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Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

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Postby vtmarik on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:13 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:This is interesting. Once again let me apologize for getting you all wrong, but you've got to admit that from most of your posts one could never have guessed, for instance, that you believe "all you need is faith."

So, if you don't mind my asking, and if CoffeeCream doesn't mind me hijacking his thread a little (though I think this is relevant) Why do you believe what you believe? And the God you believe exists, since he/it is evidently not the same as we Christians believe, what is he like? I'm not being facetious or sarcastic at all. I'm curious, and I think it can shed light on the discussion.


Well, with all the various ideas, pantheons, and conceptualizations of God, gods, and goddesses; it seems the most reasonable.

Unfortunately, I cannot describe what he is "like" anymore than I can define what He is directly. I've never met the man face to face, so I don't know his personality. He seems to be supremely detached, but funny. He also seems to be benevolent to a fault.

I believe that the God I believe in is the same God that you believe in, but without all the pomp, circumstance, and psychodrama.

He's just a cosmic guy who created us. If He wanted something in return, I'm certain He would have created us in the capacity to give Him something that he had trouble getting. Being a God, it's probably not hard for him to get love and/or fear from a population of lesser beings. It's also not hard for Him to get stories and religions made about Him. So why do we bother? Because, in my opinion, 99% of people out there have missed the point entirely.

God is not about sin, death, redemption, and abstaining from all things material and/or pleasurable because of some arcane system of morality-based laws. He's about enjoying the things He created. God made us this planet, our senses, our free will, and our pleasures. He's not the type of being to then make us all reject it on the basis that it's the "good" thing to do. Such a thing would be a colossal waste of time and resources.

Bottom line: If He wanted a bunch of drone-like worshipers who reject all that is "sinful" even though He created those things, He would have made more angels. The stories about Lucifer's fall and all that are human-made theater to get people to come in. If all Church ever told you was "It's all cool, just don't do anything unrighteous or mean," how often would they be able to pack the pews?

It's the old adage, "If it bleeds it leads." Why write about how God is good, loves us all unconditionally, and has created this paradise for us; when you could write about how he loves us in spite of our faults, and how we're all wretches and sinners and dirty and we are undeserving unless we bow down and beg His forgiveness?

Churches would never survive if they told the real message of "God loves you, that's it."
Last edited by vtmarik on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby unriggable on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:15 pm

vtmarik wrote:Churches would never survive if they told the real message of "God loves you, that's it."


Keep in mind that churches are run by people and people want to feel important and above the everyman. One way to do it.
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:18 pm

unriggable wrote:
vtmarik wrote:Churches would never survive if they told the real message of "God loves you, that's it."


Keep in mind that churches are run by people and people want to feel important and above the everyman. One way to do it.


Exactly, the Sacred above the Profane. Keep the whole religious occupation somehow better than the rest of us poor schmucks.

But that's not what God's about, just His "Followers" who have co-opted His aims for their own need for recognition and control.
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Postby Neoteny on Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:40 pm

daddy1gringo wrote:
Neoteny wrote:
Snorri1234 wrote:The thing about it is that all those subjects are impossible to imagine. Since they are impossible to imagine, I cannot even begin to fathom how they would work. They are all absurd.


:D Tis true, tis true.


You guys would both be interested in "the agnostic thread" where a lot of that was hashed out pretty thoroughly. I bumped it a while ago but it's probably back on about page 4 again by now. One of the Jesus Freaks surprisingly, and pretty effectively, argued that the most logical thing is to be agnostic. The reasoning was that the idea of God, as well as the ideas of what you have to assume began our universe if you assert that he doesn't exist (parallel universes, etc.) are all equally head-spinning and contrary to the laws of nature as we know them. I may not be saying it right, this is difinitely not my area of expertise. Ambrose, can you state it more clearly?


I haven't read the thread, (I will perhaps respond to the argument there) but I passed through the agnostic phase in my transition from theism to atheism and found it less intellectually fulfilling. I now feel that I respect the religious slightly more because they at least have the full conviction to make a decision. The weakness in agnosticism is not that they believe that we can never know the answer to the god hypothesis, but that they think it is assumed that there is an equal probability of the existance of god. I think the opposite: the odds of existence are skewed against god. I don't know if that applies to the Jesus Freaks' argument or not, but that's my view on agnosticism.
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Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:10 am

unriggable wrote:
daddy1gringo wrote:Just bumped the agnostic thread to page ! again. It's a good read.


