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the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Dukasaur on Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:58 am

https://aeon.co/essays/why-language-might-be-the-optimal-self-regulating-system
Language changes all the time. Some changes really are chaotic, and disruptive. Take decimate, a prescriptivist shibboleth. It comes from the old Roman practice of punishing a mutinous legion by killing every 10th soldier (hence that deci­- root). Now we don’t often need a word for destroying exactly a 10th of something – this is the ‘etymological fallacy’, the idea that a word must mean exactly what its component roots indicate. But it is useful to have a word that means to destroy a sizeable proportion of something. Yet many people have extended the meaning of decimate until now it means something approaching ‘to wipe out utterly’.

Descriptivists – that is, virtually all academic linguists – will point out that semantic creep is how languages work. It’s just something words do: look up virtually any nontechnical word in the great historical Oxford English Dictionary (OED), which lists a word’s senses in historical order. You’ll see things such as the extension of decimate happening again and again and again. Words won’t sit still. The prescriptivist position, offered one linguist, is like taking a snapshot of the surface of the ocean and insisting that’s how ocean surfaces must look.

Be that as it may, retort prescriptivists, but that doesn’t make it any less annoying. Decimate doesn’t have a good synonym in its traditional meaning (to destroy a portion of), and it has lots of company in its new meaning: destroy, annihilate, devastate and so on. If decimate eventually settles on this latter meaning, we lose a unique word and gain nothing. People who use it the old way and people who use it the new way can also confuse each other.

I'm taking this a little out of context. The author of that article is actually tolerant of linguistic drift.

But the last paragraph really sums up how I feel. Using a very specific word like decimate to mean something else like annihilate (for which a perfectly good word already exists) is a proposition with no up-side. A perfectly good specific word is lost and dumped into a cauldron where a miasma of similar words are already swirling, all losing their specific meanings and becoming a stew of interchangeable vaguely-similar terms.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:04 pm

tithe also means to take a tenth of; God wants to decimate your finances.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:54 pm

Anybody want a free subscription to "The Week" print edition? (US version, offer only valid in US) - I'm renewing mine and they hope to hook someone else with a freebie.
First come first served (one only).
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:11 pm

BPotW

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:14 am

I couldn't figure out how to work my pepper grinder so I just ground the peppercorns with my bear hands. I am so manly.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:35 pm

hawt
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:33 pm

BPotW

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:18 pm

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:55 am

BPotW

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby tzor on Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:01 am

Dukasaur wrote:Decimate doesn’t have a good synonym in its traditional meaning (to destroy a portion of) ...


But it's more than lost its meaning; it's lost its context. Decimation is wicked evil but that isn't obvious from its name. It was applied to military units; men who have been loyal comrades through combat. You divide them into groups of ten. Now each group has to determine WHO DIES. It's not like you just pick out ten random people out of a hundred and kill them. The people have to determine who among them must die.

It's a good example that words often carry a lot more baggage than just their specific meaning. The evolution of the context around the words is just as interesting as the evolution of the meaning of the word itself.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:08 pm

tzor wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Decimate doesn’t have a good synonym in its traditional meaning (to destroy a portion of) ...


But it's more than lost its meaning; it's lost its context. Decimation is wicked evil but that isn't obvious from its name. It was applied to military units; men who have been loyal comrades through combat. You divide them into groups of ten. Now each group has to determine WHO DIES. It's not like you just pick out ten random people out of a hundred and kill them. The people have to determine who among them must die.

I actually did not know that. I haven't studied it really, but when I visualized the process I assumed they just lined them up according to their serial number and took every tenth one numerically. Of course I don't actually know that centurions had serial numbers, but the Romans were famously obsessed with bureaucracy, so it seems reasonable to assume that they did. Even the name "centurion" betokens an act of counting.

Interesting.

tzor wrote:It's a good example that words often carry a lot more baggage than just their specific meaning. The evolution of the context around the words is just as interesting as the evolution of the meaning of the word itself.

Indeed it is.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:02 pm

Merry Christmas

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Dukasaur on Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:03 pm

Quirk wrote:Merry Christmas

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For everything else, there's Mastercard....:)
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:36 pm

tzor wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Decimate doesn’t have a good synonym in its traditional meaning (to destroy a portion of) ...


But it's more than lost its meaning; it's lost its context. Decimation is wicked evil but that isn't obvious from its name. It was applied to military units; men who have been loyal comrades through combat. You divide them into groups of ten. Now each group has to determine WHO DIES. It's not like you just pick out ten random people out of a hundred and kill them. The people have to determine who among them must die.

It's a good example that words often carry a lot more baggage than just their specific meaning. The evolution of the context around the words is just as interesting as the evolution of the meaning of the word itself.


It was by lot, which is the best way to decide who to murder. Nothing done randomly can ever be considered evil. If the dice tell me to kill somebody, who am I to disagree?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimation_(Roman_army)
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby tzor on Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:42 pm

Dukasaur wrote:I actually did not know that. I haven't studied it really, but when I visualized the process I assumed they just lined them up according to their serial number and took every tenth one numerically.Indeed it is.


They didn't have serial numbers and it's a little more complicated than this because of an odd *or rather a number not divisible by 10* number in the process.

The basic structure of the army is as follows:

Contubernium: (tent group) consisted of 8 men.

Centuria: (century) was made up of 10 contubernium with a total of 80 men commanded by a centurion.

Cohorts: (cohort) included 6 centuriae or a total of 480 fighting men, not including officers. In addition the first cohort was double strength but with only 5 centuriae instead of the normal 6.

Legio: (Legion) consisted of 10 cohorts.


So while the centuria was technically 10 groups of 8 you could rearrange them into 8 groups of 10. Then each group of ten would determine who was going to die.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:36 pm

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby jusplay4fun on Wed Dec 26, 2018 5:58 pm

Current usage of the word

The word decimation in English is often used to refer to an extreme reduction in the number of a population or force.[22]

(from Wikipedia)
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:22 am

jonesthecurl wrote:Good point. I'm hoping mrs thecurl can sort something better out.


Mother-in-law update...

We had to put her in a care home, which will frankly impoverish us very quickly. Since we put her there, she's been taken to hospital about half the time. She was in there over Xmas, went back to the Home on the 28th, and went back to hospital today, with new symptoms. That's maybe the eighth or ninth time since I came back to the US in October. Beginning to look depressingly like the last chapter of my own Mum and Dad. Mrs tc calling in at the home/hospital as appropriate on her way back to Ghana.
PS thank God for the NHS. In the US, these visits to hospital would have bankrupted us by now.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:10 am

jonesthecurl wrote:PS thank God for the NHS. In the US, these visits to hospital would have bankrupted us by now.


Technically it would bankrupt her at which point she would qualify for Medicaid. Normally that wouldn't impact you unless it was sudden because there is a "claw back" provision in the law that may make you liable for any money she would have given you up to five (I think) years before the activation of the Medicaid payments. I had to deal with all those issues when my Father had his memory loss incident and had to be placed into a home.

In my case I had the advantage of getting him to a nice state run veteran's facility with a special Alzheimer's section for the last few months of his life.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby strike wolf on Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:37 pm

So if anyone wants to know why I hate referees in college football, just watch the UCF LSU game.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:50 am

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:49 pm

BPotW

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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby sam_levi_11 on Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 am

Just realised whilst I don't really come onto this site anymore, last month marked 13 years since I joined.

I am old.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:01 pm

Happy teeniversary Sam.
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Re: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW

Postby Quirk on Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:24 pm

BPotW

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