Evolution vs Creation-Comparing each View

[Balsiefen]

I would just like to point out here that absolutely no one (well, mabye a couple of peasents in yorkshire but they dont get into history books) believed the earth was flat in columbus' time. columbus was ridiculed becauce, while scientists had calculated the curvature of the earth (pretty accurately as we now know), columbus dissagreed with them.

Columbus set sail to prove that japan was only as far away as america turned out to be. He got fundding from the spanish because the portugese had blocked off the valuble trade routes to the east. He was ridiculed because people who knew the curvature of the earth said he would knever survive the journy over an ocian that went from spain to japan.

Not to be a jerk and continue the circle, but you can't really prove that it's true without going back in time.

But Guiscard's idea is good. It makes sense. Propaganda has been used for hundreds of years to make people look more heroic.

Not really, it is extreamly well documented from all sides You can prove its true just as much as you can prove the magna carta was signed or that hitler broke the treaty of versailles. its a historical fact. i dont know about what guiscard has said but i would be very suprised if it wasn't true.

Finally, when he landed, he thaught he was in the indies, and called the people he met indians. We still call his islands the west indies now.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

It was further evidence to you to show that Columbus thaught the earth was round.

Anyway, sorry about diverting the topic, from creationism. you can get back to it now

[Carebian Knight]

Caribean Knight

You dont know if there is a God
You dont know if he created hatred ( maybe he has a dark sense of humour )
There is probably as more chance of the earth being the plaything of a group of ( rather more inteligent ) cosmic teenagers then there is of it having been created by your God.
You have your faith and thats great if it works for you but dont tell us that God said this,God meant that because you just dont know so its pure piffle !

Your wrong, I do know there is a God, I'm surprised you guys can deny it. Just because I can't see him does not mean he doesn't exist. I do know that he didn't create hatred. Teenagers aren't smart enough anyway, even if they are rather more intelligent. When did I say God said it so it must be true, again me and Wicked have limited our use of saying the Bible said so, it must be true. I think the first time I used the Bible was in my post a few up, when I said it tells us that mankind brought hatred, despair and the other stuff, on itself from curiousity.

[comic boy]

Caribean Knight

You dont know if there is a God
You dont know if he created hatred ( maybe he has a dark sense of humour )
There is probably as more chance of the earth being the plaything of a group of ( rather more inteligent ) cosmic teenagers then there is of it having been created by your God.
You have your faith and thats great if it works for you but dont tell us that God said this,God meant that because you just dont know so its pure piffle !

Your wrong, I do know there is a God, I'm surprised you guys can deny it. Just because I can't see him does not mean he doesn't exist. I do know that he didn't create hatred. Teenagers aren't smart enough anyway, even if they are rather more intelligent. When did I say God said it so it must be true, again me and Wicked have limited our use of saying the Bible said so, it must be true. I think the first time I used the Bible was in my post a few up, when I said it tells us that mankind brought hatred, despair and the other stuff, on itself from curiousity.

No I am correct
You dont know these things you simply believe them to be so - big difference !

[Neoteny]

Thank you Neoteny, this post is one of the best so far. You didn't insult anyone, you didn't use stupid sources as a fall back. If I am correct you sort of comprimised, you said that evolution is believed because creationism has no scientific proof to back it, I agree, most of the arguement for creationism comes from disproving evolution and mostly running on faith. I agree 100%. That's why everyone needs to stop asking us where the proof is, you should know the answer to that. There is no proof that supports creationism, at least scientific wise. That doesn't mean that creationism isn't true. It means that we can't sit down and say, this proves that creationism is true. However we can sit down and say, this proves evolution wrong, and leads toward the possibility of creationism being true. Thank you Neoteny for coming to somewhat of a compromise.

I suppose it was somewhat of a compromise. I intended my agnosticism in the same way as I'm agnostic about the tooth fairy. That doesn't mean I lend it any credibility, but if someone gave me good evidence to believe in the tooth fairy, I would. I'm glad you are acute enough to recognize the lack of evidence for creationism, but my respect for empirical thought still leads me to believe that those opinions represent a faulty ideology. And so far, I haven't seen any evidence against evolution (then again, we have kinda strayed off topic for awhile ).

Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'm happy that I don't come across as a total prick. I will be the first to admit that I can be condescending at times and know it's one of my faults... sarcasm is so hard to hold back. But when I get caught up in the passion of defending my ideals (scientific integrity in particular) I can be a bit of an ass. Just let me know if it happens, and I'll apologize. But I probably won't take it back lol.

[Neoteny]

Who's to say that our 2nd chromosome doesn't just form weird because of something that happened hundreds of years ago.

The PBS documentary I mentioned a little while ago had a pretty good review of this...

Basically, at the end of every chromosome is a stretch of DNA called a telomere. Telomeres are also part of some hypotheses about aging that are an interesting read. Somewhere in the chromosome is a patch of DNA called a centromere. When chromosomes replicate they remain attached at the centromere. Some of you might be familiar with the x shape that chromosomes take after replication. The center of the x has the two centromeres bound together, and the top and bottom of the x would be the telomeres. A chromosome not bound would look like this: t-c-t where t is a telomere, - is DNA that is unimportant for our discussion, and c is a centromere.

So, the question is, why, if monkeys and humans have a common ancestor, do they have one more chromosome than us? This would be a major hurdle for evolutionary theory if no explanation could be found for it. It was expected that two chromosomes that stayed unchanged in monkeys fused together in humans. What whould that look like? If a tolomere fused end to end, logically, there would be a chromosome that looked like this t-c-tt-c-t. Two centromeres. So, geneticists looked and found them on our chromosome 2 (the numbering is pretty largely incidental... it is the second largest chromosome. Of course, the fusion increased the size quite a bit). If it were not found, evolutionary theory could have been ruined. Instead, evolutionary theory has been strengthed because a testable prediction was not only made, but verified.

Huzzah!!!

[unriggable]

But Guiscard's idea is good. It makes sense. Propaganda has been used for hundreds of years to make people look more heroic.

Jesus Christ.

[Bavarian Raven]

Why can't a teenager be smart enough, just because he does not have a fancy degree does not make someone stupid.

ex: During the Korean war a doctor and his medical aid were in the field, the doctor was killed. The aid assumed the doctors identity. Once back from the war he began reading everything he could about doctoring and with his prior medical aid knowledge was given a job in a hospital. By the time someone actually found out what he had done he was the head of an entire hospital in the USA. But they fired him because he did not have a fancy degree yet they did not fire the countless doctors HE had trained...

this helps prove my point that just because you haven't studied something in a collage or the such doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about...so don't attach age to knowledge...

[unriggable]

Your wrong, I do know there is a God, I'm surprised you guys can deny it. Just because I can't see him does not mean he doesn't exist. I do know that he didn't create hatred. Teenagers aren't smart enough anyway, even if they are rather more intelligent. When did I say God said it so it must be true, again me and Wicked have limited our use of saying the Bible said so, it must be true. I think the first time I used the Bible was in my post a few up, when I said it tells us that mankind brought hatred, despair and the other stuff, on itself from curiousity.

That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain.

[Bavarian Raven]

Posted: 17 Nov 2007 23:15 Post subject:
Carebian Knight wrote:
Your wrong, I do know there is a God, I'm surprised you guys can deny it. Just because I can't see him does not mean he doesn't exist. I do know that he didn't create hatred. Teenagers aren't smart enough anyway, even if they are rather more intelligent. When did I say God said it so it must be true, again me and Wicked have limited our use of saying the Bible said so, it must be true. I think the first time I used the Bible was in my post a few up, when I said it tells us that mankind brought hatred, despair and the other stuff, on itself from curiousity.


That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain

so true, by your definition and lack of evidence Carebian Knight I could be the god...

[Backglass]

Your wrong, I do know there are Leprechauns, I'm surprised you guys can deny them. Just because I can't see them does not mean they do not exist. I do know that they didn't create the gold coins they carry in their pots-o-gold.

[Stopper]

Why can't a teenager be smart enough, just because he does not have a fancy degree does not make someone stupid.

ex: During the Korean war a doctor and his medical aid were in the field, the doctor was killed. The aid assumed the doctors identity. Once back from the war he began reading everything he could about doctoring and with his prior medical aid knowledge was given a job in a hospital. By the time someone actually found out what he had done he was the head of an entire hospital in the USA. But they fired him because he did not have a fancy degree yet they did not fire the countless doctors HE had trained...

this helps prove my point that just because you haven't studied something in a collage or the such doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about...so don't attach age to knowledge...

