Discussion: Does Yahweh really love us?

[Juan_Bottom]

Juan,

Do you claim that Matthew and Mark were originally in Aramaic?

Only that when it was translated into Greek, it was incorrectly translated.

Moses died well before Ezra maybe. Does it or the Tanakh as a whole apparently mean to suggest Yah commanded Israelites to take Midianites for sexual intercourse?

According to the Bible, it was Moses, acting on behalf of God's wraith.

Who claims that Yahushua was not born in Bethlehem?

Well, the excuse of the census is not historically accurate. And even if it were, it still wouldn't make sense. But the argument is that Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem. And it was John who remarked how surprised everyone was that Jesus was not born there. The others who wrote about Jesus later, claimed that he was born there. But John apparently never believed it.

A careful reading of the Gospel of John shows that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem. During the Festival of Booths, as Jesus was recruiting new followers, the crowd questioned his credentials. One asked: “How does this man have such learning, when he has never been taught?” (7:15) and Jesus replied in an extended passage to the effect that what he was teaching came from God. But when others asked: “Surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee [3], does he? Has not the scripture said that the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived?” (7: 41-42). To this question, Jesus offered no reply. Given his penchant to reply to even the most oblique questions, his omission here was telling. Had he been born in Bethlehem, Jesus probably would have said something, but he doesn’t [4]. In addition, Jesus is never referred to as “Jesus of Bethlehem”, but only as “Jesus the Nazarene”. Had he been born in Bethlehem, and given the Old Testament prophecies, surely he would have been known by the name “Jesus of Bethlehem”.



While Jesus does not specifically deny that he comes from Bethlehem, he does specifically deny that he is the “Son of David”, which is the entire basis for placing his birth in Bethlehem [5]. Jesus says: “How can the Scribes say that the Messiah is the son of David?…David himself calls him Lord, so how can he be his son?” (Mark 12: 35-37; Matthew 22:45). In other words, if the Messiah was alive when David was alive, it was impossible for him to be David’s son.



In summary, Jesus was probably born in Galilee (possibly in the village of Bethlehem in Galilee). The two Gospels that claim he was born in Bethlehem of Judea have an agenda of proving that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies, and for that reason, they misshape the truth to place him there. Jesus himself never claimed to have been born in Bethlehem, even when he was being taunted to so declare. And there is no reason to believe that he was born there.

Jephthah made a vow and felt the vow was more important that his daughter maybe. What was actually commanded by Yah Himself either way?

That's just it. Jephthah made a vow that if Yahweh would help him to win the battle, he would burn the first person to walk through his door. And when his own daughter was the first one, he burned her. God didn't value her life as much as he valued Jephthah keeping his word. God didn't feel the need or want to save her like he did with Abraham's son. If Yahweh knows the future, then he knew that helping Jephthah would result in him being forced to burn his own daughter. So the question is, did he really help Jephthah? It wasn't a direct command no, but Jephthah had no choice either way. One has to wonder why a loving God would allow that to happen, seemingly by his will.

[john9blue]

An the simple answer is no, there is no god.

...should i repeat myself...?

[edocsil]

An the simple answer is no, there is no god.

...should i repeat myself...?

It was supposed to be humor, I realized the irony of my own statement.

[Falkomagno]

So, besides omniscience, that feature of the Christian god, I think omnipotence is definitely incompatible with free will. If some being have the power of everything, certainly have the power over the will, so there is no free will in that case, and all the acts are just because that being decided previously to be done. Even more illogical if the existence of evil is added to the situation. If, by free will evil is committed, why a omnipotent being will allow that to happened? Because he choose not to? In that case is rather an evil being than a good one. Or simply it doesn’t exist.

One question to believers in an omnipotent god…can god creates its own destruction?

[Haggis_McMutton]

So, besides omniscience, that feature of the Christian god, I think omnipotence is definitely incompatible with free will. If some being have the power of everything, certainly have the power over the will, so there is no free will in that case, and all the acts are just because that being decided previously to be done. Even more illogical if the existence of evil is added to the situation. If, by free will evil is committed, why a omnipotent being will allow that to happened? Because he choose not to? In that case is rather an evil being than a good one. Or simply it doesn’t exist.