Bumped it to page!

(remember not to shift + number)


Gimme a break1 :lol: You're too quick; I saw and edited as soon as it posted. So don't hire me for the secretarial pool.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:45 am

Neoteny wrote:I haven't read the thread, (I will perhaps respond to the argument there) but I passed through the agnostic phase in my transition from theism to atheism and found it less intellectually fulfilling. I now feel that I respect the religious slightly more because they at least have the full conviction to make a decision. The weakness in agnosticism is not that they believe that we can never know the answer to the god hypothesis, but that they think it is assumed that there is an equal probability of the existance of god. I think the opposite: the odds of existence are skewed against god. I don't know if that applies to the Jesus Freaks' argument or not, but that's my view on agnosticism.


So I wanted to respond but then I read this and saw you had said it already.
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Postby daddy1gringo on Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:17 pm

Neoteny wrote: I haven't read the thread, (I will perhaps respond to the argument there) but I passed through the agnostic phase in my transition from theism to atheism and found it less intellectually fulfilling. I now feel that I respect the religious slightly more because they at least have the full conviction to make a decision. The weakness in agnosticism is not that they believe that we can never know the answer to the god hypothesis, but that they think it is assumed that there is an equal probability of the existance of god. I think the opposite: the odds of existence are skewed against god. I don't know if that applies to the Jesus Freaks' argument or not, but that's my view on agnosticism.


Yeah, the argument deals with a lot of what you're talking about. Probabilities divided by infinity, string theory, and so on. It's already going in that direction by bottom of pg. 2 (or is that pg. @? :P unriggable) and is going strong by pg 4. I think you'll like it.
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Postby THORNHEART on Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:51 pm

an evolutionist paid a visit to a very good creationist friend of his. they hadnt seen each other in 5 years. they greeted each other warmly and the evolutionist(bob) came in to the creationists(jack) house. bob said jack ive a marvelous thing to show you but first let me tell u ive converted to athiesm...why asked bob deeply shocked and somewhat unsettled about this sudden change.ill show you said jack follow me to my study.once they got there jack open the doorthe room was illuminated by a single light hanging overhead.it cast its briliance down on a single object in the middle of the room.

a globe.

a buetifully handmade globe. set with prescious jewels and stones.it was perfect the greatest master peice bob had ever seen.he told jack this.

well said jack this is what made me believe in evolution.why said bob.well one day said jack it just appeared here in my study and its been here ever since.it must be evolution that caused it!! but but that is impossible cried bob beautiful globes dont just appear!! why not asked jack innocently...thats how our globe got here right?thats how we got here right?...why bob dont tell me you dont believe in evolution anymore!!!
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Postby MeDeFe on Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:27 pm

THORNHEART wrote:an evolutionist paid a visit to a very good creationist friend of his. they hadnt seen each other in 5 years. they greeted each other warmly and the evolutionist(bob) came in to the creationists(jack) house. bob said jack ive a marvelous thing to show you but first let me tell u ive converted to athiesm...why asked bob deeply shocked and somewhat unsettled about this sudden change.ill show you said jack follow me to my study.once they got there jack open the doorthe room was illuminated by a single light hanging overhead.it cast its briliance down on a single object in the middle of the room.

a globe.

a buetifully handmade globe. set with prescious jewels and stones.it was perfect the greatest master peice bob had ever seen.he told jack this.

well said jack this is what made me believe in evolution.why said bob.well one day said jack it just appeared here in my study and its been here ever since.it must be evolution that caused it!! but but that is impossible cried bob beautiful globes dont just appear!! why not asked jack innocently...thats how our globe got here right?thats how we got here right?...why bob dont tell me you dont believe in evolution anymore!!!

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Postby Guiscard on Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:06 pm

THORNHEART wrote:an evolutionist paid a visit to a very good creationist friend of his. they hadnt seen each other in 5 years. they greeted each other warmly and the evolutionist(bob) came in to the creationists(jack) house. bob said jack ive a marvelous thing to show you but first let me tell u ive converted to athiesm...why asked bob deeply shocked and somewhat unsettled about this sudden change.ill show you said jack follow me to my study.once they got there jack open the doorthe room was illuminated by a single light hanging overhead.it cast its briliance down on a single object in the middle of the room.

a globe.

a buetifully handmade globe. set with prescious jewels and stones.it was perfect the greatest master peice bob had ever seen.he told jack this.

well said jack this is what made me believe in evolution.why said bob.well one day said jack it just appeared here in my study and its been here ever since.it must be evolution that caused it!! but but that is impossible cried bob beautiful globes dont just appear!! why not asked jack innocently...thats how our globe got here right?thats how we got here right?...why bob dont tell me you dont believe in evolution anymore!!!


