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Re: ObamaCare

Postby _sabotage_ on Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:28 am

Not as I claim, I quotes, as noted, Himmelstein.

The difference between us is quite simple. You see the government as various parties acting to oppose each other and blame consequences on this party having done this or that. I see the government as a unified body. That is, regardless of individual action, the combined action of the government makes the government.

When the elite get together and "accidentally" benefit the elite, it isn't by accident.

This an be seen across the boar in all major policies.

You see left, right and center. But you think the center is on the 50 yard line and the left and right are the respective end zones. In reality, they put the center in the middle of our end zone and the left and right on the inner borders of said end zone. And all you do is scream touchdown nonstop. That's fine. But you should realize that the touchdowns they are scoring without even playing are being scored against the other team, us. You are cheering on your own defeat.

From 2002-2009, 7 out of 10 bankruptcy due to medical bills were from people with insurance . You see an issue to be tackled. I see that the insurance companies were pursuing a policy that they could not only profit from, but that could create an outcry that they can further profit from.

Not much different from the banks. The banks profit from the greatest theft in history, and this theft is then used to let them profit more. Same with drugs, nonregulation of known toxins, energy, etc.

The pattern is stark, but they pander to your emotions and you fall for it every time.

The lesson is simple, if you are big enough to create a substantial problem, the government will give you even more money. Why? Because the government would cease to exist the day that there are no problems to solve. Those who help create large problems, help create government control and therefore are rewarded by e government.

You can continue to view the government as various entities vying for various policies, but it is simply not true. To suggest that the republicans were really opposed to the ACA is not justified by them choosing Romney as their candidate, the only person who couldn't point to the failure of the Massachusetts and couldn't rally oppose the ACA because of his governorship of Massachusetts.

The fact that you think you are free, and that others envy your freedom is testament to how brainwashed out are. The US spends far more, and does far more against your freedom than any other country on Earth.

The fact that you think you have a choice is testament to your disconnection from reality. There has been no choice in major policy for a very long time. You may think there is. McCain is a warmonger and Obama promises peace, and yet how truly different would their policies have been. Even at 9% approval for attacking Syria, Obama was intent on pushing ahead.


Think what you like, it was the Tea Party's fault. This concept is what is burying the middle class. Its amusing how much power you grant the Tea Party and how much slack they take when in fact it is nothing more than a mirage, an enemy at the gates to rally against.

Take the perspective of the soldier with his back to the river. The enemy has them outnumbered, the high ground and room to maneuver. But the soldiers with their back to the river prevail. They are triumphant and their general gets eternal fame.

Then take the perspective of the general. Know in he is outnumbered, he intentionally places his soldiers back to the wall to make them fight or die.

This is not a random act, but a standardized play from the generals playbook. The soldiers think that their backs were against the river by accident, but the general placed them there on purpose.

Let's look at another standard play. When the troops get too comfortable, put them into a situation of discomfort and then blame the enemy. The troops will then do as they are told.

Who created the discomfort in this situation? The main thing that you and other supporters of the ACA contend is that it takes care of the problems that insurers had been creating. The problem, that they weren't covering people, and people who were covered, weren't covered, pro fitted them and created the discomfort. They then used the discomfort to profit themselves again.

An age old play being replayed. The only difference is that propaganda has gotten so good that we don't even need to point to an enemy anymore. The enemy has somehow become the friend.

Most of the threats to our health are perpetrated by the very government that you clammer to help you. You have the soldiers perspective and ignore the fact that it was your general who placed yo in the position in the fist place and denounce those who try to point it out or oppose it.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby mrswdk on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:29 am

When GITIC ran out of money the Chinese government left it to collapse. When Western corporations run shitty, inefficient business models, their governments prop them up.

Who are the real socialists?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:03 pm

jbrettlip wrote:went back 2 pages of this and I am so glad I left this forum "debate". Same old shit. People for it think it will end in utopia for all, people against it can do math and understand economics. You won't convince the other side, and the supporters have more time than the opponents to discuss this due to not having jobs.


lol, that's a pretty good summary!
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby jimboston on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:39 am

This thread is still active? Get over it!

I'm not a fan... but this ship has sailed.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:19 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Not as I claim, I quotes, as noted, Himmelstein.

Quoting an opinion does not make it a more valid opinion. You referred to it, took "ownership". It is up to you to defend the words or not. I am conversing with you, not Himmelstein.

Anyway, I have one question--
What solution do your propose?

See, anybody can voice criticism. MOST things,particularly legislation, are imperfect. The problem is coming up with solutions...ones that would actually work better.
Last edited by PLAYER57832 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:20 pm

mrswdk wrote:When GITIC ran out of money the Chinese government left it to collapse. When Western corporations run shitty, inefficient business models, their governments prop them up.

Who are the real socialists?

:lol: =D>
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:47 pm

I would eliminate federal funding and regulation and move it to the states. I would leave the federal government in charge of providing a platform for the assessment of healthcare in preventing future cost. I would immediately assess the areas we having been following behind in, especially in mental health.

