High school boy refuses to wrestle girl opponent

[Fircoal]

It's sexism to feel worse when physically harming a woman than when physically harming a man? Thats news to me.

I at least would call it so.

I agree that men and women are viewed differently, but that's because they are different. It's not like races here, where the main differences are superficial. The main differences in men and women are far beyond superficial.

Different in a whole but as much in the individual. I mean the real difference is in the genitals, that's the only thing that will stay consistent.

Plus, as someone mentioned earlier, it's almost a natural thing for men to be defensive of women, or at the least to have a revulsion towards physically hurting them, at least most men. The decent ones, anyway.

It's a societal thing. One that disgusts me to no end. One sex should be "required" or feel they have to protect the other. I have a revulsion towards anyone hurting each other.

[Fircoal]

This is such a non-issue. People are here are crying "respect the girl's decision to want to wrestle". No one disrespected her decision at all nor has anyone said she can't. Now, take a page out of your own book and respect the male's decision to not wrestle her and forfeit instead. She didn't do anything wrong, and neither did the boy. /thread

Respect in what way? I mean I don't think it was the right decision, but it was his choice to make so :/

[Fircoal]

This is such a non-issue. People are here are crying "respect the girl's decision to want to wrestle". No one disrespected her decision at all nor has anyone said she can't. Now, take a page out of your own book and respect the male's decision to not wrestle her and forfeit instead. She didn't do anything wrong, and neither did the boy. /thread

AND SHE RESPECTS HIS DECISION!!!

THE MOD HAS SPOKEN.

now /thread.

For this case yea, that does pretty much end it, however it doesn't stop us from interjecting our own ideas of how it should be done and what would be ideal.

[john9blue]

This is such a non-issue. People are here are crying "respect the girl's decision to want to wrestle". No one disrespected her decision at all nor has anyone said she can't. Now, take a page out of your own book and respect the male's decision to not wrestle her and forfeit instead. She didn't do anything wrong, and neither did the boy. /thread

AND SHE RESPECTS HIS DECISION!!!

THE MOD HAS SPOKEN.

now /thread.

Yeah, but the random people on this forum have their own opinions about the situation that definitely matter and should be heard by all. Because they know best!

edit: got ninja'd by Fircoal although he was being serious

[Fircoal]

This is such a non-issue. People are here are crying "respect the girl's decision to want to wrestle". No one disrespected her decision at all nor has anyone said she can't. Now, take a page out of your own book and respect the male's decision to not wrestle her and forfeit instead. She didn't do anything wrong, and neither did the boy. /thread

AND SHE RESPECTS HIS DECISION!!!

THE MOD HAS SPOKEN.

now /thread.

Yeah, but the random people on this forum have their own opinions about the situation that definitely matter and should be heard by all. Because they know best!

edit: got ninja'd by Fircoal although he was being serious

MY OPINIONS MATTTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[radiojake]

As for me, if a woman wants to do a contact sport, so be it. If they get hurt, that's their own fault, just like it would with a man. I do not support beating women, but if they choose to do a contact sport, know the risks, etc, then go at it like you would with a guy. That simple.

I whole-heartedly agree with your sentiment

[muy_thaiguy]

No, I'm talking about wrestling. Not MMA or grappling. I was in wrestling in 8th grade. It is possible to do submission moves in wrestling, and possible to tap out.

What wrestling were you doing? In high school and college wrestling, there is no tapping out. You either pin or win by decision/points.

[Woodruff]

This kid has to wrestle a female. If he wins, what does he win? He beat a girl.

Oh, so beating a girl in sports is somehow less valuable than beating a boy?

To high school boys? Sure...absolutely. Do you really question that?

Objection! Hearsay!

Seriously though, no, I don't question that. But just because high school boys behave in a certain way, is no reason to encourage such behaviour. If people just keep thinking "well they're just high school boys, of course they behave that way" then attitudes will never be changed...

It's kind of the same argument when you're against adoption for homosexuals, because "the kids will get bullied in school because their parents are gay"...

(I'm not saying that you are, just using it as an example.)

I understand all of that and I agree with it...but my point is that if that boy DOESN'T consider how his peers will react to him, he would be VERY UNUSUAL.