=;
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Postby unriggable on Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:09 pm

Thornheart gives a thorn to the heart with a joke-bomb.
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Postby Haggis_McMutton on Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:05 am

THORNHEART wrote:an evolutionist paid a visit to a very good creationist friend of his. they hadnt seen each other in 5 years. they greeted each other warmly and the evolutionist(bob) came in to the creationists(jack) house. bob said jack ive a marvelous thing to show you but first let me tell u ive converted to athiesm...why asked bob deeply shocked and somewhat unsettled about this sudden change.ill show you said jack follow me to my study.once they got there jack open the doorthe room was illuminated by a single light hanging overhead.it cast its briliance down on a single object in the middle of the room.

a globe.

a buetifully handmade globe. set with prescious jewels and stones.it was perfect the greatest master peice bob had ever seen.he told jack this.

well said jack this is what made me believe in evolution.why said bob.well one day said jack it just appeared here in my study and its been here ever since.it must be evolution that caused it!! but but that is impossible cried bob beautiful globes dont just appear!! why not asked jack innocently...thats how our globe got here right?thats how we got here right?...why bob dont tell me you dont believe in evolution anymore!!!



Hahaha, good one.


It`s a joke, right? ...
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Postby Neoteny on Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:03 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
THORNHEART wrote:an evolutionist paid a visit to a very good creationist friend of his. they hadnt seen each other in 5 years. they greeted each other warmly and the evolutionist(bob) came in to the creationists(jack) house. bob said jack ive a marvelous thing to show you but first let me tell u ive converted to athiesm...why asked bob deeply shocked and somewhat unsettled about this sudden change.ill show you said jack follow me to my study.once they got there jack open the doorthe room was illuminated by a single light hanging overhead.it cast its briliance down on a single object in the middle of the room.

a globe.

a buetifully handmade globe. set with prescious jewels and stones.it was perfect the greatest master peice bob had ever seen.he told jack this.

well said jack this is what made me believe in evolution.why said bob.well one day said jack it just appeared here in my study and its been here ever since.it must be evolution that caused it!! but but that is impossible cried bob beautiful globes dont just appear!! why not asked jack innocently...thats how our globe got here right?thats how we got here right?...why bob dont tell me you dont believe in evolution anymore!!!



Hahaha, good one.


It`s a joke, right? ...


I can't tell. I couldn't read it...
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Postby Snorri1234 on Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:36 pm

I think it's awesome.
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Postby Chris7He on Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:42 pm

How the f*ck did the human race emerge from two people. Evolution explains thing much better than Biblical incest.
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Postby Neoteny on Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:56 pm

I have a couple questions. People often ask, "if you don't believe in god, then what reason do you have to live?" I'd like to turn it around. Why, if god loves us so much, do we have to take this wonderful test we call life? God put us here, told us what we needed to do to get to heaven, and then let us go. What's the point? He's setting himself up for failure (I really like my premarital sex). Is he using us for his amusement? My second, related question: why bother with free will? He apparently knows some of us are going to f*ck it up anyway. He supposedly created us so why did he create some of us with weaker wills (if you consider rationalism to be a weakener). If he loves us all, does he love us atheists less than believers? That doesn't sound very godly to me.

If I were god, and I loved all my creations, I would skip the whole choose good or evil thing and go straight to the party. Beer volcano anyone?
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Postby Beastly on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:15 pm

Robin Williams on God


WHAT A GREAT ANALOGY OF GOD FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW BY ROBIN WILLIAMS NO LESS

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'
'Why do you say that?' asked the customer.

'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine loving a God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: 'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber. 'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!'- affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING!

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Postby Guiscard on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:36 pm

Beastly wrote:Robin Williams on God


WHAT A GREAT ANALOGY OF GOD FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW BY ROBIN WILLIAMS NO LESS

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'
'Why do you say that?' asked the customer.

'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine loving a God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: 'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber. 'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!'- affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING!

'Do not ask the Lord to guide your footsteps if you're not willing to move your feet!