I would also eliminate the federal student loan, let medicine from the netherworld compete locally, create a use it or lose it patent policy, and get my hands off of medicare/caid.

On a state level I would provide medical students with an apprenticeship program to allow them to earn their position, make a first responder unit out of our pharmacies, which can offer quick diagnosis, point you in the right direction and sell you some medicine that requires prescriptions. I would insist all pharmaceutical sales have 10% of sales directed to creating support groups, and providing them some funding for the sharing of information, mutual support and means of unified response. This would provide the sufferees a myriad of benefits.

My state would be enabled to service its own healthcare issues, which in turn can be weighed against the other states in competition and therefore there are few barriers to improvement.

I would decrease the chance that a few monoliths grow so powerful that they defeat the system, while creating a means to guide funding, offer reward and focus on limiting the need to service the issues. It should significantly reduce cost while improving overall healthcare.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:06 pm

jimboston wrote:I'm not a fan... but this ship has sailed.


Obama kept delaying it, so we had to keep posting here.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:21 pm

for the past 250 years health care has been an improvement in america.

i'd say our biggest concern is our debt. once you fix that, free healthcare and ponies for all the kids.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:43 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jimboston wrote:I'm not a fan... but this ship has sailed.


Obama kept delaying it, so we had to keep posting here.


I'm forced to concur. The President is not doing a very good job making it look like this is over.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:01 pm

If you like your healthcare debate, you can keep your healthcare debate.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:12 am

_sabotage_ wrote:I would eliminate federal funding and regulation and move it to the states.
Medical care largely is, that is part of why we don't have a national healthcare system, or even really national insurance.

What specific changes do you propose and why do you think it would be better?


_sabotage_ wrote:I would leave the federal government in charge of providing a platform for the assessment of healthcare in preventing future cost. I would immediately assess the areas we having been following behind in, especially in mental health.
Obamacare does some of this, but a lot was eliminated by the right wing... remember the whole "death panel" bit. That was actually a very NEEDED attempt to allow doctors to fully discuss end of life issues, and to beging looking at evidence and options so that people could have better advice at that difficult time... but instead of looking at the reality, the right just decided to twist it into a campaign point to our detriment. (and the left did not do much to fight effectively)

_sabotage_ wrote:I would also eliminate the federal student loan,
This has nothing at all to do with Obamacare or medical insurance
_sabotage_ wrote:let medicine from the netherworld compete locally, create a use it or lose it patent policy,

How do you expect this to work?

Competition is oftgen thrown out as a panacea for medicine expenses, but medicine is not like other commodities. Also, insurance IS operated at the state level and, sometimes locally. In fact, one thing seen in the exchanges is policies with limited local networks. in other words,Obamacare moves us TOWARD what you are saying you want, not away.

_sabotage_ wrote:and get my hands off of medicare/caid.
So you think poor people and the disabled should just go without care? Or how do you propose their caer is paid for?

_sabotage_ wrote:On a state level I would provide medical students with an apprenticeship program to allow them to earn their position,

You mean like residency programs already required?
_sabotage_ wrote:make a first responder unit out of our pharmacies, which can offer quick diagnosis, point you in the right direction and sell you some medicine that requires prescriptions.
So you want the sales agents to be diagnosticians? That might work for a few very simple situations, though I have to say a lot of that is already covered by over-the-counter medicines,
The real trouble is that it requires tests to know what medicine is appropriate for what situation. There IS a real reason doctors have such long training periods. There are some ways that might be shortened, but it would be specific for various illnesses and situations... sort of like we saw the emergence of paramedics and EMTs to take care of emergency situations because doctors could not get their quickly enough.
_sabotage_ wrote:I would insist all pharmaceutical sales have 10% of sales directed to creating support groups, and providing them some funding for the sharing of information, mutual support and means of unified response. This would provide the sufferees a myriad of benefits.
An interesting idea. Sounds similar to the limit to insurance profits already specified in the Obamacare law, but more specific. Details?

.[/quote]
_sabotage_ wrote:My state would be enabled to service its own healthcare issues, which in turn can be weighed against the other states in competition and therefore there are few barriers to improvement.
How would this differ from the current situation? Or differ from what existed before the AFCA

.[/quote]
_sabotage_ wrote:I would decrease the chance that a few monoliths grow so powerful that they defeat the system, while creating a means to guide funding, offer reward and focus on limiting the need to service the issues. It should significantly reduce cost while improving overall healthcare.

Nice idea, but how would you accomplish this? See, many would argue that Obamacare was an attempt to head in this direction, imperfect, but headng closer than the previous system did.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:07 pm

The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:12 pm

Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.


No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:20 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.


No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.


I giggled.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.


No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.


I giggled.


I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:25 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.


No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.


I giggled.


I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.


