Jesus Freaks...why do you believe?

[unriggable]

Neoteny, wouldn't that mean humans need a lot more water in their system?

[Neutrino]

Neoteny, wouldn't that mean humans need a lot more water in their system?

True, you'd have to be eating and drinking almost constantly to make up the difference in mass.

One would imagine, though, that in his heaven, it's more the feeling than the actual act.

[daddy1gringo]

The problem here, Guiscard and Neoteny, is semantics, on two different subjects.

First with regard to God being all-powerful. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, (pg 11, 17 Oct 10:59)for Christians that comes from the old-testament Hebrew “El-Shaddai” and the new-testament Greek “panto-krator.” Refer to the earlier post for details, but these terms do not create the semantic parlor game you, Guiscard, keep bringing up. The closest thing is the greek term which indicates having power or authority over all things. He has the power to know what will happen in the future, but that does not conflict at all with his being able to give us free will and place the choices that we make outside of that knowledge to see what we will do. As in the analogies I gave with a computer spreadsheet and a master chess player, he could still see the end results but those results could be fluid based on our choices. And that is just with examples from our 4-dimensional experience. It is all the more simple to accept when you realize that he is not so limited.

The second semantic problem is with the word “love.” It has many different meanings, and there are different kinds and aspects of “love.” There is a feeling of love and you’re right, Neoteny, you don’t choose that, it has a mind of its own. There is also “agape” love which generally has feelings associated with it, but is not itself a feeling. It is a choice to value another person above yourself and put their interests and happiness before your own. It is this kind of love that is meant when the Bible commands “Husbands, love your wives.” When you say “I do” you commit yourself to DO that kind of love in the inevitable times when you don’t feel it, as well as in the hopefully more frequent times when you do feel it. This kind of love, being a choice on our parts, God cannot "poof" into existence, by definition. And as I already explained, that does not conflict in the least with God being El-Shaddai and Pantokrator.

“We love, because He first loved us” “This is love, not that we loved Him, but that He loved us, and gave Himself to be the expiation for our sins” “By this we know love, that he laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for one another”

[daddy1gringo]

OK, so let's say God does one or more of these things. What would happen then, with you personally, and with the rest of the world?

I, and everyone else, would believe that supernatural gods exist.

OK, Then what? What would be the result of that?

Let me clarify my question. What would be the practical result? What changes would come of this "believing" you and everybody else are now doing? For yourself, what, if anything, would change in your actions or attitudes? For the rest of the world, what do you think would change in what they do or how they do it?

[Neutrino]

Let me clarify my question. What would be the practical result? What changes would come of this "believing" you and everybody else are now doing? For yourself, what, if anything, would change in your actions or attitudes? For the rest of the world, what do you think would change in what they do or how they do it?

Everyone would become Christian (or some wild variation thereof). Therefore they would all be eligible for entrance to heaven and so god can be happy that it saved the souls of a huge percentage of the population.

Isn't that it's objective?

[Neutrino]

He has the power to know what will happen in the future, but that does not conflict at all with his being able to give us free will and place the choices that we make outside of that knowledge to see what we will do. As in the analogies I gave with a computer spreadsheet and a master chess player, he could still see the end results but those results could be fluid based on our choices. And that is just with examples from our 4-dimensional experience. It is all the more simple to accept when you realize that he is not so limited.

That bolded part sounds pretty firm, absolute, but the rest of the text is backing off from the idea that god is completely and totally omnipotent.

Which is it?

Either god knows all and sees all (including the future), eliminating free will, or to it the future is fluid and variable, eliminating a lot of everyone's faith in the accuracy and/or translation of the Bible.

[MeDeFe]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

[heavycola]

OK, so let's say God does one or more of these things. What would happen then, with you personally, and with the rest of the world?

I, and everyone else, would believe that supernatural gods exist.

OK, Then what? What would be the result of that?

Let me clarify my question. What would be the practical result? What changes would come of this "believing" you and everybody else are now doing? For yourself, what, if anything, would change in your actions or attitudes? For the rest of the world, what do you think would change in what they do or how they do it?

God wants us to behave a certain way, and he promises eternal life. If he ever decided to show himself, or to otherwise provide any proof of his existence, hell, i'd start behaving myself. But there is a massive get-out clause, isn't there? Faith is such a clever gimmick.

