Is there a god?

[Symmetry]

You didnt even watch the videos i posted to you did you? They prove that jesus is in fact a myth and therefore the bible as well. the whole religion is a fake and i can then draw from that evidence that the "almighty god" is a fake as well. Please watch the videos before you respond once again...sigh....they are like 10 minutes max i believe and are not a guy sitting there listing reasons off a note pad or something. It's an informational video with NOTHING BUT FACTS that disprove everything...

I watched the first one and didn't bother to reply to it. If you accept this utube video as conclusive proof that Jesus was a myth then you're obviously easily impressed. It's a simple rehash of an old argument that "proves" nothing. The myth of Horus, Isis and Osiris was a carryover from the Sumerian myth of Tammuz, Semiramis and Nimrod. According to the myth Tammuz/Horus was not born of a virgin as the utube movie asserts; also most scholars hold that the star in the east and the magi part was added after Christ. Like i said, you're easily impressed.

December 25th actually was the celebrated birthday of Horus/Tammuz. The New Testament account of Jesus birth had shepherds watching their flocks by night out in the open fields - no way this would have happened in the winter. Sheep were kept in a sheepcote at night during the winter months in Palestine. The "Christian" tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th originated with Constantine when he amalgamated Roman Paganism and Christianity, creating a new national religion which became the Roman Catholic Church. Pagans had to convert to this religion in which they could still celebrate their popular holy days, but in honor of different Gods. Saturnalia became Christmas and the pagan feast of Ishtar became "Easter" (Ishtar was the fertility goddess - wear do you think the rabbits and the "Easter eggs" came from?)

The utube movie was like i said a simple rehash of an old argument with a few points added and taken out of context by the producer to make it seem more absolute "proof"wise. And no, after that farce i didn't bother with the other two movies. If there are points in them you'd like to discuss i'd be happy to do so, but do your own research and don't use utube as some kind of modern day Oracle of Delphi.

I've not heard the Horus bit before, my understanding was that the dating was based on early Christian theologians.

Apologies for the wiki quoting, but the sources seem reasonably solid.

For centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born.[33] John Chrysostom delivered a sermon in Antioch c. 386 which established the date of Christmas as December 25 since the conception of Jesus (Luke 1:26) had been announced during the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy with John the Baptist (Luke 1:10-13) as dated from the duties Zacharias performed on the Day of Atonement during the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar Ethanim or Tishri (Lev. 16:29, 1 Kings 8:2) which falls from late September to early October.[6] That shepherds had watched the flocks by night in the fields in the winter time is supported by the phrase "frost by night" in Genesis 31:38-40. A special group known as the shepherds of Migdal Eder (Gen. 35:19-21, Micah 4:8) watched the flocks by night year round pastured for Temple Sacrifice near Bethlehem.[34][35]

Which would seem to disagree on several points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Date_of_celebration

[b.k. barunt]

I know better than to get in a bible debate with b.k. and daddy1gringo, just wanted to say it was interesting that you defend against the assertion that the bible promotes slavery and the inferiority of women, but chalk up the gays and adultery to "difference of opinion".

I'm willing to bet that after a couple more decades of social progress those passages will also be qualified like the ones about slavery are today.

Also, of course lack of kangaroos doesn't disprove anything, but I've got to say, it would have been a very nice move if Jesus had said at some point "And thus i speak onto you, energy is mass times the speed of light to the power of itself".
Sure they wouldn't have made much sense of it, would have come really in handy about now though. I suppose it would have kind of interfered with the faith thing though.

The Bible does not "promote" slavery, unless i missed a verse somewhere. It allowed it and gave guidelines to the Hebrews to regulate it, but nowhere in the Bible is there a verse that says slavery is a good thing. For God to allow slavery seems harsh and insensitive - to be honest i'm not comfortable with it myself, but it's a minor issue because the Bible is concerned with the life to come, not how comfortable or uncomfortable we are in this life. Acts 14:22 says that "through much tribulation shall you enter the Kingdom of Heaven", and believers are exhorted to remain in whatever state they were in when God called them:

I Corinthians 7:20-24
20 Let every man abide in the
same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a ser-
vant? care not for it: but if
thou mayest be made free, use
it rather.
22 For he that is called in the
Lord, being a servant, is the
Lord's freeman: likewise also
he that is called, being free, is
Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price;
be not ye the servants of men.
24 Brethren, let every man,
wherein he is called, therein
abide with God.