Except... in fencing tournaments (my choice sport as well) its always gender separated...

Wrong. Any Open is going to be a mixed event. NACs and Nationals are always separated but many USFA meets are mixed events, especially if there are not likely going to be enough women for them to have 2 pools to determine seeding.

Nothing is worse then having to eliminate your GF round 1 in the Direct Eliminations. THAT is a lose lose scenario.

Oh damn...no doubt. Is that the voice of experience?

This kid has to wrestle a female. If he wins, what does he win? He beat a girl.

Oh, so beating a girl in sports is somehow less valuable than beating a boy?

Above age 10, yes. I'm politically incorrect but I also have a knowledge of basic human anatomy. Funny how that works.

So then you believe that if a girl above the age of ten beats a boy, that is what...humiliating? You really are in the dark ages.

Look at the ones here that disapprove of the boy's decision and would probably force him to wrestle if they had their way. I love how it's the same people that think they know everything. They have mostly the same religious and political beliefs too. "We know what is right and your freedom to make your own decisions and follow your own religion isn't important to us." Fucking pathetic.

Your logic here is astoundingly backward. We're talking about a voluntary sport...no one is forcing him to do anything. By choosing to participate in the sport, you are voluntarily choosing to abide by the competitive expectations of that sport.

The fact that I made some dude cry and tap out, made me feel great about myself. If it was a female that I made cry and tap out, I would have felt like crap.

Honestly this is the fundamental problem here.

The follow is all just my personal opinion...but yes, the fundamental problem here is tkr4lf's...that he views the two differently. Here's my take as a wrestler...both a male and a female would be voluntarily participating because they want to compete at the 1-on-1 level (that's what wrestling is all about). If tkr4lf approaches the two differently, then he is INTENTIONALLY PUTTING HIMSELF AT A DISADVANTAGE. That is HIS problem, not theirs. If tkr4lf is bothered by winning a match in ANY way differently against a female than he is against a male, then he has the problem...not them. It's not tkr4lf's fault that a female decided to wrestle, so he should feel no differently about winning in that manner. Period.

Now, all that being said..."tap out"? That was not an option when I wrestled...has it been added?

[PLAYER57832]

Now, all that being said..."tap out"? That was not an option when I wrestled...has it been added?

? It has been in place for 4 decades at least here.

when you have had enough, you pound or "tap" the mat. This is basically "giving up". Your oponent is supposed to get up. It helps prevent injuries in the heat of the moment.

[Woodruff]

Now, all that being said..."tap out"? That was not an option when I wrestled...has it been added?

? It has been in place for 4 decades at least here.
when you have had enough, you pound or "tap" the mat. This is basically "giving up". Your oponent is supposed to get up. It helps prevent injuries in the heat of the moment.

Where is "here" (I don't remember where you're at)? This is definitely news to me...in Nebraska, the only way to wussy out is to allow yourself to be pinned.

But up..."opponent is supposed to get up"? Doesn't the ref MAKE them?

[tkr4lf]

The fact that I made some dude cry and tap out, made me feel great about myself. If it was a female that I made cry and tap out, I would have felt like crap.

Honestly this is the fundamental problem here.

The follow is all just my personal opinion...but yes, the fundamental problem here is tkr4lf's...that he views the two differently. Here's my take as a wrestler...both a male and a female would be voluntarily participating because they want to compete at the 1-on-1 level (that's what wrestling is all about). If tkr4lf approaches the two differently, then he is INTENTIONALLY PUTTING HIMSELF AT A DISADVANTAGE. That is HIS problem, not theirs. If tkr4lf is bothered by winning a match in ANY way differently against a female than he is against a male, then he has the problem...not them. It's not tkr4lf's fault that a female decided to wrestle, so he should feel no differently about winning in that manner. Period.

Now, all that being said..."tap out"? That was not an option when I wrestled...has it been added?

No, I'm talking about wrestling. Not MMA or grappling. I was in wrestling in 8th grade. It is possible to do submission moves in wrestling, and possible to tap out.

What wrestling were you doing? In high school and college wrestling, there is no tapping out. You either pin or win by decision/points.