[comic boy]

Its pretty lame to hide behind ignorance of Gods thought process one minute and yet quote his
intentions/meanings the next.

This was a very ignorant thing to say.. IF you can't participate like a mature person, in conversation then you shouldn't post.

Your opinion showed nothing of where I said anything. or what you thought was hiding behind gods ignorance or whatever... it made no sense. And I didn't quote shit. So maybe if you think you have something important to add, you can explain yourself instead of putting people down....

That was not civil. That was rude, and uncalled for. Go to flame Wars for that crap. OR don't participate if you can't control your emotions.

this thread and topic was not made for you to come in and give your opinion of what people believe. It's directed to believers, not to people who want to put believers down.

You clearly have trouble understanding English grammar
I had better spell it out for you;

[comic boy]

God also cannot tell time, and he also cannot Lie...

He can choose however what he wants to create.

He choose to allow us free will.... for the purpose of letting us choose to love him.

Love is always a choice. And why do you think he can't create someone to forcefully love him? He choose not to because of the wisdom he has.

You become born again.. thats when your choice shows.

Here you Quote Gods intentions/meanings

[comic boy]

I don't know, the answer to that, because I am not god, and I don't know anything about forcing someone to love me, because it is impossible for any of us to do that. However, for god, yes I believe he could create that. But what would be the purpose of doing that.

I guess believing the way I do, you would have to find out why the god of the bible created us at all.

And here you flip flop and say you are not God so how could you know.
In other words - hiding behind your ignorance of Gods meaning.

As I said before I was merely pointing out how you contradict yourself - why you keep taking the words ignorance/quote out of context and thinking them an insult I really cant comprehend. You are the one being insulting so how about reading things properly in future and engaging your brain a little before flying off the handle. Oh and you have not answered my point yet so which post is correct, the one where you say what God thinks or the one where you say its impossible?

[Neoteny]

Neoteny, wouldn't that mean humans need a lot more water in their system?

I'm about to head to animal phys so I'll answer the non-philosophical question now and do the other one later...

You guys are right in that we would need more fluid to maintain homeostasis during a constant ejaculation. However, if it's just the feeling of orgasm, no fluid is lost. I would however need more salt content to keep those neurons firing properly. Either way, if I'm god, I can add water or salt, so no big, right?

[jay_a2j]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

They are not mutually exclusive! Lets say a mother makes a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, knowing that her son doesn't like turkey, she knows when he walks in, that he will choose to eat the ham sandwich. Moments later her son walks in and grabs the ham sandwich and starts to eat it. He had the free will to choose either sandwich.... yet he chose the ham as his mother knew he would. Not exactly a perfect analogy, but just because God KNOWS what we will choose to do, doesn't mean we don't have free will to make choices!

[Snorri1234]

Good thing I don't really believe in free will in that way.

[jay_a2j]

Good thing I don't really believe in free will in that way.

Yeah, good thing someone put a gun to your head to make you post that post.

[Snorri1234]

Good thing I don't really believe in free will in that way.

Yeah, good thing someone put a gun to your head to make you post that post.

Noone did. I decide to post based on my thoughts, which are influenced solely by my past experiences, tastes, feelings, values and so on.
Free will requires determinism, because otherwise it would mean our actions are completely random.

[Neoteny]

"Can an omniscient god, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change his future mind?"

Karen Owen

[Neoteny]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

They are not mutually exclusive! Lets say a mother makes a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, knowing that her son doesn't like turkey, she knows when he walks in, that he will choose to eat the ham sandwich. Moments later her son walks in and grabs the ham sandwich and starts to eat it. He had the free will to choose either sandwich.... yet he chose the ham as his mother knew he would. Not exactly a perfect analogy, but just because God KNOWS what we will choose to do, doesn't mean we don't have free will to make choices!

If god, who created everything (the universe, us, our preferences, A PLAN) knows what we are going to do, then it is not free will. Period.

[Guiscard]

The problem here, Guiscard and Neoteny, is semantics, on two different subjects.