One question to believers in an omnipotent god…can god creates its own destruction?

The point about evil is a good one.

But I think that omnipotence is in itself a ridiculous statement. Like saying x is the biggest number possible. There's no such thing, there always can be a bigger number and there always can be a more powerful being.

[krchada]

I hope you are honest about this. Faith is a great thing, but when unchallenged by doubt it can turn you into a fanatic. Also, one of the easiest ways to piss someone off when you disagree with them is to tell them that you'll pray for them. Prayer should be between yourself and God. Advertising your prayers is pretty unpleasant socially, and not really all that Christian either: Matthew 6:5-6. As always, I'm up for debate on the interpretation of verses.

I was doubtful all my young man's life about faith & God. After living with my current faith in God for a few years, I also doubted a few more times just to be proven wrong by Him all the time. And I sure am sorry I offended you or any others by offering my prayers but my intentions weren't to do so at all.

Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

In my humble interpretation & opinion, those verses are talking about not praying in public or in open, just behind closed doors. I just offered my prayers & didn't exactly pray in that post. Either way, I really am sorry for offending you.

[Symmetry]

I hope you are honest about this. Faith is a great thing, but when unchallenged by doubt it can turn you into a fanatic. Also, one of the easiest ways to piss someone off when you disagree with them is to tell them that you'll pray for them. Prayer should be between yourself and God. Advertising your prayers is pretty unpleasant socially, and not really all that Christian either: Matthew 6:5-6. As always, I'm up for debate on the interpretation of verses.

I was doubtful all my young man's life about faith & God. After living with my current faith in God for a few years, I also doubted a few more times just to be proven wrong by Him all the time. And I sure am sorry I offended you or any others by offering my prayers but my intentions weren't to do so at all.

Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (NIV)

In my humble interpretation & opinion, those verses are talking about not praying in public or in open, just behind closed doors. I just offered my prayers & didn't exactly pray in that post. Either way, I really am sorry for offending you.

I'm not offended at all, just trying to point out where you might have offended others and gotten in to arguments. The verse is talking about those who make a public display of their piety when their devotion could to God could be equally offered privately. What does the public aspect add? Surely it only makes prayer more of a social, or perhaps anti-social, thing when it should really be a matter between you and God.

[Lionz]

If you are able to jump in and outside of time and able to see all of material existance as a movie in a moment, does that mean you and only you have free will? You might be able to jump in here and there and tell people stuff, but there would ultimately be individuals besides yourself making free will decisions maybe.

What is time if someone can jump in and out anyway? Is it like a tree with several branches or more like a pot on a potter's wheel with ages repeating or both or neither? What if there have been ages or cycles with subtle changes with each one? Perhaps time travel could be nicely visualized by imagining a finger along a spinning pot being lifted and then returned to a point later in a revolution.

Juan- You might find several that would argue Matthew and Mark were originally in Greek. Maybe I lean towards Hebrew or Aramaic for each myself though.

Regardless of what has been translated into Greek or English or anything else poorly, what happened in the first century? If there was not a Man who walked on earth and performed miracles and rose from the dead after being crucified, then what happened? How many of the twelve went on to become Christian martyrs and who would willingly and knowingly die for a lie, if anyone claimed they saw Him give sight to the blind or walk on water or raised from the dead and then went on to become a martyr for Him?

Regardless of what Moses or anyone has acted on, what does Numbers 31:18 really have to do with sexual intercourse?

If Yahushua was not born with Mary travelling somewhere and yet He was born in a manger, then what happened? Are you and the Police quote or whatever proposing that Mary lived south of there and was travelling north? There might be quite a jump in one or more in the quote or whatever. Do you necessarily see Yahushua as someone who would have jumped up and said He was born in Bethlehem? What does Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4 say?

And alot of stuff went down in ancient times that should seem very odd to us maybe... maybe Yah is very different from us and we should not expect to fully understand Him or why stuff has gone down like it has.