I agree, if forced to wrestle a female, I would be at a disadvantage, because I would take it easier on them. I wouldn't give it everything I had the way I would with a male. Like I said, perhaps it's the way I was raised, but a I wouldn't be worrying if I'm hurting this dude when wrestling, but would be worrying about it when wrestling a female. Sorry if that makes me sexist, but that's the way it is. Also, it's not like it's hurting anybody. The only person negatively affected by it was the boy, and the girl understood and respected it. The only person put at any disadvantage by this is the one doing it, so big deal. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

About the tapping out, as I said earlier a couple of times, I wrestled in 8th grade, not in high school. In Austin they have the AAWA, Austin Area Wrestling Association, which does 6-8 grade wrestling. Middle school wrestling. In our wrestling, you could make someone tap out, as well as the normal pin/points way of winning. I never went on to high school wrestling, as I said I only wrestled for one year, so I wasn't aware they didn't have tapping out in high school.

Either way, I did have to wrestle a blind guy. That's some hard crap if you haven't trained for it. You have to maintain body contact at all times with them by basically locking your hands with theirs, it's really not fair your first time doing it. Did any of you ever have to wrestle a blind guy? I'm curious how prevelant blind people are in wrestling.

[got tonkaed]

What would we honestly expect her to say? The biggest negative of the whole thing was that it ruined the tournament for both of them. The boy had a pretty impressive record throughout the season and probably would have been a bigger factor in the tournament if he did not essentially have an automatic loss.

The media storm that ended up following it seems like it was much rougher on the girl than it was on the boy. While she probably had much less likely of a chance to win the tournament, she did qualify on the strength of her performance throughout the season, which seems to be overlooked. It is not as if this was some preseason competition.

The boy's decision, which he had every right to make, probably negatively affected both of their chances in the tournament. Considering how much his refusal to wrestle her probably impacted her mental preparation, I don't think people should be white knighting him as much as they are.

People have every right to make an ignorant choice, but that doesn't mean they cant be criticized for it.

[muy_thaiguy]

Now, all that being said..."tap out"? That was not an option when I wrestled...has it been added?

? It has been in place for 4 decades at least here.
when you have had enough, you pound or "tap" the mat. This is basically "giving up". Your oponent is supposed to get up. It helps prevent injuries in the heat of the moment.

Where is "here" (I don't remember where you're at)? This is definitely news to me...in Nebraska, the only way to wussy out is to allow yourself to be pinned.

But up..."opponent is supposed to get up"? Doesn't the ref MAKE them?

Pennsylvania. Says so right in her location.

But same goes for here in Wyoming for wrestling, even in Div 1 wrestling there's no tapping out.

[Juan_Bottom]

Schools can't afford a separate league. They can only afford cheer leading.
I don't see any similarity between playing basketball with a younger girl and trying to physically hurt a girl who's trying to do the same to you.

What's with all these people afraid to wrestle a girl?

Have you ever wrestled? The point of wrestling is not to hurt the other player. Well, it's part of it, but not the main point. You can't just say that we'd be trying to hurt each other. Hell, most matches are decided on points anyway. You get points for technical takedowns, etc. You CAN win by making your opponent tap out, but's it happens less often.

And when did anybody say they were afraid?

I already gave my reasons. It just doesn't feel right to me to go all out on a female. Perhaps it's the way I was raised.

And the similarity between the two is that I don't want to hurt a female. Plain and simple. I have no problem playing one on one basketball with a girl. I have before. And I've gotten my ass kicked by some. So, it has nothing to do with being afraid of losing. But my specific example, where we played rough, and somebody brought his younger neice or whatever, no, I'm not going to play as rough as if it was just us guys. If I elbow a guy, I'm pretty damn sure he's not gonna cry. I have to wonder about that if I elboy a girl while playing rough. Forgive me, but making a girl cry makes me feel like crap.