First with regard to God being all-powerful. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, (pg 11, 17 Oct 10:59)for Christians that comes from the old-testament Hebrew “El-Shaddai” and the new-testament Greek “panto-krator.” Refer to the earlier post for details, but these terms do not create the semantic parlor game you, Guiscard, keep bringing up. The closest thing is the greek term which indicates having power or authority over all things. He has the power to know what will happen in the future, but that does not conflict at all with his being able to give us free will and place the choices that we make outside of that knowledge to see what we will do. As in the analogies I gave with a computer spreadsheet and a master chess player, he could still see the end results but those results could be fluid based on our choices. And that is just with examples from our 4-dimensional experience. It is all the more simple to accept when you realize that he is not so limited.

The second semantic problem is with the word “love.” It has many different meanings, and there are different kinds and aspects of “love.” There is a feeling of love and you’re right, Neoteny, you don’t choose that, it has a mind of its own. There is also “agape” love which generally has feelings associated with it, but is not itself a feeling. It is a choice to value another person above yourself and put their interests and happiness before your own. It is this kind of love that is meant when the Bible commands “Husbands, love your wives.” When you say “I do” you commit yourself to DO that kind of love in the inevitable times when you don’t feel it, as well as in the hopefully more frequent times when you do feel it. This kind of love, being a choice on our parts, God cannot "poof" into existence, by definition. And as I already explained, that does not conflict in the least with God being El-Shaddai and Pantokrator.

“We love, because He first loved us” “This is love, not that we loved Him, but that He loved us, and gave Himself to be the expiation for our sins” “By this we know love, that he laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for one another”

I'm not arguing the love thing, nor am I arguing that he knows everything yet could still allow free will.

Whatever form of love, whatever definition we decide to give, it is still an imaginable concept which can a) be created by God or b)can only be achieved through our own choice.

It is theism that is placing the need to choose to do right at the centre of the argument. Beastly said he couldn't explain it, so maybe you can...

Can God create in us the same kind of love that we gain from choosing to love him of our own free will (that love being whatever semantic definition you choose)?

[MeDeFe]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

They are not mutually exclusive! Lets say a mother makes a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, knowing that her son doesn't like turkey, she knows when he walks in, that he will choose to eat the ham sandwich. Moments later her son walks in and grabs the ham sandwich and starts to eat it. He had the free will to choose either sandwich.... yet he chose the ham as his mother knew he would. Not exactly a perfect analogy, but just because God KNOWS what we will choose to do, doesn't mean we don't have free will to make choices!

What you describe is not knowledge, it's a calculation of likelihoods based on previously assembled data. The mothers belief that her son would go for the ham sandwich wasn't true until he had taken it and started eating it.

Check Wikipedia for an introduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

[Guiscard]

Thanks Neutrino, I thought I'd have to point out (again) that free will and a god that knows the future are mutually exclusive, luckily you did it for me.

They are not mutually exclusive! Lets say a mother makes a ham sandwich and a turkey sandwich, knowing that her son doesn't like turkey, she knows when he walks in, that he will choose to eat the ham sandwich. Moments later her son walks in and grabs the ham sandwich and starts to eat it. He had the free will to choose either sandwich.... yet he chose the ham as his mother knew he would. Not exactly a perfect analogy, but just because God KNOWS what we will choose to do, doesn't mean we don't have free will to make choices!

What you describe is not knowledge, it's a calculation of likelihoods based on previously assembled data. The mothers belief that her son would go for the ham sandwich wasn't true until he had taken it and started eating it.

Check Wikipedia for an introduction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

I'm not sure Jay responds to actual reason, MeDeFe... Best to give up now, really, and try and debate with some of the more intelligent posters.

[Napoleon Ier]

Free Will? Define freedom...
You will actually find free will contradicts it

[Guiscard]

Free Will? Define freedom...
You will actually find free will contradicts it

Who is this directed to?

And aren't you Catholic?

[Napoleon Ier]

Free Will? Define freedom...
You will actually find free will contradicts it

Who is this directed to?

And aren't you Catholic?

well Im playing devil's advocate for a bit

thorw in some Hue,just you know, see what that adds to the mix

Determinism is the belief that everything is caused, but is not incompatiblewith fw, since you can still be free, though your actions are determined. However, if your actions are uncaused, you arent free : it is simply spontaneous, random, spasmodic and uncontrollable, not a free action

[Guiscard]

Free Will? Define freedom...
You will actually find free will contradicts it

Who is this directed to?

And aren't you Catholic?

well Im playing devil's advocate for a bit

Don't confuse them. They're still trying to work out whether or not God can create a love equal to that of a chosen love...