If Luns and I are elected, no doctors will need "qualifications" or "credentials" in order to practice medicine.

This will ease recruitment supply problems, and stop the unfair situation where developing countries lose the majority of their trained medical professionals to developed countries.

Vote Luns!

[Snorri1234]

VOTE LUNS!

[Chris7He]

I'm tired of talking about Columbus because we are going in circles. I believe the above quote was the point of the whole Columbus ordeal. In response: you are right in that we can't "prove" evolution and we can't "prove" the existence of god. The reliability of scientific theory based on the fact that you aren't trying to prove anything. You are in fact trying to disprove your hypothesis. The fact that evolution has stood up to this for over 150 years says something about its veracity. Germ theory, relativity theory, and quantum theory are all newer theories that are currently undergoing the same scrutiny, as are older theories of gravitational theory and various other physical, chemical, and biological theories. No one has demonstrated an instance where apples fall up out of trees (without some human created mechanism at least) so we still hold the theory to be true, even if it isn't "proven." Evolutionary theory follows the same concepts.

Creationism is unfalsifiable, similar to the god hypothesis, in the respect that you can't make experiments to disprove it. If you can't disprove it, that doesn't make it right, it just makes it not science. Evolution is a falsifiable theory. Scientists know what would be needed to falsify it: if a valid example of irreducible complexity were found, or if fossils were consistently found in wrong geological stratum without any explanation for why they are there are two examples. Neither of these have been demonstrated. Additionally, the rise of newer fields in biology, particularly molecular genetics, were in prime position to upset evolutionary theory. If genetics didn't confirm evolutionary theory, evolution would have had to of been thrown out. Instead, they complemented each other beautifully.

Columbus undertook a scientific endeavor. By falling off the earth, he would have been proving "round-earth" theory wrong. By not falling off, he strengthened round-earth theory, leaving it to be reinforced by Magellen. Finally, satellites just give us more data to work with. Evolution, like round-earth theory, has been supported by all available evidence.

Thank you Neoteny, this post is one of the best so far. You didn't insult anyone, you didn't use stupid sources as a fall back. If I am correct you sort of comprimised, you said that evolution is believed because creationism has no scientific proof to back it, I agree, most of the arguement for creationism comes from disproving evolution and mostly running on faith. I agree 100%. That's why everyone needs to stop asking us where the proof is, you should know the answer to that. There is no proof that supports creationism, at least scientific wise. That doesn't mean that creationism isn't true. It means that we can't sit down and say, this proves that creationism is true. However we can sit down and say, this proves evolution wrong, and leads toward the possibility of creationism being true. Thank you Neoteny for coming to somewhat of a compromise.

41 Pages and still the only argument for Creationism is ' The Bible says so ' DOH DOH DOH

I doubt you have even read this thread all the way through, me and wicked have not used the bible as a basis for everything, in fact I doubt we have used it for half of the stuff we've said.

I would just like to point out here that absolutely no one (well, mabye a couple of peasents in yorkshire but they dont get into history books) believed the earth was flat in columbus' time. columbus was ridiculed becauce, while scientists had calculated the curvature of the earth (pretty accurately as we now know), columbus dissagreed with them.

Columbus set sail to prove that japan was only as far away as america turned out to be. He got fundding from the spanish because the portugese had blocked off the valuble trade routes to the east. He was ridiculed because people who knew the curvature of the earth said he would knever survive the journy over an ocian that went from spain to japan.

Not to be a jerk and continue the circle, but you can't really prove that it's true without going back in time.

But Guiscard's idea is good. It makes sense. Propaganda has been used for hundreds of years to make people look more heroic.

Finally, when he landed, he thaught he was in the indies, and called the people he met indians. We still call his islands the west indies now.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this.

What about Genetics? Damn it! We've descended from primates! Chimpanzees and Gorillas and Monkeys have twenty-four chromosomes to our twenty-three, but Evolution theorizes that chromosomes bond when we evolve further.

Wallah! Our second chromosome has evidence of being merged. There are two centromeres on it and only one is active. Thus proving that we are an evolved species. Creationism is shit and Intelligent Design is basically God replaced with "Intelligent Agent".

Who's to say that our 2nd chromosome doesn't just form weird because of something that happened hundreds of years ago.