And, do you know how a crossface feels? Somebody has their forearm rammed up against your face pulling your head to the side in a forceful manner. Trust me, it doesn't feel good. I could easily see a girl crying over that. Hell, my first match in my first tournament, I made a guy tap out from using the crossface. Funny thing was, he was CRYING and slamming his hand down on the mat, trying to tap out, but his coach kept saying no to the ref. Finally, after the kid continued crying and frantically slapping the map to get the pain to end, his coach agreed and I won by submission. ( I was subsequently beat by a blind person...but that's another story.) Now, this made me fell good. The fact that I made some dude cry and tap out, made me feel great about myself. If it was a female that I made cry and tap out, I would have felt like crap.

Look, bottom line is that virtually every other sport is segregated by sex. So, why not wrestling?

You just like, contradicted yourself like, a hundred times. "It's not about pain, but it is. It's not about being afraid but I would hold back because I don't want to hurt her" (because you're afraid).

This girl earned a place in this tourney. She was competing for a medal. The truth is that she was skilled, and you should be more worried about how she's going to hurt you than how you're going to hurt her.

And the bottom line is that it is high school. You can't segregate anything. So instead, just challenge your prejudices.



And if I lost to a girl, I wouldn't be embarrassed by it. Obviously she's a tough 'ole broad to even make it to the tourny... and if she had a cute face I'd prolly give her my number.

[Woodruff]

Either way, I did have to wrestle a blind guy. That's some hard crap if you haven't trained for it. You have to maintain body contact at all times with them by basically locking your hands with theirs, it's really not fair your first time doing it. Did any of you ever have to wrestle a blind guy? I'm curious how prevelant blind people are in wrestling.

Yes, I grew up wrestling blind kids because the Nebraska School for the Blind is located in the city I grew up in (Nebraska City). And you're right...the blind kids have a MASSIVE advantage, because they're used to what's going on and most of their opponents are out of their normal element. Outside of the NSftB, I've not seen a blind wrestler, though.

[Timminz]

It's sexism to feel worse when physically harming a woman than when physically harming a man?

Absolutely.

if forced to wrestle a female, I would be at a disadvantage, because I would take it easier on them. I wouldn't give it everything I had the way I would with a male.

So is this.

You are expressing the opinion that women are lesser than men: that they require protection, or to be treated differently. That is pretty much the definition of sexism.

[radiojake]

It's sexism to feel worse when physically harming a woman than when physically harming a man?

Absolutely.

if forced to wrestle a female, I would be at a disadvantage, because I would take it easier on them. I wouldn't give it everything I had the way I would with a male.

So is this.

You are expressing the opinion that women are lesser than men: that they require protection, or to be treated differently. That is pretty much the definition of sexism.

I pose this question:

I have never wrestled before (not in a competition sense, only with my brother when we were younger) - In every sense of the word, I would be completely disadvantaged and anyone with wrestling experience would be able to convincingly beat me. Would you take it easier on me because of my lack of experience? Or would the simple fact of my gender make it ok to go 100% against me? Yet if facing a girl who has had wrestling experience, you would feel compelled to 'take it easier' on them based on their gender, despite the fact that she would be better equipped to compete in a wrestling match than I would...

[Phatscotty]

This kid was homeschooled right?

[tkr4lf]

Eh, like I said, agree to disagree. Obviously many of you think I'm sexist because I would feel bad when hurting a woman, but not when hurting a man. As I said, I was raised that way. I discussed this very issue today with two different women, a neighbor of mine, a 60 something year old retired english professor, and my mom, a 50 something year old saleswoman. They both said they didn't think it was sexist. They understood that I was raised that way. They also said that there are two sides to this. On the one hand, if she wanted to wrestle with guys, then why not. Most of the men would wrestle her without a problem, some would not wrestle her due to their convictions. On the other hand, some men are raised that it is absolutely not okay to hurt a woman, in any situation. In that case, they saw no problem with a man like that not wanting to wrestle the girl. They both said that they did not see that as being sexist.

On top of all this, I don't behave like a sexist. I don't think that women should be segregated in the workplace, or any of that other sexist bullshit that people bring up. I've worked with many women, and have been friends with quite a few of them as well. So, if I'm a sexist, then I'm only a sexist in this one opinion. Oh well. I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. This is all quite relative anyway. Opinions and junk. Anyway, I'm tired of talking about it. The same stuff keeps getting said back and forth, and it's going nowhere. None of us are going to change our minds. Agree to disagree.

