Americans

[haha]

SolidLuigi wrote:
know that I am not a huge fan of Bush, but a huge fan of our country

So because your a fan of your country that automaticly makes you a fan of the President, no matter what he does wrong, like blowing limbs off children in iraq?

Fed up with the UK always tagging along with the yanks in every damn war, WE REPAYED OUR DEBT. and now you guys want missiles on British soil for your "Star Wars" project

As for WW2 I firmly belive that if it was not for the Battle of britain which we won than the chances of winning the war would of been greatly reduced. You Yanks think you won it by yourself simply because you sent more men, the typical yank forgets that the Allies won the war not the Americans.

we dint win it byour self i think it was all of the allies if we dint have one of them the tides could have changed the tide easly. the only one we could have done with out is the french

[feiterman]

SolidLuigi wrote:
know that I am not a huge fan of Bush, but a huge fan of our country

So because your a fan of your country that automaticly makes you a fan of the President, no matter what he does wrong, like blowing limbs off children in iraq?

Fed up with the UK always tagging along with the yanks in every damn war, WE REPAYED OUR DEBT. and now you guys want missiles on British soil for your "Star Wars" project

As for WW2 I firmly belive that if it was not for the Battle of britain which we won than the chances of winning the war would of been greatly reduced. You Yanks think you won it by yourself simply because you sent more men, the typical yank forgets that the Allies won the war not the Americans.

Howie the UK would have lost WW2 without the Americans, and till the British do the same for America the debt is not fully repaid, and second if you believe that missiles for the star wars project is a bad idea for Britain, your wrong, all the star wars project is, is a defense program to protect Americas allies form any threat of a nuclear missile, so really you should be great full for the missiles and the defense system, because your armed forces at this time are no where near what they used to be in strength, so really all America is trying to do is protect you, because we believe you are a very valuable ally, which i believe you are.

[unriggable]

Unfortunately, way to many Americans (and many on this site) truly believe that Iraq = 9-11...as that is what they have have been spoon fed by King George and the republican right. I can't tell you how many fellow Americans have said to me that "we need to stay and fight after what they did to us".

Thankfully, this is changing and the American people are waking up to the realization that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11, the reasons given for invading were paper thin and King George is basically a blithering idiot.

When did I say Iraq = 9/11, never. I've never believed the culprits of 9/11 were in Iraq. But Iraq is not a war for oil. If you look at a timeline, it's very easy to figure out why we invaded, but it's cooler and more exciting to think that there is always a "conspiracy" or ulterior motives, when in reality the real motives are just what they are stated to be.

After 9/11, Osama Bin Laden stated that he(him and terrorists/al queda) would "not differentiate between military troops and civilians, all are enemies to him". So Bush came back and said that we(the free world) would "not differentiate between terrorists, and the government that harbors them." Iraq had and still has many terrorists in their borders, wether Saddam welcomed them, it doesn't matter, he was doing nothing to stop them. If you allow a criminal to stay in your house, even though you don't help him do the crime, as long as you don't try to stop him(unless he has you as a hostage), you are harboring.

But thats not the only reason. The US was tired of waiting so long for pointless UN sanctions which Saddam so openly defied. A man that spoke hatred of the US and other western/free countries, a dictator who had tried to expand by invading, Iran and Kuwait, a dictator who committed genocide on his own people with biological weapons. Who does this sound like? Sounds alot like Hitler, someone the world in hindsight agrees that we should have stopped a lot sooner.

The third reason is WMD's. Let me put it this way, If your own instincts/research tell you that the sky is blue, you believe it. If your brother, whom most people confide in their family, tells you that the sky is blue, then you are even more confident in your belief. Then if one of your good friends also tells you that the sky is blue, you are very confident in your belief. Your own belief = US Intelligence, Brother = UK Intelligence, Friend = Russian Intelligence. Three of the most respected powers in the world are all saying that Saddam has WMD's. What are you going to believe? I believe if we weren't delayed as long as we were with sanctions and what not, we would have caught him redhanded. Satellite images that were taken before the invasion show numerous large convoys of trucks travelling into nearby Syria.