[natty dread]

And alot of stuff went down in ancient times that should seem very odd to us maybe... maybe Yah is very different from us and we should not expect to fully understand Him or why stuff has gone down like it has.

Aha! The old and reliable "mysterious ways" cop out!

Tell me Lionz, do you still believe in a 6000 year old earth?

[Falkomagno]

[notyou2]

It's all lies so the man can get more of your money. Wake up.

[BigBallinStalin]

If you are able to jump in and outside of time and able to see all of material existance as a movie in a moment, does that mean you and only you have free will? You might be able to jump in here and there and tell people stuff, but there would ultimately be individuals besides yourself making free will decisions maybe.

What is time if someone can jump in and out anyway? Is it like a tree with several branches or more like a pot on a potter's wheel with ages repeating or both or neither? What if there have been ages or cycles with subtle changes with each one? Perhaps time travel could be nicely visualized by imagining a finger along a spinning pot being lifted and then returned to a point later in a revolution.

Juan- You might find several that would argue Matthew and Mark were originally in Greek. Maybe I lean towards Hebrew or Aramaic for each myself though.

Regardless of what has been translated into Greek or English or anything else poorly, what happened in the first century? If there was not a Man who walked on earth and performed miracles and rose from the dead after being crucified, then what happened? How many of the twelve went on to become Christian martyrs and who would willingly and knowingly die for a lie, if anyone claimed they saw Him give sight to the blind or walk on water or raised from the dead and then went on to become a martyr for Him?

Regardless of what Moses or anyone has acted on, what does Numbers 31:18 really have to do with sexual intercourse?

If Yahushua was not born with Mary travelling somewhere and yet He was born in a manger, then what happened? Are you and the Police quote or whatever proposing that Mary lived south of there and was travelling north? There might be quite a jump in one or more in the quote or whatever. Do you necessarily see Yahushua as someone who would have jumped up and said He was born in Bethlehem? What does Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4 say?

And alot of stuff went down in ancient times that should seem very odd to us maybe... maybe Yah is very different from us and we should not expect to fully understand Him or why stuff has gone down like it has.

What if I didn't read any of the above?

I would have saved myself time spent better elsewhere.

[Army of GOD]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAS TO EXPLAIN

HUMAN LOGIC IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC GOD IS. IM SUPER SERIAL

GOSH

[Falkomagno]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAS TO EXPLAIN

HUMAN LOGIC IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC GOD IS. IM SUPER SERIAL

GOSH

Or, maybe is better to say: "Christian / catholic God is incompatible with the human logic"

[Army of GOD]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAS TO EXPLAIN

HUMAN LOGIC IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC GOD IS. IM SUPER SERIAL

GOSH

Or, maybe is better to say: "Christian / catholic God is incompatible with the human logic"

Probably

[BigBallinStalin]

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAS TO EXPLAIN

HUMAN LOGIC IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING WHAT THE CHRISTIAN/CATHOLIC GOD IS. IM SUPER SERIAL

GOSH

Or, maybe is better to say: "Christian / catholic God is incompatible with the human logic"

Probability of being true: 0.8731

Fixed.

[Aradhus]

He has never let me down & there was not one unanswered prayer.

I've always wanted to see god in a clown costume, big feet, red nose, green hair, smoking a balloon. Since you seem to have a direct line to the big guy, make it happen for me, k?

Or, maybe is better to say: "irrational belief completely devoid of evidence is incompatible with the human logic"

Probability of being true: Mooooo!

Fixed.

fixed fixed fixed

[natty dread]

Since my questions weren't answered in the other thread... perhaps they will be in this one?