As you can see the emphasis is on not worrying about the earthly things, which is why God didn't make a big issue of slavery.

As to the inferiority of women, woman was created from the man to be a help fit for him. Yes, women do have a secondary role to play on this earth - God created humanity that way and i'm not arrogant enough to question Him on it. I'm more concerned with finding the will of God than being politically correct. As far as their spiritual status however, women are equal to men and shall be so in the afterlife:

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor
Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male
nor female: for ye are all one
in Christ Jesus.

While on this earth however, women are commanded by God to be in submission to men.

As far as homosexuality and adultery, i don't know what you mean by "chalking it up to difference of opinion". The Bible is clear that both are sin and in the 1st chapter of Romans He puts homosexuality in the lowest place as far as sin goes, i.e. absolute reprobation. After "a few more decades of social progress" this will not change in the Scriptures, although most if not all of the organized church will no doubt adapt to the social mores of the day.

[b.k. barunt]

Apologies for the wiki quoting, but the sources seem reasonably solid.

For centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born.[33] John Chrysostom delivered a sermon in Antioch c. 386 which established the date of Christmas as December 25 since the conception of Jesus (Luke 1:26) had been announced during the sixth month of Elisabeth's pregnancy with John the Baptist (Luke 1:10-13) as dated from the duties Zacharias performed on the Day of Atonement during the seventh month of the Hebrew calendar Ethanim or Tishri (Lev. 16:29, 1 Kings 8:2) which falls from late September to early October.[6] That shepherds had watched the flocks by night in the fields in the winter time is supported by the phrase "frost by night" in Genesis 31:38-40. A special group known as the shepherds of Migdal Eder (Gen. 35:19-21, Micah 4:8) watched the flocks by night year round pastured for Temple Sacrifice near Bethlehem.[34][35]

Which would seem to disagree on several points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Date_of_celebration

First of all, Chrysostom's (whoever he was . . .) sermon was delivered 61 years after Constantine created the Roman Catholic Church, giving Christianity her pagan holidays under new names. He was obviously trying to lend credence to an already popular tradition.
Secondly, there is nothing in the first chapter of Luke to indicate that Zacharias was performing the priestly duties of the Day of Atonement.
Thirdly, "frost by night" in Genesis 31:38-40 does not mean Jacob was out in the open fields with the sheep in the dead of winter. In the Middle East there are many nights cold enough for frost in the early spring or late summer, but you don't have the wicked frost winds of the winter. Also just being out in the sheep cote with the sheep in the winter would expose one to bitter enough cold and certainly some frost. I'm working on a book about the life of David right now so i've done a bit of research on weather and shepherding in the area of Bethlehem (David's birthplace). Wickipedia is a bit shoddy here on their Scripture backup - Genesis 35:19-21 says nothing about shepherds watching their flocks by night (or day) and neither does Micah 4:8.

[daddy1gringo]

These are all unsupported opinions and generalizations. Once again, that you think these are some kind of proofs, please, go back to school.

No need to be insulting. That isn't very "Christian" like.

Aw c'mon, that was pretty mild trash talk; just rollin' with the tone of the discussion. Sorry if you were offended, really.

[pmchugh]

These are all unsupported opinions and generalizations. Once again, that you think these are some kind of proofs, please, go back to school.

No need to be insulting. That isn't very "Christian" like.

Aw c'mon, that was pretty mild trash talk; just rollin' with the tone of the discussion. Sorry if you were offended, really.