So I see three very valid reasons to invade a country there, and I believe me and most Americans agreed because support was very high at the beginning. Not finding WMD's was a blow to morale, but instead of looking at the good of taking out a ruthless dictator and giving the people of Iraq a fighting chance, most media and the world said "Bush Lies" because there were no WMD's found. Somehow lying equates to being misinformed by three separate and trusted sources.

Many nations around the world wiped the sweat off their foreheads and let out a "phew" when they heard Saddam was out of power, because he was a threat. But then they decided to rail on America for every little thing. "America, leave Iraq" so you'd want us to cut and run, leave a nation in shambles so insurgents can gain power, or nearby hostile governments can absorb it. Were supposed to mind our business and leave Iraq, but then they want us in Darfur, talks with Korea, talks with Iran, etc. So we are supposed to mind our own business and not at the same time. A lot of countries like to say they care for the Iraqi people and thats why they want America out, but if they cared so much, you'd think they'd help our cause. If every free country moved troops into Iraq (NOT to "bail out America" or "fight Americas war" but to help the Iraqi people, and to install a free Democracy into an area that would benefit greatly from it, and be an ally to ANY free country) Iraq would be secured, it would show many nations working together for a good cause, and it would show terrorists and dictators that the free world wont stand their kind.

That's why Bush was re-elected. There was already alot of anti-Bush sentiment before the 2004 elections. But I think the American people showed that they did believe in him. Kerry was a very well spoken person, on the surface you would think he was smarter(because people base intelligence on stuttering) when in fact both went to Yale and Bush had better grades. Bush won because he stood firm on his beliefs, and what he does, he genuinely believes in. You may think what he does is wrong, but thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. Kerry on the other hand flip-flopped every chance he got depending on what people wanted to hear. I believe many people saw that as a sign of weakness.

Now before you label me as a "Bush Lover" or far right, know that I am not a huge fan of Bush, but a huge fan of our country and the Presidency itself. I spend most of my time standing up for Bush not because I like him, but because he's never given a chance. If something good happens, its because of Government, but if something bad happens, it's all on BUSH. And the name-calling and put downs is just an immature rant that media and people have fallen to. The media has no scruples anymore, each President gets railed on more and more, look at how bad Clinton got it. Next president, no matter what party, will be torn apart because that is what sells.

I also love the double standard in Backglass's statement. It's the usual argument I hear from people. On one hand the person argues about ulterior motives and how Bush and his administration are so sneaky and evil and are controlling so many things behind the scenes, like spoonfeeding people or brainwashing them to get them behind him. But then in another argument, the same person will take low blows at Bush and say hes an idiot or a dunce and hes so stupid he can't do anything. Thanks for putting both instances in one post Backglass, its a good example. Take one or the other, The Evil Mastermind Bush, or The Dumb and Simpleton Bush. You can't attack him as both.

Sorry about the long post, I wanted to put my views forward in a respectable way, took alot more text than I thought, heh.

Let me sumarize my opinions based on what you said:
1. If your enemy has no equipment wih which to attack you, he is not a threat. 2. Bush is not a masterind (he'd make an awesome friend though). Wolfowitz and Cheney and such are. 3. You do not need to love your president or your policy to love your country. Personally what I think makes America so great in comparison to the rest of the developed world is NASA. We are taking the lead in interstellar research, of course the budget is being cut for reasons that escape me.

If something good happens, its because of Government, but if something bad happens, it's all on BUSH.

4. If something good happens...we have yet to find out. Bush hasn't done much for the benefit of general America - he slowed the economy by giving tax cuts to the rich, he wiretapped, he did the patriot act, etc. By HE I mean his Administration. Not him. I gotta give him credit for helping the AIDS initiatives in Africa that he helped fund.

Kerry on the other hand flip-flopped every chance he got depending on what people wanted to hear. I believe many people saw that as a sign of weakness.