Amino acid racemization

Amino acid racemization dating is a technique that is used to date fossilized objects up to several millions of years in age. The naturally occuring amino acid molecules usually possess a carbon centre with four different groups joining it; a hydrogen atom, the amino group, the acid group (hence the name of the class of molecule) and a side chain, which is what distinguishes amino acids. In three dimensional space, such a molecular topology can occupy one of two configurations; D (right), or L (left), which are refered to as stereoisomers and are essentially mirror images of each other. The ratio of these two isomers is initially unequal (with only one exception, naturally occurring amino acids used in polypeptide synthesis are in the L form) but over time this will decay to a more balanced state in a process called racemization, where the ratio between L and D stereoisomers will be equal. Measuring the degree of racemization and other known quantities can give you an estimated age of the sample. By measuring the racemization of the amino acid isoleucine, for example, objects can be dated up to several million years old.[2] While it is true that there can be great variability on the rate at which amino acids undergo racemization, the changes in humidity, temperature, and acidity required to make the oldest known samples conform to a young earth (under 6000 years) view are completely unreasonable.

How is this possible if the earth is only 6000 years old?

Geomagnetic reversals

A geomagnetic reversal is a change in the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field. The frequency at which these reversals occur varies greatly, but they usually happen once every 50,000 to 800,000 years, and generally take thousands of years.[12] This fact is obviously inconsistent with the young earth idea; around 171 reversals are geologically documented, which would make the earth at least several millions of years old.[4]

How is this possible if the earth is only 6000 years old?

Human Y-chromosomal ancestry

The Y-chromosome, unlike most DNA, is inherited only from the father, which means that all DNA on the human Y chromosome comes from a single person. This does not mean that there was only one person alive at that time, but that a single man's Y-chromosomal DNA has out-competed the other strains and is now - not taking into account smaller and less drastic mutations - the only one left. Because the only factor affecting the makeup of the DNA on the chromosome is mutation, measuring mutation rates and extrapolating them backwards can tell you when this man lived. Calculations by the geneticist Spencer Wells have shown that this man lived around 60,000 years ago.

How is this possible if man was created 6000 years ago?

Lack of DNA in fossils

Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), the universal carrier of genetic information, is present in all organisms while they are alive. When they die, their DNA begins to decay under the influence of hydrolysis and oxidation. The speed of this decay varies on a number of factors. Sometimes, the DNA will be gone within one century, and in other conditions, it will persist for as many as one million years. The average amount of time detectable DNA will persist though is somewhere in the middle; given physiological salt concentrations, neutral pH, and a temperature of 15 °C, it would take around 100,000 years for all the DNA in a sample to decay to undetectable levels.[20]

If fossils of the dinosaurs were less than 6,000 years old, detectable fragments of DNA should be present in a sizable percent of dinosaur fossils, especially in the Arctic and Antarctic regions where the decay of DNA can be slowed down 10-25 fold. A claim that soft tissues in a Tyrannosaurus fossil had been recovered in 2005[21] have since been shown to be mistaken,[22] supporting the idea that dinosaur fossils are extremely old.[23]

How is this possible if live dinosaurs existed any time during the last 6000 years?

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Natty it's all lies that the Devil put there to fool us. You should know this by know.

-TG

[Army of GOD]

Since my questions weren't answered in the other thread... perhaps they will be in this one?

Amino acid racemization

Amino acid racemization dating is a technique that is used to date fossilized objects up to several millions of years in age. The naturally occuring amino acid molecules usually possess a carbon centre with four different groups joining it; a hydrogen atom, the amino group, the acid group (hence the name of the class of molecule) and a side chain, which is what distinguishes amino acids. In three dimensional space, such a molecular topology can occupy one of two configurations; D (right), or L (left), which are refered to as stereoisomers and are essentially mirror images of each other. The ratio of these two isomers is initially unequal (with only one exception, naturally occurring amino acids used in polypeptide synthesis are in the L form) but over time this will decay to a more balanced state in a process called racemization, where the ratio between L and D stereoisomers will be equal. Measuring the degree of racemization and other known quantities can give you an estimated age of the sample. By measuring the racemization of the amino acid isoleucine, for example, objects can be dated up to several million years old.[2] While it is true that there can be great variability on the rate at which amino acids undergo racemization, the changes in humidity, temperature, and acidity required to make the oldest known samples conform to a young earth (under 6000 years) view are completely unreasonable.

How is this possible if the earth is only 6000 years old?