Nah I just like to throw that one in every now and again. It is fun debating with someone who has to be nice to you because of their own arguments

[Nola_Lifer]

[Aradhus]

If you accept this utube video as conclusive proof that Jesus was a myth then you're obviously easily impressed.

Likewise, if you accept the bible as gods word you're obviously easily impressed.

[Boudicia]

I think the human race is still at an evolutionary stage where by they are so easily "hood winked" .

Heres a list of a few things you may not know : There is no santa,there is no Lochness monster ,Tony Blair is a liar ,Global warming is happenig , men and woman are equal ,being gay is not wrong ,having next doors cat depositing in your garden is really annoying ,invading other countries for there oil is not an answer ,there is no god or gods ,ALL profits lie to make there view heard and playing CC for too long is not healthy ........the list is endless .

My view is dont waste your time with religion go and be more productive ie give up your car and cycle instead ,put solar panels on your roof join a cooperative bank vote against polticians that encourage war ...........Global warming is happening and is a far far bigger concern then petty relgions .......thats why i now goona log off ......good day to you all

PS if you are in with oxfam or some other aid agency thats relgion based ...thats ok ,what ever keeps you going as your doing a great job

[john9blue]

I think the human race is still at an evolutionary stage where by they are so easily "hood winked" .

Heres a list of a few things you may not know : There is no santa,there is no Lochness monster ,Tony Blair is a liar ,Global warming is happenig , men and woman are equal ,being gay is not wrong ,having next doors cat depositing in your garden is really annoying ,invading other countries for there oil is not an answer ,there is no god or gods ,ALL profits lie to make there view heard and playing CC for too long is not healthy ........the list is endless .

My view is dont waste your time with religion go and be more productive ie give up your car and cycle instead ,put solar panels on your roof join a cooperative bank vote against polticians that encourage war ...........Global warming is happening and is a far far bigger concern then petty relgions .......thats why i now goona log off ......good day to you all

PS if you are in with oxfam or some other aid agency thats relgion based ...thats ok ,what ever keeps you going as your doing a great job

i was relieved to discover that you aren't from my country

[natty dread]

i was relieved to discover that you aren't from my country

Why does it matter to you, John? Is it because you disagree with that person, and you dream of thought-purifications in your own home country? Do you get a boner when you imagine living in a nation where there's only one opinion allowed? Do you wish to execute dissenters? Are you a secret fascist?

next doors cat depositing in your garden is really annoying

I don't have a garden.

[pmchugh]

I think the human race is still at an evolutionary stage where by they are so easily "hood winked" .

Heres a list of a few things you may not know : There is no santa,there is no Lochness monster ,Tony Blair is a liar ,Global warming is happenig , men and woman are equal ,being gay is not wrong ,having next doors cat depositing in your garden is really annoying ,invading other countries for there oil is not an answer ,there is no god or gods ,ALL profits lie to make there view heard and playing CC for too long is not healthy ........the list is endless .

My view is dont waste your time with religion go and be more productive ie give up your car and cycle instead ,put solar panels on your roof join a cooperative bank vote against polticians that encourage war ...........Global warming is happening and is a far far bigger concern then petty relgions .......thats why i now goona log off ......good day to you all

PS if you are in with oxfam or some other aid agency thats relgion based ...thats ok ,what ever keeps you going as your doing a great job

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/11/ ... rming.html

[Boudicia]

Total "hogwash" ..............Oil companies have alot of power and influance and pay scientist to spout rubbish to confuse people like you and the same goes for religion ....................This is whats depresing and sad that people lie to make a point or to gain prestige and power ...
Another fact is oil and gas are running out and when they do idiotic "scientists" in the pay of oil companies will have enougth money to install solar panels and wind turbines ..while the rest of the people on the planet go with out !

I dont want to go of topic so yer ..............I say i disagree with religion because of the fact that there are alot of lies that go with it .