[BigBallinStalin]

It's sexism to feel worse when physically harming a woman than when physically harming a man?

Absolutely.

if forced to wrestle a female, I would be at a disadvantage, because I would take it easier on them. I wouldn't give it everything I had the way I would with a male.

So is this.

You are expressing the opinion that women are lesser than men: that they require protection, or to be treated differently. That is pretty much the definition of sexism.

tkr4lf isn't being sexist.

It's just uncomfortable, and I can understand since I've fooled around as a ninjer back in the day.

[got tonkaed]

This kid was homeschooled right?

He was.

[Woodruff]

This kid was homeschooled right?

Yes - why?

[Woodruff]

Eh, like I said, agree to disagree. Obviously many of you think I'm sexist because I would feel bad when hurting a woman, but not when hurting a man. As I said, I was raised that way. I discussed this very issue today with two different women, a neighbor of mine, a 60 something year old retired english professor, and my mom, a 50 something year old saleswoman. They both said they didn't think it was sexist. They understood that I was raised that way.

Of course it is because you were raised that way...no argument. But it is still sexist. In fact, I would tend to believe that most bigotry comes about because "you were raised that way" (not YOU you...the general you).

They also said that there are two sides to this. On the one hand, if she wanted to wrestle with guys, then why not. Most of the men would wrestle her without a problem, some would not wrestle her due to their convictions. On the other hand, some men are raised that it is absolutely not okay to hurt a woman, in any situation. In that case, they saw no problem with a man like that not wanting to wrestle the girl. They both said that they did not see that as being sexist.

It really DEFINES sexism, to be honest. However, as some others have said, since nobody was harmed by this single action the boy took, then I personally find it stupid but acceptable (not getting into the idea that if he does this, then he has other, more harmful, sexist ideas).

[PLAYER57832]

It's sexism to feel worse when physically harming a woman than when physically harming a man?

Absolutely.

if forced to wrestle a female, I would be at a disadvantage, because I would take it easier on them. I wouldn't give it everything I had the way I would with a male.

So is this.

You are expressing the opinion that women are lesser than men: that they require protection, or to be treated differently. That is pretty much the definition of sexism.

tkr4lf isn't being sexist.

It's just uncomfortable, and I can understand since I've fooled around as a ninjer back in the day.

Sorry, but that being "uncomfortable" is sexist. You may feel it is OK, etc. however, if you treat people differently based on gender, it is sexism.

The reason this is important is that these boys and girls will grow up. The same ones who think they should not have to play with the boys/girls are going to make similar claims in the work world. For example, I worked trails for a long time. We had to live in tents and sometimes shared bunkhouses. If there was only one bunkhouse, we all shared. I have similarly had to share accomodations on a boat. Guys, gals, homosexuals... we did not sleep in our underwear, but other than that, no real accomodation. Guess what? Not everyone was happy about that. But, here is the thing. When budgets are tight, do you want to pay for an extra accomodation, do you want to have to worry about the gender of the individuals? If you do, it tends to limit the ability of people to be hired, to work particular projects, to get promoted.

In other words, what you feel is just "being normal", LIMITs people's ability to work. That is no longer legally OK.

[PLAYER57832]

This is such a non-issue. People are here are crying "respect the girl's decision to want to wrestle". No one disrespected her decision at all nor has anyone said she can't. Now, take a page out of your own book and respect the male's decision to not wrestle her and forfeit instead. She didn't do anything wrong, and neither did the boy. /thread

First, the girl and boy here each showed grace in this situation.

BUT, why isn't that the end?

For the same reason that women being willing to wear Burkhas, live in societies where they have to obey everything their male gaurdiens say, etc doesn't mean it really and truly is OK in the greater world.

This boy is not living by himself, in an island. I get into this more in my previous post, but this is not just about one wrestling match.

Oh, and I fully believe it is a connundrum. No one should force another to violate their religious tenates. However, this too often turns into "well, we ALL have a religious prohibition against working with women", so "tough luck women, we just are a male only establishment".