Geomagnetic reversals

A geomagnetic reversal is a change in the polarity of the Earth's magnetic field. The frequency at which these reversals occur varies greatly, but they usually happen once every 50,000 to 800,000 years, and generally take thousands of years.[12] This fact is obviously inconsistent with the young earth idea; around 171 reversals are geologically documented, which would make the earth at least several millions of years old.[4]

How is this possible if the earth is only 6000 years old?

Human Y-chromosomal ancestry

The Y-chromosome, unlike most DNA, is inherited only from the father, which means that all DNA on the human Y chromosome comes from a single person. This does not mean that there was only one person alive at that time, but that a single man's Y-chromosomal DNA has out-competed the other strains and is now - not taking into account smaller and less drastic mutations - the only one left. Because the only factor affecting the makeup of the DNA on the chromosome is mutation, measuring mutation rates and extrapolating them backwards can tell you when this man lived. Calculations by the geneticist Spencer Wells have shown that this man lived around 60,000 years ago.

How is this possible if man was created 6000 years ago?

Lack of DNA in fossils

Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), the universal carrier of genetic information, is present in all organisms while they are alive. When they die, their DNA begins to decay under the influence of hydrolysis and oxidation. The speed of this decay varies on a number of factors. Sometimes, the DNA will be gone within one century, and in other conditions, it will persist for as many as one million years. The average amount of time detectable DNA will persist though is somewhere in the middle; given physiological salt concentrations, neutral pH, and a temperature of 15 °C, it would take around 100,000 years for all the DNA in a sample to decay to undetectable levels.[20]

If fossils of the dinosaurs were less than 6,000 years old, detectable fragments of DNA should be present in a sizable percent of dinosaur fossils, especially in the Arctic and Antarctic regions where the decay of DNA can be slowed down 10-25 fold. A claim that soft tissues in a Tyrannosaurus fossil had been recovered in 2005[21] have since been shown to be mistaken,[22] supporting the idea that dinosaur fossils are extremely old.[23]

How is this possible if live dinosaurs existed any time during the last 6000 years?

You're assuming so many things, but oh well. I tried =(

[Juan_Bottom]

If Yahushua was not born with Mary travelling somewhere and yet He was born in a manger, then what happened? Are you and the Police quote or whatever proposing that Mary lived south of there and was travelling north? There might be quite a jump in one or more in the quote or whatever. Do you necessarily see Yahushua as someone who would have jumped up and said He was born in Bethlehem? What does Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4 say?

Well, I'm not trying to assume anything, I'm just saying that the story of Jesus miraculous birth in Bethlehem is likely a forgery. But other than that, I don't know. I don't want to make any assumptions or anything that the facts wont support. And I don't think speculating will help me out either. It's a real mystery.
Personally, I think that Jesus would have responded if he was born in Bethlehem. He always answers questions in the Bible, even when these questions are meant as trick questions. My instincts tell me that yes, if he was born in Bethlehem he would have said so.... but I don't know the true answer.

Regardless of what Moses or anyone has acted on, what does Numbers 31:18 really have to do with sexual intercourse?

Kidnapping little girls for sex but only after you have murdered their entire family.... Procreation was important because there was such a high mortality rate.

Regardless of what has been translated into Greek or English or anything else poorly, what happened in the first century? If there was not a Man who walked on earth and performed miracles and rose from the dead after being crucified, then what happened? How many of the twelve went on to become Christian martyrs and who would willingly and knowingly die for a lie, if anyone claimed they saw Him give sight to the blind or walk on water or raised from the dead and then went on to become a martyr for Him?

I don't really know. A.N. Wilson did a fine job of casting doubt on the idea that Jesus ever lived. Though I think he was a real person, I know that his life's story has been manipulated through the Bible. The story of Bethlehem is just one example. We don't even know if he really had 12 disciples, or if that was another borrowed idea.

[Army of GOD]

MY ARGUMENT IS IRREFUTABLE THATS WHY YOURE ALL IGNORING IT

[Juan_Bottom]

[Falkomagno]

[Aradhus]

MY PENIS IS IRREFUTABLE THATS WHY YOURE ALL IGNORING IT