[john9blue]

i was relieved to discover that you aren't from my country

Why does it matter to you, John? Is it because you disagree with that person, and you dream of thought-purifications in your own home country? Do you get a boner when you imagine living in a nation where there's only one opinion allowed? Do you wish to execute dissenters? Are you a secret fascist?

yes, yes, yes, and kinda

[carlsagansghost]

The thing is that every major religion references a few key ideas (a great flood from which our current lifecycle was born, for example). There is also physiological evidence of an ark-shaped hollow inside a mountain (somewhere in the Middle East, I forget exactly where). That said, carbon dating and observations of species' natural adaptation do give food for though on the 'evolution' side of things. Both evolution and theology present plausible 'catch all' theories for our origins.

The evidence on both sides is compelling but also by no means certain..

[jonesthecurl]

in fact, about 500 years ago, when the spanish landed in Central America, a native chief called Nicarao asked this question as one of the first questions: "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?" now how could that guy ever have a bible? impossable, right? so then, how did he come up with that question? it must have been told him by his ancestors, and why would his ancestors tell him? because it happened. and if the flood never happened, then how come even on the highest mountains you can find shells and fossils of sea animals?

Huh, when I run that exact quote through google "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?", I can't find any results prior to 2011.

Where did you get it from? Did you see it within the last year? It looks a bit like someone was conning you. Of course, it could be a translation error, or a problem with my search. Still, it'd be interesting to know where you got this information from.

...and what language was he speaking?
Either the Nicaraguans must have learned Spanish or the Spanish the local language before such a complex question could be asked.
Which means it wasn't one of the first questions, and must have followed considerable discussion. Which would certainly include religion.

[Symmetry]

in fact, about 500 years ago, when the spanish landed in Central America, a native chief called Nicarao asked this question as one of the first questions: "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?" now how could that guy ever have a bible? impossable, right? so then, how did he come up with that question? it must have been told him by his ancestors, and why would his ancestors tell him? because it happened. and if the flood never happened, then how come even on the highest mountains you can find shells and fossils of sea animals?

Huh, when I run that exact quote through google "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?", I can't find any results prior to 2011.

Where did you get it from? Did you see it within the last year? It looks a bit like someone was conning you. Of course, it could be a translation error, or a problem with my search. Still, it'd be interesting to know where you got this information from.

...and what language was he speaking?
Either the Nicaraguans must have learned Spanish or the Spanish the local language before such a complex question could be asked.
Which means it wasn't one of the first questions, and must have followed considerable discussion. Which would certainly include religion.

Plus, it does seem like kind of an odd question to ask as one of your openers if you're encountering a new civilisation. But hey...

[jonesthecurl]

oh, and Zimmah, did nobody ever tell you where mountains come from?
-and no, the answer does not start "Well, when a mummy mountain and a daddy mountain love each other very much..."

[jonesthecurl]

in fact, about 500 years ago, when the spanish landed in Central America, a native chief called Nicarao asked this question as one of the first questions: "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?" now how could that guy ever have a bible? impossable, right? so then, how did he come up with that question? it must have been told him by his ancestors, and why would his ancestors tell him? because it happened. and if the flood never happened, then how come even on the highest mountains you can find shells and fossils of sea animals?

Huh, when I run that exact quote through google "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?", I can't find any results prior to 2011.

Where did you get it from? Did you see it within the last year? It looks a bit like someone was conning you. Of course, it could be a translation error, or a problem with my search. Still, it'd be interesting to know where you got this information from.

...and what language was he speaking?
Either the Nicaraguans must have learned Spanish or the Spanish the local language before such a complex question could be asked.
Which means it wasn't one of the first questions, and must have followed considerable discussion. Which would certainly include religion.

Plus, it does seem like kind of an odd question to ask as one of your openers if you're encountering a new civilisation. But hey...

I'd have thought "Why are you stealing all my gold and killing my people" would probably come higher up the list.

[PLAYER57832]

The thing is that every major religion references a few key ideas (a great flood from which our current lifecycle was born, for example). There is also physiological evidence of an ark-shaped hollow inside a mountain (somewhere in the Middle East, I forget exactly where).

The most common location cited is in Turkey, but there are 1-2 others. None have truly stood up to scientific investigation, though one site has come close.