5. He changed his mind, uh, once. Of course it as on the Iraq war. The facts changed. If I told you your children died by murder, you'd look for the murderer, and then you'd find him and incarcerate him, but then you learn that your children actually drunkenly almost drove over him and he shot them in response, but you can't get the now innocent man out of jail...your opinion has changed. But it's too late, because now you're a flip flopper.

Many nations around the world wiped the sweat off their foreheads and let out a "phew" when they heard Saddam was out of power, because he was a threat.

6. Even more nations criticized us because we went in - imagine you and for some reason 190 of your friends standing at a back alley (the police are oblivious - actually they aren't there, the UN doesn't have an army). All of them except two, maybe three want you NOT to shoot this homeless guy who urinated on your dog a few days back. But you do. 95% of all nations said we were crazy to invade Iraq, and we ignored them. Pfff.

7. Well Iraq is just a waste of life, if I may say so myself. There was really no reason to go in there in the first place. However, these, there are reasons to save many lives.

[unriggable]

SolidLuigi wrote:
know that I am not a huge fan of Bush, but a huge fan of our country

So because your a fan of your country that automaticly makes you a fan of the President, no matter what he does wrong, like blowing limbs off children in iraq?

Fed up with the UK always tagging along with the yanks in every damn war, WE REPAYED OUR DEBT. and now you guys want missiles on British soil for your "Star Wars" project

As for WW2 I firmly belive that if it was not for the Battle of britain which we won than the chances of winning the war would of been greatly reduced. You Yanks think you won it by yourself simply because you sent more men, the typical yank forgets that the Allies won the war not the Americans.

we dint win it byour self i think it was all of the allies if we dint have one of them the tides could have changed the tide easly. the only one we could have done with out is the french

.

The french actually helped alot - they let paris get taken over, but they helped supply intelligence and the like about normandy to the invading allies.

[ritz627]

Guiscard and uriggable, thank you so much, lol. You both pretty much did everything I was going to do. Good job. You got him pretty good.

[Blueoctober]

SolidLuigi wrote:
know that I am not a huge fan of Bush, but a huge fan of our country

So because your a fan of your country that automaticly makes you a fan of the President, no matter what he does wrong, like blowing limbs off children in iraq?

Fed up with the UK always tagging along with the yanks in every damn war, WE REPAYED OUR DEBT. and now you guys want missiles on British soil for your "Star Wars" project

As for WW2 I firmly belive that if it was not for the Battle of britain which we won than the chances of winning the war would of been greatly reduced. You Yanks think you won it by yourself simply because you sent more men, the typical yank forgets that the Allies won the war not the Americans.

we dint win it byour self i think it was all of the allies if we dint have one of them the tides could have changed the tide easly. the only one we could have done with out is the french

.

we won the war because british people were flying american planes shooting american bullets and using american tanks.

the arsenal of democracy won the war not some island

[Guiscard]

we won the war because british people were flying american planes shooting american bullets and using american tanks.

the arsenal of democracy won the war not some island

Both the Spitfire and the Hurricane were British-made (vickers-armstrong and hawker respectively), for one.

Secondly, Britain is democracy just as much as America is. Contemporary usage of the word basically amounts to a government elected either directly or representatively by the people. You do realise America is not the only democracy, wasn't the first, won't be the last and is not by a long way the most representative or 'free'...

That 'some island' spawned your nation, gave you your language, many of your customs and traditions, your religion...

Get your head out of your arse.

[feiterman]

I have to say that there are least some people here that know what they are talking about, Guiscard good job at least you do know what your talking about, well mostly. Although America was once a British colony most of its traditions are not British, for one religion in America is very diverse so there is no way it came from Britain, in fact the pilgrims left Britain because they were persecuted because of their religion, second our customs are vastly different from from yours, considering the reason why became a separate country was to get away from the ideals that Britain held, and Britain didn't start America, it started the colonies, which kicked Britain's "arse" as you say, than the colonies became America, and for once i thank France for a job well done in a war.

[SolidLuigi]

That 'some island' spawned your nation, gave you your language, many of your customs and traditions, your religion...

Britain did not invent catholicism.