God did not create us. Why would he create such hatred and destruction and evil? It's paradoxical! Evolution explains our existence much better! We adapted to our environment better than our Neanderthal counterparts and therefore we were able to outcompete them through natural selection.

It's annoying when people say that you can't accuse science because you haven't studied it. It's even more annoying when someone else comes along in the same argument and talks about God and the Bible when they don't even know what they are talking about. Just to inform you a little bit, God didn't creat all the hatred, destruction and evil, mankind brought it on themselves because of our curiousity.

Why would God allow us to bring pain and fear upon ourselves? Why would he let such suffering happen? I'm not trying to question God's existence. I'm only trying question his "creation" of man. I feel that God didn't make and is just a divine guide that indirectly affects us towards a brighter path.

Why would chromosome 2 deform because of something that happened a few hundred years ago? The chromosome is clearly a merging of two chromosomes, which supports Evolution over creationism or intelligent design. intelligent design was an attempt (in good faith, but was turned astray) to drive a wedge into the materialistic philosophy that God didn't create man.

The philosophy that God didn't create man leads to the belief that we can do whatever we want. They tried to make the world a better place, but they also created fundementalists (Christian extremists). intelligent design was an attempt to redefine science.

creationism and intelligent design are not Science because they do not raise further questions and does not have any reasonable evidence to support it. Of course, this doesn't disprove it but proves that there's a 99.9999 percent chance that it isn't right.

[Snorri1234]

Dude, god works in mysterious ways.

[unriggable]

Dude, god works in mysterious ways.

Echoed by stoners around the world.

[Carebian Knight]

Why can't a teenager be smart enough, just because he does not have a fancy degree does not make someone stupid.

ex: During the Korean war a doctor and his medical aid were in the field, the doctor was killed. The aid assumed the doctors identity. Once back from the war he began reading everything he could about doctoring and with his prior medical aid knowledge was given a job in a hospital. By the time someone actually found out what he had done he was the head of an entire hospital in the USA. But they fired him because he did not have a fancy degree yet they did not fire the countless doctors HE had trained...

this helps prove my point that just because you haven't studied something in a collage or the such doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about...so don't attach age to knowledge...

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about degrees. I'm not attaching age to knowledge, I'm attaching maturity to knowledge. There is no teenager in the world that is mature 100% of the time. When I said smart, I didn't necessarily mean brain power, I'm sorry it came out that way. I was stuck on your subject of intelligent teens.

That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain.

Spoken like a true non-believer. God does talk, you just have to be tuned to the right station, you can't say he doesn't do anything either you just have to watch the signs. You can ask anyone that knows me, believer or non-believer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my brain.

Bavarian Raven: You misunderstood my point.

Backglass: Quit showing your immaturity, of course their are leprechauns, everyone knows they don't make their own gold coins, geez.

Why would God allow us to bring pain and fear upon ourselves? Why would he let such suffering happen? I'm not trying to question God's existence. I'm only trying question his "creation" of man. I feel that God didn't make and is just a divine guide that indirectly affects us towards a brighter path.

Again, spoken like a true non-believer. If you want to talk about God and the Bible, study up on them a little bit. He doesn't want to allow us to bring the pain and fear upon ourselves, it is our punishment for not obeying him. Same as your parents disciplining you, they don't want to do it, but they know it will help you down the road.

[Guiscard]

Again, spoken like a true non-believer. If you want to talk about God and the Bible, study up on them a little bit. He doesn't want to allow us to bring the pain and fear upon ourselves, it is our punishment for not obeying him. Same as your parents disciplining you, they don't want to do it, but they know it will help you down the road.

No shit. I think he's referring to the omni-benevolant God paradox. He is all loving yet allowed my grandfather to die from an agonising heart attack.

[Carebian Knight]

Again, spoken like a true non-believer. If you want to talk about God and the Bible, study up on them a little bit. He doesn't want to allow us to bring the pain and fear upon ourselves, it is our punishment for not obeying him. Same as your parents disciplining you, they don't want to do it, but they know it will help you down the road.

No shit. I think he's referring to the omni-benevolant God paradox. He is all loving yet allowed my grandfather to die from an agonising heart attack.

You need to re-read

[Beastly]

Everything Evolves.... God created Evolution!

[Carebian Knight]

Possibly, but not in the sense that the above people think.