That said, carbon dating and observations of species' natural adaptation do give food for though on the 'evolution' side of things. Both evolution and theology present plausible 'catch all' theories for our origins.

FYI carbon dating is almost never used in proving evolution. Its limit is generally about 50K years.

The evidence on both sides is compelling but also by no means certain..

There is no valid theory countering evolution, just some areas where there are questions about evolution. This is an important distinction not understood, at all, by people promoting creationism.

See, its not enough to poke holes in a current theory.. you have to actually provide evidence for a counter theory... and one that doesn't just look at the most wishy-washy evidence (ignoring anything firm), claiming it is "all there is" (which the 2 Dr Morris', Institute for Creation Research, etc all do/did).

[PLAYER57832]

in fact, about 500 years ago, when the spanish landed in Central America, a native chief called Nicarao asked this question as one of the first questions: "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?" now how could that guy ever have a bible? impossable, right? so then, how did he come up with that question? it must have been told him by his ancestors, and why would his ancestors tell him? because it happened. and if the flood never happened, then how come even on the highest mountains you can find shells and fossils of sea animals?

Huh, when I run that exact quote through google "Have you heard of a great flood that destroyed all men and animals?", I can't find any results prior to 2011.

Where did you get it from? Did you see it within the last year? It looks a bit like someone was conning you. Of course, it could be a translation error, or a problem with my search. Still, it'd be interesting to know where you got this information from.

...and what language was he speaking?
Either the Nicaraguans must have learned Spanish or the Spanish the local language before such a complex question could be asked.
Which means it wasn't one of the first questions, and must have followed considerable discussion. Which would certainly include religion.

Plus, it does seem like kind of an odd question to ask as one of your openers if you're encountering a new civilisation. But hey...

Per the why? if you saw strangers arriving on a boat, you might think they are fleeing a disaster, particularly if there were something in your mythology/history to suggest this had happened in the past. He could easily have just thought these people came from a lost island or some such. Its unlikely this would have been the exact "first" question, but it might have been an early one, once full communication (or something close) was achieved, and then the story might have been retold a bit different.

Beyond that, there are many theories about destructions of new world land masses. Also, we still don't really know exactly how people came to populate all the different lands. Aside from the idea of Atlantis (which is still remotely possible, though with as much resemblance to the ancient myths as rhinocerous resemble mermaids), there are documented land drops from quakes, volcanic destructions, etc.

[Symmetry]

Meh, I did part of my Master's thesis on the reception of the Atlantis myth. Short answer is that it's not even remotely possible.

Plus, of course, as I pointed out, this particular anecdote doesn't have any history prior to 2011.

[PLAYER57832]

Meh, I did part of my Master's thesis on the reception of the Atlantis myth. Short answer is that it's not even remotely possible.

Plus, of course, as I pointed out, this particular anecdote doesn't have any history prior to 2011.

Which myth? Do you mean the comment that the Spanish were greated with this idea or the Aztec idea that there was a big flood?

The first I would agree is not really probable. The second.. well, I am not sure about Aztec, but Mayan beliefs and theories did contain such things.

[Symmetry]

Meh, I did part of my Master's thesis on the reception of the Atlantis myth. Short answer is that it's not even remotely possible.

Plus, of course, as I pointed out, this particular anecdote doesn't have any history prior to 2011.

Which myth? Do you mean the comment that the Spanish were greated with this idea or the Aztec idea that there was a big flood?

The first I would agree is not really probable. The second.. well, I am not sure about Aztec, but Mayan beliefs and theories did contain such things.

The myth of Atlantis, I meant. It's just that, a myth. There are indeed a large number of cultures that talk about a flood, but none of them talk about a flood in a way that could back-up the Biblical flood. Indeed, most of them, if they are to be believed, directly contradict the main points of the Biblical account- i.e. that everyone was wiped out save Noah and his family.

So even if you take into account stories about flooding, they don't back up the Old Testament. Rather they are at best stories about flooding.