I'm not here to bad mouth Britain though, I think they are our greatest ally and I am grateful for them, I'd really love to visit Britain too, and you guys also totally kick our "arses" as far as music goes, heh. I originally started to post in this topic to defend against the people who were bad mouthing Americans as a whole and then I begin to rattle off my views on the war and Bush. And I'm sorry if people misunderstood, I don't mean to imply that America won WWII by ourselves but we were a big part, that is all I meant. Most of you make very good points, good debating.

[SolidLuigi]

Here's a good e-mail that was forwarded to me, wether you agree with it or not, its a great piece:


To Kill an American
You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.


So an Australian dentist wrote an editorial the following day to let everyone know what an American is . So they would know when they found one. (Good one, mate!!!!)


"An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani or Afghan.


An American may also be a Comanche, Cherokee, Osage, Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as native Americans.


An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim.
In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them chooses.


An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming to speak for the government and for God.


An American lives in the most prosperous land in the history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person to the pursuit of happiness.


An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need, never asking a thing in return.


When Afghanistan was over-run by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!


As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other nation to the poor in Afghanistan. Americans welcome the best of everything...the best products, the best books, the best music, the best food, the best services. But they also welcome the least.


The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty , welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.


Some of them were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001 earning a better life for their families. It's been told that the World Trade Center victims were from at least 30 different countries, cultures, and first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
< BR>
So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and other blood-thirsty tyrants in the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.

[SolidLuigi]

4. If something good happens...we have yet to find out. Bush hasn't done much for the benefit of general America

How many times has America been attacked by terrorists since 9/11? 0, that is a pretty good thing for us I believe.

5. He changed his mind, uh, once. Of course it as on the Iraq war. The facts changed.

Kerry changed his mind many many times over on the Iraq war, Saddam Hussein, our presence in the middle east etc. There are even more topics that don't have to do with the war that he's flipped flopped on like gay marriage and The Patriot Act, which he even wrote parts of. There's a difference in getting new info, realizing new angles, then changing OR flip flopping for the sake of popularity. He was for the war until he realized he might have a chance at being the Democratic candidate. And according to most of the anti-war/anti-Bush debaters on here, the facts were never there, they were "shaky at best" or false, so according to them, Kerry should have known his position from the beginning, or else it would seem he was blindly following Bush and the American majority of people that wanted to see action taken, which leads us back to Kerry just basing his views on popularity.

There is a great video timeline of all of Kerry's stances on the war and saddam. It was released by the GOP(I know everyones gonna go nuts "How can you trust anything from the GOP") but all the clips are from TV shows with their respective dates and it is Kerry himself saying it. I know there is some favorable editing in there probably, but today there are no straight shooters in the media, everyones view is skewed, I believe this is close though because they are videos of Kerry himself. Funny thing is I can't find it anywhere on the web and it's late so I'm not looking too hard. Here is a good article from the Boston Globe on Kerry's flipping history though.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editor ... ng_stands/

[howie]

:lol: Howie ... You seem to be mistaken. It wasn't the Allies "winning" the war, it was the Allies losing the war until when ? Hmm, let me think ... Oh yeah, until the U.S. came to your aid and turned it around. It is an easy thing to turn ones back on someone else when they are in trouble. It's much more harder to turn your back on someone that has come to your aid. You seem to have no problem in that respect, which is possibly one of your better qualities. Just like today, there will be ones that sit on sidelines and be critical while others do what is needed. Lucky for you and anyone else that believes in freedom, you are a minority and England as a whole recognizes the dangerous trend that is formented by radical views of world domination by terror. May you -- or maybe someone in your family -- not be on the wrong bus at the wrong time.

The Allies would not of won the war if cruical battles like the Battle of britain had not been won, it would of allowed Britain to be invaded therefore giving you no platform what so ever to win a war in Europe.

As for being in a minority you gotta be kidding me, do the American media still produce bullshit about how the British public are fully behind what your doing, there are tens of millions against what the Americans are doing in this war on terror (because iraq was a real threat to us ).