Fatally flawed. The Barber doesn't have the quality of being 'all-barbering'. It isn't a central trait that he a) has the ability to shave and trim everyone in the world (i.e. omnipotent) and b) has the desire to shave and trim everyone in the world (omni-benevolant).

Why do theists often think those debating the problem of evil don't understand God wants people to 'come to him' or whatever? We understand what the Bible says and what Christians believe perfeclty. It is just logically impossible.

An all-loving God who knows everything and has the power to do anything cannot let suffering happen. If, by making your own personal choice to live a good life and therefore reach heavan, you achieve a perfection God CANNOT give then heis not all-powerful. If he COULD give you that but chooses not to he is not all-loving. Simple.
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Postby Beastly on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:50 pm

It is clearly stated that in order to be truly loved you have to have free choice and will... If god made us to love him, without free will, it wouldn't be real... It is also stated this is not Gods world, Yes, he started the creation, or the beginning of evolution , But he said this world belongs to Satan. For somebody to understand god, they have to have a spiritual awakening or become born again... Meaning a change of heart or belief. It has to be a choice, or it would be forced and superficial.
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Postby Guiscard on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 pm

Beastly wrote:It is clearly stated that in order to be truly loved you have to have free choice and will... If god made us to love him, without free will, it wouldn't be real... It is also stated this is not Gods world, Yes, he started the creation, or the beginning of evolution , But he said this world belongs to Satan. For somebody to understand god, they have to have a spiritual awakening or become born again... Meaning a change of heart or belief. It has to be a choice, or it would be forced and superficial.


Then he cannot create real love, so he is not all-powerful. Did the concept of real love exist outside of the universe before God then? If he cannot simply point a finger and make us have real love then he's flawed... If there is something we must attain and the only way we can attain it is through free will then it is a concept God cannot create or give himself. Therefore he is not all powerful, and (as a concept greater than God himself) perhaps we should worship your 'real love'...
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Postby Neoteny on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:56 pm

Beastly wrote:Robin Williams on God


WHAT A GREAT ANALOGY OF GOD FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW BY ROBIN WILLIAMS NO LESS

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen. It's an explanation other people will understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said: 'I don't believe that God exists.'
'Why do you say that?' asked the customer.

'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine loving a God who would allow all of these things.'

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber: 'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber. 'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'

'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me.'

'Exactly!'- affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is, people don't go to Him and do not look for Him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.'

BE BLESSED & BE A BLESSING!

'Do not ask the Lord to guide your footsteps if you're not willing to move your feet!


Plus, I seriously doubt Robin Williams said that. He's a lot funnier than that. More bad language.
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Postby Beastly on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:57 pm

ummm... If you had to force someone to love you, would it be real?

Christians can use bad language.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:57 pm

Guiscard wrote: An all-loving God who knows everything and has the power to do anything cannot let suffering happen.


This raises an interesting question "Can you love someone and let them suffer?" I'd say certainly yes. You will not enjoy their suffering, but in order for them to avoid future, more severe, suffering it is possible. For instance I love my children and I have them vaccinated. At the time, they would not think I was being benevolent for helping the doctor give them the shot, but I am both loving and allowing them to suffer.

Guiscard wrote: If, by making your own personal choice to live a good life and therefore reach heavan, you achieve a perfection God CANNOT give then heis not all-powerful.


If, by following the path that he has provided to salvation, I make it to heaven, then I owe thanks to God for making it possible. If you were lost in the woods wouldn't you thank someone who left signs for you to get home? My belief that God is all-powerful does not imply he will use that power to make everything as easy for me as possible (ie the vaccination example earlier).

Guiscard wrote:If he COULD give you that but chooses not to he is not all-loving. Simple.


Once again the path is chosen and well marked. If I choose not follow it, it is not because he doesn't love me. It's because I don't have faith in him.
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Postby Beastly on Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:00 pm

Robin Williams and the Problem of Suffering:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/johnbowen ... uffer.html
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Postby Guiscard on Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:01 pm

Beastly wrote:ummm... If you had to force someone to love you, would it be real?

Christians can use bad language.


I'm not saying it wouldn't or would be 'real' love. What I'm saying is that if the only way we can have 'real' love is to choose it of our own free will then that is something God cannot do. It is something he cannot achieve... Don't think about it on a human level. If God is all-powerful he should be able to take a person who has chosen to love him and create an identical person with the exact same feeling of love inside both of them.
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Location: In the bar... With my head on the bar

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