly ever be wrong about such things? The rest of the world must be wrong. They just have to be, or it would mean youve been worshiping the wrong god your entire life, and devoted your life to a blasphemous joke, simply because someone told you to read one book, and not another.

Luckily, I believe no God of good would allow such a possibility to exist. I think a god of good makes such a possibility impossible defacto. Therefore, logically, one must assume that God is either not a God of pure good, which of course is possible, or that he may very well not exist at all. If he is a God of good, than no one has anything to fear about any belief of anything, because a god of good would not worry about any such technicalities and only care about His children. In which case, it means you have still wasted your entire life worshiping a God, which most certainly, is not exactly what you think he is in the first place.

[Snorri1234]

OH NO! YOU'RE RIGHT! EVOLUTION IS ALL LIES! LET'S GO WORSHIP JAY'S PARTICULAR SKYDADDY INSTEAD OF THE MILLIONS OF OTHER GODS IN HISTORY!

He's not talking about evolution, he's talking about abiogenesis.

Also, I find it funny that some atheists see the fact that God has been perceived in countless different ways throughout the millennia as proof that God doesn't exist...

A.)I am not going to respond seriously to people who say shit like "rocks can't turn into organisms" in a serious way.

B.) It's not proof that God doesn't exist, it's proof that your particular deity is unlikely to be the true one. Have fun in Tartaros.

So you respond to my casual comment with a very childish outburst? I was serious, but not being formal at the same time. Please, if its not constructive, don't reply to my comments.

"an organism can't come from a rock" is an argument against the most mangled form of abiogenesis imaginable. If you're serious about it that means you have so little clue as to what most modern science is that it would be futile to argue against you.

You have less understanding than a 8year old, I simply can't be bothered.

[Lionz]

Creatures bringing forth variety through reproduction =/= everyone sharing common ancestry? Who used death and pain and blind chance to design something regardless of how we define evolution?

[AAFitz]

Creatures bringing forth variety through reproduction =/= everyone sharing common ancestry? Who used death and pain and blind chance to design something regardless of how we define evolution?

Again, death and pain are unfortunate, but nearly anyone who has truly lived, given the choice, will choose the chance at the beautiful gift of life, over eliminating pain, suffering and death, but with no chance to live.

Death and pain are simply the price of life, and since every creature on the planet chooses life when faced with death, even when it sometimes means much pain, it is quite clear that life is worth it.

You have lived. You have felt pain. You have suffered. You will die. Would you give back the gift of life you feel came from your God, simply because of those things? Is not pain, suffering and death worth the amazing gift of life?

Do you not realize that complaining about pain and death would be a slap in the face to the very creator you pretend to worship?

In fact, would life even be life without pain and suffering and death, which help us appreciate the very value of life itself?

[Lionz]

AAFitz,

Were there not followers of Him who claimed to have seen Him after dying who later became martyrs? Who dies for a lie?

Snorri,

Does someone not essentially believe that life came from a rock if they believe earth cooled down and developed a hard rocky crust about 4.6 billion years ago and believe that it rained on rocks for millions of years and turned them into soup that came alive 3 billion years ago?

[AAFitz]

AAFitz,

Were there not followers of Him who claimed to have seen Him after dying who later became martyrs? Who dies for a lie?

Many people die for a lie. People die everyday for a lie of some kind. Do you suggest that dying for a lie, means the lie becomes truth?

[Lionz]

AAFitz,

I sent one or more reply to you having to do with life and death and pain that you missed maybe. And if Adam was created in His Image, then what did blind chance have to do with it?

[Lionz]

Who has willingly died for a lie thinking that they were doing so?

[Lionz]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=118647&p=2619175#p2619175

I'm not convinced He chose to use blind chance involving death and pain and suffering to design Adam maybe, but who's complaining about pain and suffering? I'm not claiming life is not worth enduring pain and suffering and death and came across wrong perhaps. Any reason why life without pain and suffering and death would not be life?

[AAFitz]

Who has willingly died for a lie thinking that they were doing so?

well one cannot know if one died for a lie, but since many have died for different gods, one can conclude that one party died for a lie, if not both. If two people die in a war over two different Gods, which has happened since the birth of man....does not one party necessarily have to be wrong, if not both...

or is the fact that someone dies for a belief, make that belief come true? Have not countless soldiers died, for a belief they themselves did not have?

[jonesthecurl]

AAFitz,

Were there not followers of Him who claimed to have seen Him after dying who later became martyrs? Who dies for a lie?

Snorri,

Does someone not essentially believe that life came from a rock if they believe earth cooled down and developed a hard rocky crust about 4.6 billion years ago and believe that it rained on rocks for millions of years and turned them into soup that came alive 3 billion years ago?

Any suicide bomber you care to name.
People who die of drug overdoses.
People who pwersuade themselves they can drive well, when drunk.

Shall I go on?

[Lionz]

Who has WILLINGLY AND KNOWINGLY died for a lie?

What would someone dying for Islam as a result of reading the Koran have to do with someone dying for Him after seeing Him risen from the dead and after seeing Him walk on water and after seeing Him give sight to the blind?

[jonesthecurl]

So: nobody sindce the last "appearance" of Jesus can know for sure then?

[Uncle Death]

Logic dictates that there is a God!- as long as you don't understand what logic is it does.

[AAFitz]

Who has WILLINGLY AND KNOWINGLY died for a lie?

What would someone dying for Islam as a result of reading the Koran have to do with someone dying for Him after seeing Him risen from the dead and after seeing Him walk on water and after seeing Him give sight to the blind?

Its the absolute same thing. People die to perpetuate lies of their own also. Perhaps they died only because they were lying about it, and died in hopes someone would actually believe them.

Again, do you suggest that dying makes anything more true or false?

If someone kills themself because they believe something, do you believe it?

The church put many to death because they believed something other than what the church told them to believe. Does the fact that they died mean the church was wrong?

If a witch was executed for believing in witchcraft, does that mean withcraft must exist?