Star wars a good thing, yeah right, because we really want another cold war, you Yanks had this brilliant idea of even putting them in Poland, you really know how to wind up the Russians don't you, you do relise that American missiles in Europe could cause an arms race between you and the Russians, seems more of a provkative system then a defence system to me, on top of all that you claim it will be used to protect your nation from Iranian missiles

We repayed out debt by joining numerous wars created by your nation, paying off war payments and putting up with your arrogance and ignorance for years and ignoring our role in winning WW1 (almost single handedly in the end) and our involvement in WW2. Once Iraq and Afghan have been dealt with the last thing that this country should do is join in a war against Iran.

[alster]

Star wars a good thing, yeah right, because we really want another cold war, you Yanks had this brilliant idea of even putting them in Poland, you really know how to wind up the Russians don't you, you do relise that American missiles in Europe could cause an arms race between you and the Russians, seems more of a provkative system then a defence system to me, on top of all that you claim it will be used to protect your nation from Iranian missiles.

Dude. Without getting involved in the discussion. Just let me point out that the defensive systems to be placed in Central Europe are not a threat to the Russians. And they know it as well. The ABM-Treaty (and its logic) made sense during the Cold War. But the same arguments underpinning it cannot be used with respect to the current defense system. Apples and pears. Further, the system will protect Europe as well, not the U.S.

An arms race is unlikely, Russia and the U.S. have actually decreased their nuclear arms quite a lot since the end of the Cold War. Now, if Putin does some trash-talking due to this defense-system, well… it’s politics. It is not a bunch of serious arguments that Putin puts forward, what the Russians want is control over their neighboring countries. If they start an arms race, it’s because they choose to and want to, it would have nothing to do with the defense-system being built-up in Europe. Besides, you shouldn’t care much about the Russians. Who do you prefer to side with, free, liberal and democratic states or despotic, non-liberal states. Get over it.

[Guiscard]

[Kerry... blah blah blah

What does it matter what Kerry has done or said? He's not in power. No-one is arguing that Kerry would have been a perfect president, just that Bush is an immoral and corrupt one (although not stupid - Iraq was a very sensible foreign policy decision for hegemonic and economic reasons - just not moral ones or the ones given as the actual reasons for invasion).

[howie]

Star wars a good thing, yeah right, because we really want another cold war, you Yanks had this brilliant idea of even putting them in Poland, you really know how to wind up the Russians don't you, you do relise that American missiles in Europe could cause an arms race between you and the Russians, seems more of a provkative system then a defence system to me, on top of all that you claim it will be used to protect your nation from Iranian missiles.

Dude. Without getting involved in the discussion. Just let me point out that the defensive systems to be placed in Central Europe are not a threat to the Russians. And they know it as well. The ABM-Treaty (and its logic) made sense during the Cold War. But the same arguments underpinning it cannot be used with respect to the current defense system. Apples and pears. Further, the system will protect Europe as well, not the U.S.

An arms race is unlikely, Russia and the U.S. have actually decreased their nuclear arms quite a lot since the end of the Cold War. Now, if Putin does some trash-talking due to this defense-system, well… it’s politics. It is not a bunch of serious arguments that Putin puts forward, what the Russians want is control over their neighboring countries. If they start an arms race, it’s because they choose to and want to, it would have nothing to do with the defense-system being built-up in Europe. Besides, you shouldn’t care much about the Russians. Who do you prefer to side with, free, liberal and democratic states or despotic, non-liberal states. Get over it.

You just don't get it do you, what is it with the complete arrogance of your people that makes you think that we want these weapons on our soil, first you start off with your radars for intel, than you put some "defensive weapons" once you get them without a doubt it will be offensive weapons. Why is it in Americas interest to weaponise Europe what do you have to gain from it?
Who are you defending us from? Iran? Bullshit
Any large scale weapon set off in the UK will be done in a vender machine not by a missile.

And yes I know Putin and Russia are trying to rebuild their nation back to its old former self.

Am interested to know how many times the remaing nukes can do over life on this planet, my guess its more then 2 or 3 despite these decreases.