[Guiscard]

Again, spoken like a true non-believer. If you want to talk about God and the Bible, study up on them a little bit. He doesn't want to allow us to bring the pain and fear upon ourselves, it is our punishment for not obeying him. Same as your parents disciplining you, they don't want to do it, but they know it will help you down the road.

No shit. I think he's referring to the omni-benevolant God paradox. He is all loving yet allowed my grandfather to die from an agonising heart attack.

You need to re-read

And I think you do ti. The problem of evil is being discussed in the Jesus Freaks thread currently, if you want more info.

[comic boy]

Everything Evolves.... God created Evolution!

That is the line that sensible Christians take because it does not compromise their faith and allows the Scientific thought process to continue unhindered by stuff and nonsense. Why fundamentalists have to stick to their concept of literal creationism is beyond me because it simply holds them up to ridicule.

[Snorri1234]

That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain.

Spoken like a true non-believer. God does talk, you just have to be tuned to the right station, you can't say he doesn't do anything either you just have to watch the signs. You can ask anyone that knows me, believer or non-believer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my brain.

Spoken like a true believer. Instead of giving a good argument, you just claim we're not looking or listening right and don't allow God to communicate with us.

[Chris7He]

Why can't a teenager be smart enough, just because he does not have a fancy degree does not make someone stupid.

ex: During the Korean war a doctor and his medical aid were in the field, the doctor was killed. The aid assumed the doctors identity. Once back from the war he began reading everything he could about doctoring and with his prior medical aid knowledge was given a job in a hospital. By the time someone actually found out what he had done he was the head of an entire hospital in the USA. But they fired him because he did not have a fancy degree yet they did not fire the countless doctors HE had trained...

this helps prove my point that just because you haven't studied something in a collage or the such doesn't mean you don't know what you are talking about...so don't attach age to knowledge...

Nowhere in my post did I say anything about degrees. I'm not attaching age to knowledge, I'm attaching maturity to knowledge. There is no teenager in the world that is mature 100% of the time. When I said smart, I didn't necessarily mean brain power, I'm sorry it came out that way. I was stuck on your subject of intelligent teens.

That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain.

Spoken like a true non-believer. God does talk, you just have to be tuned to the right station, you can't say he doesn't do anything either you just have to watch the signs. You can ask anyone that knows me, believer or non-believer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my brain.

Bavarian Raven: You misunderstood my point.

Backglass: Quit showing your immaturity, of course their are leprechauns, everyone knows they don't make their own gold coins, geez.

Why would God allow us to bring pain and fear upon ourselves? Why would he let such suffering happen? I'm not trying to question God's existence. I'm only trying question his "creation" of man. I feel that God didn't make and is just a divine guide that indirectly affects us towards a brighter path.

Again, spoken like a true non-believer. If you want to talk about God and the Bible, study up on them a little bit. He doesn't want to allow us to bring the pain and fear upon ourselves, it is our punishment for not obeying him. Same as your parents disciplining you, they don't want to do it, but they know it will help you down the road.

Is that why millions of Jews were murdered and most of the German officers escaped their just desserts, because they knew important information and technology about making missiles.

Why would millions of innocents die for something that others did. I imagine an onery fatass bastard looking at the paper and laughing when he reads about a suicide bombing. When does that fat bastard get his desserts?

Life is unfair and therefore, because God is NOT perfect or he does NOT directly INTERFERE with the events on Earth. I do believe in God and read a section of the Bible (not consecutively, skipping around). I believe God is responsible for the creation of the Universe and therefore indirectly the human race. I believe him more as a scientist and a loving father (a scientist who through experiments, by generating different Universes in an experiment decides what is best for us in this one before scrapping the plan in this one and moving onto the next.)

[unriggable]

That's really sad. You know there is a god, yet he doesn't do anything, he doesn't say anything, he doesn't show up, he doesn't do shit. Either that or he isn't actually there. The fact that a book written, interpreted and translated by people speaks for itself. It's not a god you worship, it's the bloated ego that blocks the facts from reaching your brain.

Spoken like a true non-believer. God does talk, you just have to be tuned to the right station, you can't say he doesn't do anything either you just have to watch the signs. You can ask anyone that knows me, believer or non-believer, there is absolutely nothing wrong with my brain.

Does he talk? Do you hear him speak? Why would it be in English? If its not words you hear, how do you know its god? This is the same load of bullshit which claims that the sun stopped in the sky at one point. Literally. Impossible.