I would say you're being accurate and have no problem with what you typed. I giggled because you offered no further comment. If we take the CBO statements as accurate (which, honestly, is the biggest problem with those statements - they probably are not accurate because they are predictions), that's pretty bad news.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:27 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:The CBO states that 2.3 million full time jobs will be lost over the next 10 years due to Obamacare. I guess all those "Republican talking points" were actually the truth all along.


No it doesn't. It says that the economy will be able to support 2.3 million fewer full-time workers in 10 years, compared to what would have happened without the law.


I giggled.


I'm not just being contrarian. There's a big difference between people losing jobs, and not as many jobs being created.


I would say you're being accurate and have no problem with what you typed. I giggled because you offered no further comment. If we take the CBO statements as accurate (which, honestly, is the biggest problem with those statements - they probably are not accurate because they are predictions), that's pretty bad news.


No it's not.

“The estimated reduction stems almost entirely from a net decline in the amount of labor that workers choose to supply, rather than from a net drop in businesses’ demand for labor, so it will appear almost entirely as a reduction in labor force participation and in hours worked relative to what would have occurred otherwise rather than as an increase in unemployment (that is, more workers seeking but not finding jobs) or underemployment (such as part-time workers who would prefer to work more hours per week).”
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:34 pm

Yeah, it's definitely bad.

One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)

Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.


Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.

EDIT - The more I think about the way the Washington Post has published this particular piece, the more outraged I become. This is why I stopped reading political crap. Thanks a lot Night Strike and Mets. Thanks a lot.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:39 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Yeah, it's definitely bad.

One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)

Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.


Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.

EDIT - The more I think about the way the Washington Post has published this particular piece, the more outraged I become. This is why I stopped reading political crap. Thanks a lot Night Strike and Mets. Thanks a lot.


They wouldn't have to publish it that way if people would stop making outright false claims about CBO reports.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:47 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Yeah, it's definitely bad.

One big issue: the health insurance subsidies in the law. That’s a substantial benefit that decreases as people earn more money, so at a certain point, a person has to choose between earning more money or continuing to get the maximum help with health insurance payments. In other words, people might work longer and harder, but actually earn no more, or earn even less, money. That is a disincentive to work. (The same thing happens when people qualify for food stamps or other social services.)

Thus, some people might decide to work part-time, not full time, in order to keep getting health-care subsidies. Thus, they are reducing their supply of labor to the market. Other people near retirement age might decide they no longer need to hold onto their job just because it provides health insurance, and they also leave the work force.


Less labor supply does not mean less people; it means more people not working and receiving government benefits.

EDIT - The more I think about the way the Washington Post has published this particular piece, the more outraged I become. This is why I stopped reading political crap. Thanks a lot Night Strike and Mets. Thanks a lot.


They wouldn't have to publish it that way if people would stop making outright false claims about CBO reports.


Here's my version of the timeline of events:

- CBO publishes report indicating that there will be less supply of jobs, placing emphasis that this does not mean UNEMPLOYMENT, but neglecting to mention this means MORE PEOPLE ARE RELIANT UPON THE GOVERNMENT THAN WE ORIGINALLY THOUGHT, SO IT'S GOING TO COST MORE
- Conservatives focus on 2 million jobs "lost"
- Washington Post publishes article focusing on the stupid conservative argument
- The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost

Hence... thegreekdog is outraged!
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:- The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost


... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:01 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:- The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost


... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?


Consdering the number the CBO estimated originally is a third of their new estimate... yeah, I do. Sigh... there already appears to be a growing trend of people not saving money and now we have "hey, I'll work less because government." The end result is higher debt, higher taxes, or both.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:- The fact that more people will be relying on government is lost


... we're talking about the Affordable Care Act. Do you think anyone really missed that more people will be relying on government?


Consdering the number the CBO estimated originally is a third of their new estimate... yeah, I do.


As you pointed out, that's more likely to be due to the difficulty of making such projections than anything else.

Sigh... there already appears to be a growing trend of people not saving money and now we have "hey, I'll work less because government." The end result is higher debt, higher taxes, or both.


Yeah, but presumably we get better healthcare as a result. That's something, right?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby patches70 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:21 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Yeah, but presumably we get better healthcare as a result. That's something, right?


And what are you basing that presumption on? Projections that you acknowledge are difficult to make?

Before Obamacare, some probably got good healthcare, others not so good, maybe.

After Obamacare, some probably will get good healthcare, others not so good.

The only thing that changes is, well, probably nothing. Oh, except that now after Obamacare insurance companies benefit from government use of intimidation, coercion and force to make people buy their product. That's something, right?

The CBO is notorious for how badly they project costs of various policies and yet if those sure to be wrong projections make those policies seem better than they will be/are in reality then people happily cite the CBO. When the CBO inevitably is proven completely wrong do people rethink their position? Confirmation bias tends to not let people do that.

CBO is great for altering the perception of reality I guess. God pity anyone who would rely on their projections to make informed decisions.
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