[Backglass]

How many times has America been attacked by terrorists since 9/11? 0, that is a pretty good thing for us I believe

How many times has OJ Simpson killed since 9-11? 0!

...but neither have to do with our current situation in Iraq.

[areon]

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty , welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

So do you support more or less immigration?

[Backglass]

So do you support more or less immigration?

I fully support Legal & Controlled immigration.

Get in line, wait your turn, pay taxes like everyone else and c'mon in!

[feiterman]

So do you support more or less immigration?

I fully support Legal & Controlled immigration.

Get in line, wait your turn, pay taxes like everyone else and c'mon in!

I agree with Backglass, as long as it is legal and controlled there is nothing wrong with it, and for those Americans who are gonna say that the immigrants steal Americans jobs, you are wrong. the reason the immigrants get the jobs is because we Americans ( I am one) have gotten to lazy, so thats why the immigrants get the jobs, because they are hard working.

[SolidLuigi]

How many times has America been attacked by terrorists since 9/11? 0, that is a pretty good thing for us I believe

How many times has OJ Simpson killed since 9-11? 0!

...but neither have to do with our current situation in Iraq.

That was my response to someone saying Bush hasn't done anything good. It had nothing to do with us being in Iraq.

[SolidLuigi]

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty , welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

So do you support more or less immigration?

It's not a matter of more or less, it's a matter of legal and illegal like others have said on here. For safety reasons, tax reasons, and just to be fair. My ancestors came over from Italy and Germany in the late 1800's/early 1900's so I am grateful for immigration because I think it only makes our nation stronger WHEN it is controlled.

[SolidLuigi]

[Kerry... blah blah blah

What does it matter what Kerry has done or said? He's not in power. No-one is arguing that Kerry would have been a perfect president, just that Bush is an immoral and corrupt one (although not stupid - Iraq was a very sensible foreign policy decision for hegemonic and economic reasons - just not moral ones or the ones given as the actual reasons for invasion).

Sorry, I know it's a little off topic but I was just replying to unriggable's statement that Kerry's only changed his mind once.

[Backglass]

How many times has America been attacked by terrorists since 9/11? 0, that is a pretty good thing for us I believe

How many times has OJ Simpson killed since 9-11? 0!

...but neither have to do with our current situation in Iraq.

That was my response to someone saying Bush hasn't done anything good. It had nothing to do with us being in Iraq.

And it also had nothing to do with Bush.

Please don't tell me that it's all because of the Homeland Security Office...the biggest money wasting joke ever invented.

Everyone! Off with your shoes!!!

[areon]

That isn't the point, there is a double standard going on right now. Businesses are encouraging Latinos to cross over illegally so that they can benefit from their labor as well as the nonsense going on right across the border. Then they want to spread a message that it's the immigrants breaking the law? Putting all the blame on the immigrants is wrong. The process to become an American citizen is in poor shape. Some are waiting a decade or more, while they are in limbo they are subject to being abused under the law. Then you get the xenophobics wanting to penalize these people for what? Deporting those working in harsh conditions, for low pay, and not benefiting from the taxes their employers dock from their pay is justified? Wake up, illegals do contribute a tax revenue. And don't say that there is any serious terrorist threat coming from them.

The situation that Europeans immigrated to the US was completely different. That wasn't controlled, today it is but not by the government.

[unriggable]

The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty , welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America.

Of course, when we have the option to let the poor mexicans into the country of the free, we don't. It took my babysitter, who is from mexico city, fiive years to get here legally.

I'm not here to bad mouth Britain though, I think they are our greatest ally and I am grateful for them, I'd really love to visit Britain too, and you guys also totally kick our "arses" as far as music goes, heh. I originally started to post in this topic to defend against the people who were bad mouthing Americans as a whole and then I begin to rattle off my views on the war and Bush. And I'm sorry if people misunderstood, I don't mean to imply that America won WWII by ourselves but we were a big part, that is all I meant. Most of you make very good points, good debating.

Artic Monkeys Lol!